HL Deb 15 July 1957 vol 204 cc1111-9

4.21 p.m.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The LORD AILWYN in the Chair]

Clause 1 [Application of principal Act to Navy and Royal Marines and certain civilians]:

THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (THE EARL OF SELKIRK) moved to leave out Clause 1 and insert the following new clause:

Records of deaths, births and marriages among armed forces and service civilians and their families overseas

".—(1) Her Majesty may by Order in Council provide for the keeping of records of deaths and births occurring, and marriages solemnised, outside the United Kingdom among, or among the families of—

  1. (a) members of Her Majesty's naval, military or air forces, or
  2. (b) persons serving Her Majesty in, or otherwise employed in any capacity connected with, Her Majesty's naval, military or air forces, or persons belonging to or employed by any organisation concerned with the welfare of members of those forces.

(2) An Order in Council under this section may provide—

  1. (a) for the transmission of certified copies of any such records to the Registrar General for England and Wales, and
  2. (b) for the transmission by the said Registrar General in such cases as may be specified in the Order of extracts from such certified copies to the Registrar General of Births, Deaths and Marriages in Scotland or the Registrar General for Northern Ireland.

(3) An entry in a record kept under an Order in Council under this section which relates to, or to the family of, a person of any description specified in paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of this section shall not be questioned on the ground that that person did not fall within any more particular description contained in the Order.

(4) After the commencement of this Act no further entry shall be made under the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Army) Act, 1879 (which, as amended under the Air Force (Constitution) Act, 1917, provides for the recording of deaths, births and marriages of members of Her Majesty's military or air forces or their families overseas), in any register kept under that Act and an Order in Council under this section may provide for the transmission of any such registers to the Registrar General for England and Wales and for the transmission by him of certified copies of entries in such registers to the Registrar General of Births, Deaths and Marriages in Scotland or the Registrar General for Northern Ireland.

(5) In this section references to a person's family shall include references to any relative, dependant or servant ordinarily living with him.

The noble Earl said: I feel I should perhaps apologise for the somewhat drastic number of Amendments standing in my name on quite a small Bill, but I think your Lordships would agree that it would be foolish to let a simple Bill of this sort go forward unless we had put it in its best possible form. These Amendments are only to clarify and simplify administration. I feel sure that those of your Lordships who dislike legislation by reference will approve of the first Amendment, which re-writes Section 2 of the Act of 1879 as amended in the Bill in a form which we think is better. The clause is now brought into operation by an Order in Council instead of by regulation for the three Services. As it covers the Registrars General in the United Kingdom, I think that is desirable. It also covers, of course, a certain number of civilians, and I think it is more important that a matter affecting them should be done by Order in Council rather than by a Service regulation. A further small point is that in future the information will be transmitted to the Registrar General by means of certified copies of entries instead of the original register being transmitted. I am sure that that is more convenient and, apart from anything else, it avoids the possibility of losing the register itself.

The only other point is that we have slightly extended the category of persons affected by this arrangement, and that, your Lordships will observe, is in the proposed Amendment at subsection (1) (b), where we have included persons employed by any organisation concerned with the welfare of members of those forces. The primary persons concerned in that would be N.A.A.F.I. representatives. I do not think there is any other point I need mention on this clause. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 1 and insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

LORD GIFFORD

I welcome the new clause moved by the noble Earl. I think it does everything that was done by the original clause and, if I may say so, it extends it and makes it much tidier. I think that on Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said he did not consider that much inconvenience had been suffered by Service personnel. I am assured that there has often been great inconvenience, where perhaps a birth certificate has had to be brought from, say, Hong Kong. It is most desirable that this Amendment should go through.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved to insert the following new clause:

Records of deaths and births on board Her Majesty's ships and Service aircraft

.—(1) Her Majesty may by Order in Council provide for the keeping of records—

  1. (a) of deaths and births occurring in any part of the world on board ships belonging to Her Majesty, and
  2. (b) of deaths and births occurring in any part of the world on aircraft belonging to Her Majesty, or any other aircraft not registered in the United Kingdom but for the time being employed for the purposes of Her Majesty's forces, and
  3. (c) of the death outside the United Kingdom of any person who, being a traveller on such an aircraft, is killed on the journey in consequence of an accident.

