§ 2.41 p.m.
§ Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF WOOLTONMy Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. I have two interests to declare. I ought, in the first place, to say that my first interest is that I am an Honorary Freeman of the City of Liverpool, and in that capacity I have been asked to commend this Bill to your Lordships. I am able to do so after making a very careful study, not only of the Bill but of the needs that it seeks to meet. Your Lordships have had an opportunity, if you desired to do so, of reading the Bill which is a somewhat lengthy document, and I hope that I may be forgiven if I occupy a short time in commending the Bill to you, in view of the fact that, obviously, this is a Bill on which there is some divergence of opinion in this House.
The second reason I want to mention as a reason why I should speak to you to-day is—I do not suppose any of your 1068 Lordships will remember it—that when I was the Minister of Reconstruction I had the honour of introducing to your Lordships a Water Bill that had as its object the provision of a tap in every home in this country. It was a modest request, I think, for a civilised country to make; but obviously it would be impossible to fulfil even that very moderate purpose were the water not first collected; and, moreover, collected in the places where collection is possible. The Corporation of Liverpool have in the past earned great praise for the way in which they have dealt with this problem of water. They have very good water: it is so good that it tempts people to drink it in its natural state, which is more than one can say of a good deal of London water.
The present supplies of water in Liverpool are due to the far-sighted views of our grandfathers, but they did not realise that this area would involve a population of over 1 million people covering not only Liverpool—and this is a point to which I want particularly to draw your Lordships' attention—but the County Boroughs of Bootle and Crosby, many urban and rural districts in Lancashire and the Borough of Chorley. They did not recognise that there was to be quite such a demand. Nor did they realise at that time that the population of Liverpool were going to become increasingly industrialised and, I am glad to say, happily, were going to be increasingly sanitary. They made provision at Lake Vyrnwy, in Montgomeryshire, and at Rivington Pyke, in Lancashire, which is not now adequate. I must mention that along the Rivington and Vyrnwy aqueducts, twenty-four other authorities, in addition to those I have named, depend on the Corporation of Liverpool for supplies of water in bulk; and before long it is anticipated that six other local authorities will make demands on these Liverpool supplies.
Now I come to the whole point of this Bill. The reliable yield from the existing supplies is 61 million gallons of water a day. The average increase in the demand on the Liverpool undertaking since 1945 has been in the neighbourhood of 1 million gallons a day. By September, 1955, the demands made on the City's supply had reached the point which the Ministry of Health had foreshadowed they would reach in 1975. In the year ended March 31, 1956, the average daily demand was 1069 65 million gallons—a demand that could be met only by overdrawing the reservoirs and by obtaining temporary bulk supplies of water from Manchester. Those of your Lordships who have been interested in housing will know that the Liverpool Corporation have made very rapid and praiseworthy strides in municipal hosing estates; and, moreover, as those of your Lordships who have been to Liverpool it recent times will know, they have built large blocks of tenements within easy access of the Dock Road, where so many of the population live. All this modern housing, with its good sanitation, means increasing demands on water supplies, and much more remains to be done. There is much slum clearance to be effected which will make increased demands on sanitation. All this work, together with the development of industrial undertakings, is the reason for this Bill.
I have quoted these figures in order to make it clear that this matter is one of very considerable urgency for the City Council of Liverpool. I beg your Lordships not to postpone this issue. I believe that we in this House cannot contemplate taking a view which would prevent the people of Liverpool from having all the water that they need. We cannot contemplate taking a view that would arrest employment in Liverpool, which depends upon adequate supplies of water, for Liverpool, unhappily, is one of those places that has not shared in the universal employment of recent years. In fact, it has been rather worse off that most places in the country. In view of these statements, I feel that I need not occupy your Lordships' time in urging that you should encourage the Corporation of Liverpool to undertake what I believe to be a fair-sighted proposition.
I am conscious, however, that there has been a good deal of feeling about this scheme. Only a few days ago, I had a letter from a gentleman who asked me how, as a Christian, I could possibly bring myself to support this measure. That indicates a kind of excitement which obviously has nothing very much to do with the problem. A certain amount of emotion has been brought up on this issue—an emotion that has to do not so much with water as with a certain Welsh feeling that this City of Liverpool has 1070 done something wrong. I know that the question has arisen: is this great City of Liverpool, with its tremendous population, coming as a sort of aggressor into the Welsh hills to take possession of treasured heirlooms of the people in this village of Tryweryn. If I have not pronounced that name correctly I hope that noble Lords in this House who are Welsh-speaking will forgive my ignorance.
