§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the event of the new 20 m.p.h. limit being approved by Parliament, a situation will arise when there will be speed limits of 15, 20, 30 and 40, m.p.h. in force; whether Her Majesty's Government consider that this multiplicity of speed limits can be enforced, or will assist their observance; and, if not, whether in the interests of road safety and common sense the number can be confined to one of 30 m.p.h. when it is in force.]
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I assume my noble friend has in mind the experiment with a speed limit of 20 m.p.h. on one road in Slough, to which my right honourable friend, the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, has lately agreed. My noble friend will recall that a great many controlled experiments in traffic and safety matters have been conducted in Slough, and I think it is reasonable to ascertain in this way the actual effect on traffic movement and accidents of a speed limit of 20 m.p.h. There is very little experience of such limits on public highways in this country. I am told that there are probably not more than twenty lengths of road on which speed limits of less than 30 m.p.h. are in force. Nearly all speed limits are of 30 m.p.h. and will remain so, but, as the noble Earl is aware, my right honourable friend intends to conduct an experiment in speed limits of 40 m.p.h. in the London traffic area in the near future.
§ EARL HOWEMy Lords, do I understand the noble Lord to say that there is no experience of a 20 m.p.h. speed limit? My recollection, for what it is worth, is that a 20 m.p.h. speed limit came into operation in 1896—I shall be corrected if I am wrong—and we saw the last of it in 1934. Surely, that would have given everybody a rough idea of what a 20 m.p.h. speed limit is like. Anybody who knows anything about Slough these days knows very well that there are all sorts of queer signs and regulations and "what not" in that area. Do the Government not think that a multiplicity of 1126 speed limits makes their observance and their enforcement extremely difficult? Most noble Lords know what goes on abroad, for instance, in France, where they have many different speed limits. It is difficult to secure their observance where you have a multitude of them. If you have a 30 m.p.h. speed limit only, it is much, easier to secure its observance than when you have these varying speed limits.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, would the noble Lord convey to his right honourable friend the absolutely crazy nature of this 20 m.p.h. speed limit, which is carried on upon a main trunk road of this country? Just outside Slough there are traffic lights—if the noble Lord will go there he can see them—at about every 100 yards for about a mile and a half. It is "experiment gone riot." If the Government want to carry out this experiment, surely they need not hold up the main traffic from London to the West by carrying it out on a main road of his nature.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I think that many people will have sonic sympathy with the point of view put forward by my noble friend Lord Howe. But this is only an experiment. I am sure my right honourable friend the Minister will bear those considerations in mind before he finally comes to the conclusions that he will have to reach when he has examined this experiment carefully. I am sure, too, that the point of view put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, will find some sympathy. However, I can think of no place that would be useful where one could have this experiment carried on and where the same criticism would not obtain.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, I should like to ask, out of my ignorance, what is the object of the 20 m.p.h. speed limit.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, there are certain stretches where it is imperative to have the speed limit lower than 30 m.p.h., and even lower than 20 m.p.h. in some places, such as the present road through Markyate, where I think there is a 15 m.p.h. speed limit. There will always remain stretches of road where a standard limit could not possibly be observed.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, what I asked is what the experiment is for. I understand that there may be some stretches of road where it is needed, but what is it for?
§ LORD MANCROFTWhat we are trying to find out is whether it is possible to have two different forms of speed limit without the confusion to which the noble Earl, Lord Howe, has referred.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, the noble Lord has said that there are places where it is imperative that there shall be a 20 m.p.h. limit and a 15 m.p.h. limit. May I ask the noble Lord what authority has stated that to be imperative?
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, the limits to which I have just referred have been in existence for some time. I imagine that the authority for them is the 1930 Act.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, these are new stretches of road. What authority has pronounced that it is now imperative that a 15 m.p.h. speed limit shall be observed in various places? Surely, it is an experiment, and nothing more.
§ LORD MANCROFTNo, my Lords, I do not think so. The 15 m.p.h. speed limit to which I have been referring, like the one through Markyate, or that which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, probably knows well, round about Southampton Docks, has been in force for some time; they are on the authority of the Minister of Transport, and probably under the 1930 Act.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHDoes the noble Lord know that the 15 m.p.h. speed limit at Markyate is to be done away with as a result of the by-pass? Is it proposed to have a 15 m.p.h. speed limit on the by-pass? So far as Southampton Docks are concerned, that is private property.
§ LORD MANCROFTThe noble Lord is making very heavy weather of this. I am well aware that the by-pass round Markyate will do away with the difficulty. I merely gave an example. There are many places in the country where exceptional conditions prevail, and have prevailed for a considerable time.