(2) An Order in Council under this section may provide—

  1. (a)for the transmission of certified copies of any such records to the Registrar General for England and Wales, and
  2. (b)for the transmission by the said Registrar General in such cases as may be specified in the Order of extracts from such certified copies to the Registrar General of Births, Deaths and Marriages in Scotland or the Registrar General for Northern Ireland.

(3) After the commencement of this Act no further entry shall be made under subsection (1) of section thirty-seven of the Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1874 (which provides for the registration of deaths and births on board Her Majesty's ships), and an Order in Council under this section may provide for the transmission of certified copies of entries made under that subsection to any of the said Registrars General.

The noble Earl said: This is a new clause to which I made reference on Second Reading. It deals with deaths and births in Crown ships and Crown aircraft. So far as ships are concerned, the proposals are fully complementary to the registration provisions in the Merchant Shipping Act: that is to say, they cover all ships belonging to the Crown which are not registered. If they are registered, they fall under the Merchant Shipping Act. Previously there were a few ships, such as dredgers, boom defence vessels, salvage vessels and Admiralty cable ships, which fell between the two.

So far as aircraft are concerned, this Bill is equally complementary to the registration provisions of the Civil Aviation Act, 1949: that is to say, all aircraft not registered in the United Kingdom, whether they belong to the Crown or are chartered abroad under foreign registration or Commonwealth registration, will come under the Act for the purposes contained therein. Again, transmission will be made by certified copies. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

LORD GIFFORD

I welcome this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved to insert the following new clause:

General provisions as to Service Departments records

.—(1) All such registers and copies of entries in registers or records as have been duly transmitted to the Registrar General for England and Wales, the Registrar General of Births, Deaths and Marriages in Scotland or the Registrar General for Northern Ireland in pursuance of this Act, or of section two of the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Army) Act, 1879, or of section thirty-seven of the Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1874, shall be known as "the Service Departments Registers".

(2) The enactments relating to the registration of births and deaths and marriages in England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, which contain provisions authorising the admission in evidence of, and of extracts from, certified copies of registers and duplicate registers) shall have effect as if the Service Departments Registers were certified copies or duplicate registers transmitted to the Registrar General in accordance with those enactments.

(3) An error of fact or substance in any register or other record kept in pursuance of this Act or of section two of the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Army) Act, 1879, or of section thirty-seven of the Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1874, may be corrected by an entry in the margin (without any alteration of the original entry) by such officer as may be specified in an Order in Council under this Act upon production to him of a statutory declaration setting forth the nature of the error and the true facts of the case made by two credible persons having knowledge of the truth of the case, and Her Majesty may by Order in Council provide for the correction of clerical errors in any such register or other record.

The noble Earl said: This is a small administrative arrangement. It changes the names of the Registers to Service Departments Registers. It is necessary to do this because the names of the Registers have already stood in the previous Acts. Subsection (2) makes provision for all certified copies made in the Service Departments Register to have the same validity in law as if the original registration were made in the United Kingdom. Subsection (3) provides the same facilities for correcting errors in regard to registrations as those made in the first place in the United Kingdom under the Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1953. No such provision existed in the old Act. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Insert the new clause.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

EARL JOWITT

May I ask a question on this new clause? Suppose an error has been made and two credible witnesses, on affidavit, come before the officer who, under the Order in Council, has to be satisfied, and accordingly he makes an alteration in the margin—that I think, is the scheme of the thing; he does not alter the original register; he makes an alteration in the margin—it may well turn out that the information which, in perfectly good faith, he believed to be correct to justify the alteration in the margin, was not in fact correct at all. What happens then? Is there any machinery for correcting the marginal alteration? There does not appear to be. It seems that rather an odd situation may result. What the arrangement under the existing law is I frankly do not know, but I am quite confident that the noble Earl knows all about it. Will he tell us what the position is under the existing law in this regard; and if there is no provision, how you would cope with the position supposing the situation which I suggest arose?