§ LORD OGMOREMay I say that there is not such a village. The village is Capel Celyn. The valley is Tryweryn.
THE EARL OF WOOLTONIf I may take it that your Lordships understand me, even though I mispronounce the name, perhaps I may proceed. I would just add this to what I have said. I ask those who are feeling distressed about this scheme just to contemplate Lake Vyrnwy, where the Liverpool. Corporation organised an undertaking similar to the one now proposed. Not only did they supply Liverpool with the water but they vastly improved the conditions of the people in the neighbourhood from which the water was drawn. I understand that in this new valley new houses will be built for the people who are dispossessed. New employment will arise for them, not only through the process of building (because that, I understand, will take about ten years) but afterwards in the maintenance work and the afforestation that will follow. The conditions at Vyrnwy, in which the Liverpool Corporation take great pride, I believe to be a complete and practical answer to this wave of emotionalism arising among largo numbers of people who perhaps have never had the opportunity of going to see what the Liverpool Corporation have already done.
Your Lordships will have noticed that a considerable number of people will be making representations to the Select Committee, if this Bill is allowed to go to the Select Committee. That surely is right and proper. I ask your Lordships only to let this Bill be read a second time. Let it go to the Committee as it is, and let this Select Committee do their job, which they are competent to do, without either hindrance or guidance. Then, after the Committee stage, your Lordships will have ample opportunity of making a final judgment it the subsequent stages of the Bill when it comes to your Lordships' House.
1071 My Lords, I have spoken unduly long for such a Bill. I have but one other thing to say. Some 800 acres of not very good land are to be used for this purpose, and people who are now living on that land will be dispossessed. But they will be taken care of. Other advantages will come. This water will be collected; it will be canalised; it will be regulated. Then, as it flows along the river bed into the Dee, the agricultural land in the neighbourhood will not be flooded as it is now, and great advantage will come to the area on that account. I ask that you will give this Bill a Second Reading. I beg to move.
§ Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Woolton.)
§ 2.55 p.m.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR moved, as an Amendment to the Motion for the Second Reading, to leave out all the words after "That" and to insert "the further consideration of the Bill be postponed until the Committee to be appointed by the Minister of Housing and Local Government and for Welsh Affairs 'to advise him on matters connected with the conservation and use of water resources in Wales' submits a report." The noble Lord said: My Lords, it is becoming customary in this House for every one of your Lordships to state his credentials when he intervenes in a debate. I am not altogether sure that it is a good custom: I should have thought that membership of this House was sufficient entitlement to intervene in a debate. But I am quite prepared to follow the custom. I spent over fifty years living on Liverpool water. Forty-four years ago I married a lady from the affected area—from the area from which this water is going to be taken. I have spent a good forty years tramping round this valley; therefore, I think I can speak from both sides.
§ I am very anxious to disabuse your Lordships' minds of the idea that Wales has declared war on Liverpool. Wales has not done so—not yet. The relationship between Wales and Liverpool has been for generations past most cordial and friendly. Thousands of Liverpudlians have settled in Wales, and some thousands of Welsh people have settled down in Liverpool. I am anxious that this 1072 relationship between Wales and Liverpool should continue. But I want to say, quite frankly, that this Bill is not going to help in that direction.
§ The noble Earl, Lord Woolton, can speak with some authority for Liverpool, but I am afraid that his references to Wales indicate that he cannot speak with the same authority for Wales. There is nothing more dangerous than to suggest that the opposition in Wales is based on some sentiment—that it comes from volatile Welshmen, excitable Welshmen, enthusiastic Welshmen. That is entirely wrong. It is a misleading idea, and it is exceedingly dangerous. If the Liverpool civic authorities are taking up that attitude, if they think they can brush aside the opposition because they ascribe it to sentiment, excitement and that kind of thing, then they are making a great mistake for which Liverpool may pay dearly. Welshmen are warm-hearted. They are of enthusiastic temperament. They may be demonstrative. There are occasions, however, when their impetuosity may do more harm than good.
§ A friend of mine recently watched both international rugby matches on television. Wales were defeated in both games—first by England, then by Scotland. My friend said to me: "Do you know; England have never beaten Wales; nor have Scotland. Wales have always beaten themselves. Have you not noticed how those forwards in the pack, when inside the Welsh twenty-five, knowing the impulsiveness of the Welsh, keep the ball dabbling in the pack, in the hope that some Welshman may get off-side in his excitement and that they may score three points from the penalty?" That is quite true. I hope that the Liverpool civic authorities are not trying to deceive themselves by thinking that that is the case with regard to this opposition. This opposition is not based on excitability. It is not based on the fact that Welsh people are enthusiastic and volatile. It is based on something far deeper, far more permanent. The Liverpool authorities will make a very big mistake if they do not recognise that.
§ I am rather amazed that they have not gone into this matter a little more deeply. It may be that some people in Wales are opposed to the scheme for not very good reasons, but it is the fact that there 1073 has never been such widespread dissatisfaction or resentment concerning a proposal affecting Wales since the days of Disestablishment. Something accounts for that, and it is not simply the excitability of the Welshman. What I want your Lordships to do is to try to find out what is behind this widespread opposition, which exists not only in the affected area but throughout Wales. I agree that the local authorities, when they first approached this matter, might have shown more wisdom. I believe that the clumsiness of the Liverpool authority in the initial stages, nearly two years ago, when they blundered badly in different directions, is much to blame. It is not a nice thing to find somebody trespassing on your ground and telling you that they are there because of something the Liverpool authority are doing.
§
The local authorities were not consulted. This point needs to be cleared up, because I find here, in the literature sent out by the Promoters of the Bill, this statement:
The Corporation desire to emphasise that it was only after prolonged and detailed consideration and consultation with local authorities and other bodies concerned that they decided to promote the Tryweryn scheme.
That is either true or not true. The opponents of the Bill say:
The Welsh people were not told by the Council of its intentions hot were left to infer from reports of engineers at work in Cwm Tryweryn in the Spring of 1955 that something big was afoot. Nothing was heard from Liverpool until it was able to confront Wales in December with the complete scheme …
There were rumours in the spring, but we heard nothing more until December, until the complete scheme was there. That is not a fair way to treat Wales. I do not suggest that Liverpool is a "big bully," but that is the treatment a bully metes out. I wonder whether the noble Lord can clear up this point. The Promoters speak of "prolonged and detailed consideration and consultation with local authorities." I ask: what local authorities—those affected in Lancashire or those in Wales? The local authorities in Wales inform me that they were not consulted in any shape or form, either in the local area or in the county council area. Can we expect that not to create resentment? It certainly does not help to create a good atmosphere.
§ I know that there are opponents of the scheme who oppose it because they do not accept what has been done by the Liverpool authority. They think that Liverpool are exaggerating their need for water and minimising the need for water in Wales They are suspicious and uneasy; they doubt what has been said by Liverpool, and one can understand why they are opposed to the Bill. North Wales is not a designated area for employment purposes, but there is need of schemes of work in North Wales. There must be adequate resources in North Wales, otherwise would-be developers will not come into the area. The quantity of water to be taken under this Bill would almost denude North Wales and would certainly leave North Wales much less attractive to would-be developers than it otherwise would be. Industrial development is very necessary in North Wales. There is no part of the United Kingdom where the rate of unemployment is higher than in this area, and we are anxious to have schemes there. We must retain our natural resources in order to attract would-be developers.
§ Nevertheless, I do not think for a moment that these facts explain entirely the attitude of Wales towards this Bill. For the past two or three generations there has been growing throughout Wales a feeling that her natural resources have for too long been subject to decisions by those on the other side of the border. What should be done with the natural resources of the country has been decided by people outside Wales, who have determined what proportion of natural resources should leave Wales and what should stay in Wales. The Welsh people of to-day are opposed to that state of affairs. They feel that the time has come when the Welsh people ought to have a more decisive voice in the use and disposal of Welsh resources. That is what has roused Wales—this continuous interference with Welsh resources and their use outside Wales, regardless of the consequences to Wales.
§ I know that it will be suggested by the noble Earl that certain sections of people in Wales are looked upon as fanatics. Make no mistake about it! The people behind this opposition are by no means fanatics. The finest and most respectable section of people in Wales are against this Bill, and for respectable and solid reasons. Every Government 1075 since the war, the Government led by my noble friend Lord Attlee and the Government of to-day, have recognised the need to give to Wales a greater voice in her own affairs. When the Minister of Housing and Local Government, who is also the Minister for Welsh Affairs, made his announcement on February 7 regarding the setting up of a Committee to survey the water resources of Wales and decide their future use, he recognised the need for Wales to have a greater voice. That is the reason for the opposition here. Wales to-day is insisting upon having a greater voice in the handling of her own resources. We do not think that that is an unreasonable claim to make, and surely no Member of your Lordships' House would suggest that it is unreasonable. That is the basis of the strong opposition throughout Wales to this Bill.