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

As I have said, the situation is really identical with the position in this country. I must confess to the noble Earl that I am not familiar with the law as it exists at present. But what I would suggest, as did the noble Earl, is that this is a presumption in law which can be rebutted. I may be quite wrong in that and I will certainly let the noble Earl know. If I can, I will make a statement on the Report stage, but I should guess that that is the situation.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2 [Validation of certain entries in marine register books and in registers kept by Army and Royal Air Force]:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This clause relates to the registration of children legitimated by the subsequent marriage of their parents. It has been drafted substantially in line with the existing law for such registrations within the United Kingdom. At the present time certificates cannot be issued in respect of such a legitimated person unless the birth was originally registered in the United Kingdom. Illegitimate children of Service personnel and those associated with the Services as shown in Clause 1 (1) (b) may be registered at birth locally, but there is at present no means of re-registering the child as legitimate should the mother and father marry at a late date. The clause seeks to remedy this so that in such cases the Registrars General may authorise the registration or re-registration of the birth, and the manner in which this shall be done will be laid down in Order in Council. They are entitled to do this in cases where a decision on paternity or legitimacy has been established by a court of law or information is provided by both parents. I understand that this puts it on all fours with what happens in this country at the present time. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 37, leave out (" Registration of ").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

LORD GIFFORD

I welcome this Amendment, which I think fills a gap in the Bill.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

I beg to move this drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 38, leave out from ("Deaths") to ("a") in line 39 and insert (" Registration Act, 1874 ").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This also is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 1, leave out ("subsection (2)") and insert ("paragraph (b) of subsection (1)").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 2, leave out ("apply and").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This, too, is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3 line 11, leave out ("shall apply and").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

4.34 p.m.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

I made a powerful speech on this question of legitimation on an earlier Amendment. I am sorry that I made it in the wrong place. May I make that speech again now? I beg to move.

Moved—

After Clause 2 insert the following new clause:

(" Registration of births of legitimated persons in the Service Departments Registers

.—(1) Where in the case of—

  1. (a) a person whose birth is recorded in the Service Departments Registers, or
  2. (b) a person borne outside the United Kingdom whose father at the time of the birth was a member of Her Majesty's naval, military or air forces or a person of a description falling within paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section one of this Act,
evidence is produced to the appropriate Registrar General which appears to him to be satisfactory that that person was, whether before or after the commencement of this Act, legitimated by the subsequent marriage of his parents, the said Registrar General may authorise at any time the re-registration or, as the case may be, the registration of that person's birth, and the re-registration or registration shall be effected in such manner and at such place as may be provided by an Order in Council under this Act:

Provided that, except where—

  1. (i) the paternity of the legitimated person has been established by an affiliation order or otherwise by a decree of a court of competent jurisdiction, or
  2. (ii) a declaration of the legitimacy of the legitimated person has been made by a court of competent jurisdiction in the United Kingdom,
the said Registrar General shall not authorise re-registration or registration unless information with a view to obtaining it is furnished by both parents.

(2) In this section "the appropriate Registrar General" means, in relation to a person whose father was at the time of the marriage domiciled in Scotland, the Registrar General of Births, Deaths and Marriages in Scotland, in relation to a person whose father was at the time of the marriage domiciled in Northern Ireland, the Registrar General for Northern Ireland, and in any other case the Registrar General for England and Wales.")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a drafting Amendment. It enables the Order in Council to be varied or revoked. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

After Clause 2 insert the following new clause:

(" Provisions as to Orders in Council

.—(1) Any power of making an Order in Council under this Act shall include a power of varying or revoking such an Order.

(2) An Order in Council under section one or section two of this Act may include provisions with respect to deaths or births occurring, and marriages solemnised, before the commencement of this Act.

(3) Any power conferred by this Act to make provision by Order in Council shall include power to make that provision for specified classes of cases and to make different provision for different classes of cases.")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3 [Short title, etc.]:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

These Amendments to Clause 3 are drafting. I beg to move the first Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 15, leave out from ("Marriages") to end of line 19 and insert ("(Special Provisions) Act, 1957. (2) Section two of the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Army) Act, 1879, and section thirty-seven of the Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1874, are hereby repealed.").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This also is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 23, leave out from ("force") to end of line 24 and insert ("on such date as Her Majesty may by Order in Council appoint").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

In the Title:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is consequential on the new matter which has been brought into the Bill. Perhaps I may now say one word on the question which the noble Earl asked me just now. I am given to understand that if a correction is made in error—I am referring to the provision which relates to the Service Departments Registers—another correction can be made in the same way, if it is so proved to be an error. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Line 2, leave out from ("marriages") to end and insert ("occurring out of the United Kingdom among members of the armed forces and certain other persons, or occurring on board certain ships or aircraft; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid.")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

LORD GIFFORD

This makes the Title even more complicated, but I think it is comprehensive, and I have pleasure in agreeing to the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

The Title, as amended, agreed to.

House resumed.