§ It may be said that Liverpool has to help to maintain the water supply for a very large population. Of course, she has; and Wales has no objection to Liverpool doing her job. What Wales says is that where the Welsh water should go, and what quantity ought to go, whether inside or outside Wales, is a matter entirely for Wales, and not for anybody outside Wales. If your Lordships deny that, and say that the Welsh people should have no say at all; if you say that this is one big island, you are saying that the disposal of the resources of the area must be left in the hands, in this case, of Liverpool. The position at the moment is that Wales is dissatisfied with the treatment she is getting from this country. I do not know anybody in Wales who believes in the separation of Wales from the United Kingdom, but there are those who think that Home Rule for Wales would be a good thing, would give Wales a free hand with her own resources and a more deciding voice in their use. I do not happen to be one of those who think this. There are those in Scotland, too, who think that Home Rule for Scotland might be a good thing. Meantime, we who are not in favour of Home Rule say that something has to be done to see that this kind of treatment of Welsh resources is ended.
§ My Amendment refers to an announcement made by the Minister of Housing and Local Government. 1076 If this area, the biggest catchment area in Wales, is excluded from the survey, it will make a farce of that survey. And let me say that it is creating a suspicion that the announcement was made to appease the opponents of this Bill and to get over this difficult period. Let us be quite clear on this. This is the biggest catchment area anywhere in Wales, and we suspect that what is being said is: "Make sure that this does not go into the survey. Keep it out. Give it to Liverpool in the meantime, before the survey gets under way." The exclusion of this area from that survey would be most unfair.
§ I have had sufficient experience of committees set up to do jobs of this kind to know that it takes time, and I do not suppose a survey of the water resources of Wales could be done within under a year or two. But we do not have to wait for that. The Minister, in his pronouncement, stated quite clearly that he would set up immediately technical investigations by the Ministry into the water supply of Wales. What prevents him from directing the investigators' attention to this particular area, having them concentrate there for the time being and then report back during this calendar year? That is not an unreasonable request to make: that they should concentrate on this area, and the Committee set up should go into the matter and give a decision on this particular area. If someone were to ask the investigators to go to Tryweryn Valley to look at the proposed scheme regarding the supply of water in the area, and left it to them to say whether it was a reasonable or an unreasonable scheme, they could report to the survey committee and the committee could decide. There would be, at most, I would say, a year's delay.
§ Those of us who have been members of local authorities know that we always leave a wide margin. When it is said that water is needed in six years, we who have been members of local authorities know that a margin is usually left, because it is known that anything may happen during those six years and it may have to go to seven years. Therefore, I am not satisfied that the Liverpool Corporation could not accommodate us on this issue. Here is a case where a generous gesture would help immensely. What I would ask is that the Liverpool Corporation—I do not know how far the 1077 noble Earl, Lord Woolton, can intervene later and indicate any response from them, because I agree that I placed this on the Order Paper only over the week-end—
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORI see. I do not suppose this was known about in Liverpool until yesterday, and I realise that the Liverpool Corporation are at some disadvantage if they are asked to-day to say whether they can, or cannot, accept the suggestion, because of the announcement made by the Minister of Housing and Local Government. So far as I am concerned, I am not opposed to an adjournment of this debate to give them ample time to examine the proposal made by the Minister to see whether they can agree to some accommodation. What I am anxious to avoid is that this House should simply stand behind the powerful giant in Liverpool and say: "You are right. Never mind what Wales thinks about having a hand in our affairs. We stand behind you." That will not be a good thing for the relationships between North Wales and Liverpool, and I am anxious that the good relations should continue.
A week to-day we had a long and excellent debate on the Oxford traffic problem. I noticed that in that debate twenty of your Lordships took part. I totted up the total ages of those twenty—it was rather a job to find the age of every one—and divided it by twenty, and it came to an average of seventy years and three months. I thought that was rather good going. However, I am sure that the noble Marquess who leads the House will never forget the concluding part of that debate. If ever he had, I will not say an unhappy hour, but a gruelling, it was during that hour, when the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, was insisting that he was going to force the matter to a Division, and the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, realising that a Division might at that moment mean defeat for the Government, was doing all he could to avoid it. I thought then that it was quite extraordinary that at the end of a debate of that kind we could secure such a good measure of agreement, largely because of the wise and patient intervention of the noble Marquess as the Leader of the House. I know that Oxford is a great city, and so 1078 is Liverpool; but neither of the two cities is any greater than Wales, if as great.
What I want to know, if the Government are going to intervene in this debate, is why they cannot make some effort to secure a greater measure of agreement than we have at the moment. I have no desire to divide the House on this issue, if it can be avoided. But I will be honest: if I thought I could win, I certainly should. However, I realise, as the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, did last week when he took his stand—he appreciated that he could not win, and therefore prolonged the proceedings until he arrived at a position where he avoided a Division—that the number of noble Lords supporting me may be less than those supporting Liverpool.
I should like to ask whether the Government spokesman, whoever he may be, is in a position to do anything to try to meet the Welsh claim here. Wales has no objection to Liverpool's having water from Wales. As I mentioned earlier, my wife comes from a place called Tanygrisiau, Blaenau Festiniog. There, the valley is in the process of being flooded, and the next time I go to the house from which I was married I shall be in a house at the side of the sea. The county council took no objection there. They were consulted by the electricity authority, in the way they should be consulted on all these questions, and agreement was arrived at. The same county council have been ignored by Liverpool.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORThe county council is Merioneth, and they have been ignored.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORThe noble Earl can do that later.
THE EARL OF WOOLTONThe noble Lord would prefer that I do it later? You see, my information is to the contrary.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORThat is what I want to have cleared up. I am giving to your Lordships the information that I have, 1079 and I can verify it. The local people involved in this area have been ignored, and it was only at a late stage—here we may find the point of difference—when the scheme had been fully prepared by Liverpool, that it was brought to the notice of the local authorities. That is not the time to do it. In Merioneth, not many miles from Llanuwchllyn, there is a big water scheme for electricity purposes. The same county council, having been consulted in good time, have no objection to that. What has gone wrong here, to some extent, is that Liverpool have delayed taking the action that they should have taken in the initial stages. However, I do not want us to ride off on that. I want it to be kept in mind here that there is a basic objection at the moment throughout Wales to any more taking of their natural resources by authorities outside Wales without the voice of Wales being heard and being a determining factor.
These are my last words. There is a cultural side to this question. There is such a thing as a Welsh way of life. I know that this House will not belittle that type of reference, and I trust that the local authorities will not do so either. You find that way of life more pronounced in these very areas. It is not surprising that the Welsh people feel afraid that they are going to lose that distinctive feature of Welsh life. This is the way to do it. Much of the opposition in the literary classes comes from that angle. Those interested in the National Eisteddfod view things in that way; they are worried about the preservation of the cultural life of Wales, and particularly the Welsh way of living. As I say, there is a Welsh way of life. If anyone doubts that, they can go to the rural areas of Wales. I agree that if you go to Cardiff or Swansea, that may not be so apparent. But this is in the hinterland of Wales, and there is a strong feeling throughout the whole of Wales, especially in the rural areas, that that Welsh way of life will be destroyed by this kind of intervention in the use of 1080 our resources. Whether I shall call for a Division later on or not depends upon the way the debate goes, but for the moment I will move the Amendment.
§ Amendment moved,
§ Leave out all the words after ("That") and insert ("the further consideration of the Bill be postponed until the Committee to be appointed by the Minister of Housing and Local Government and for Welsh Affairs to advise him on matters connected with the conservation and use of water resources in Wales' submits a report.")—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ 3.21 p.m.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY)My Lords, if I may intervene for a moment, I should explain that it has been found necessary to interrupt the debate on the Liverpool Corporation Bill to enable two statements to be made, as is our common practice, one which the noble Lord, Lord Mills wishes to make and one which I have to make on the remuneration of doctors. Perhaps it would be for the convenience of the House that we should have the two statements now, and then proceed with the discussion on the Bill. I am sorry if the House was not adequately informed of this. I thought that the news of the two statements had been given to the Opposition. I did not know that they did not know about them.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, the Opposition knew that a statement was to be made, but not at this time. It is unusual for us to have such statements before half-past three, and if we happen to make a statement before another place, perhaps they may have some kind of objection.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYIn this particular case, my noble friend the Minister of Power is the substantive Minister in this House, and that rule would not apply so strictly as in normal cases.