Lords Sitting of 19 December 1957

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  TRADE WITH CHINA
  3.5 p.m.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware (1) that while—according to figures issued this year by the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Trade—China is importing machinery and ancillary equipment to the value of over £400 million per annum, Britain's contribution to this total has been less than £1 million per annum largely owing to the embargo; (2) that West Germany's exports to China are now nearly twice as large as Britain's anti include electro-technical equipment and rolling-mill installations; (3) that a number of the up-to-date engineering products to which greatest attention was paid in the itinerary of the recent Chinese technical mission to Great Britain are still on the embargo list; and whether, bearing these facts in mind, Her Majesty's Government will operate an exceptions procedure in order to reduce the anomalies arising from the present export restrictions, and to advance the interests of British exporters in the China market.]
  THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD MANCROFT): My Lords, whilst not endorsing all the assertions in the noble Lord's more than usually informative Question, I can assure him that Her Majesty's Government are well aware that British exporters would like more scope for trading with China. Any exceptions to the present embargo would have to be discussed internationally in the Paris Consultative Group. Whether we should think it right to propose a particular exception to our Allies would depend, of course, on our own view of its merits.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. May I ask him whether he is aware that on the last occasion, earlier this year, when Her Majesty's Government broke away from the United States and lowered the China embargo to the level of the Russian embargo, our Allies very joyfully followed our lead; and will the noble Lord act similarly and propose to our Allies exceptions which it is quite clear they will also joyfully follow?
  LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, review of the embargo lists is, of course, a continuous process, both in London and Paris. If the noble Viscount cares to give particulars of any rejected application for an export licence which he thinks should have been granted exceptionally, Her Majesty's Government are prepared to look again at that particular case.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, is that not quite separate from the matter of the exceptions procedure which I am asking the noble Lord to consider.
  LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, it is separate, but it is a great deal more relevant.
  VISCOUNT STANSGATE: Has the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, observed the report which appears in The Times to-day of an article by Mr. Dulles, reasserting his determination to maintain a total embargo?
  LORD MANCROFT: Yes, my Lords, I saw the article.

  N.A.T.O. CONFERENCE IN PARIS
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement on the proceedings at the N.A.T.O. Conference in Paris.]
  THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF GOSFORD): My Lords, as your Lordships may be aware, the meetings of the North Atlantic Council have only just ended. I therefore regret that I am unable to make a statement to your Lordships.
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I was afraid that that might be the official Answer to-day, and I suspect that, in the meantime, most of your Lordships have seen the communiqué, which is already on the tape, issued after the meetings in Paris. I am bound to say that it is unfortunate we do not happen to be having the privilege of the other House of Parliament of debating this matter to-morrow, and doing it urgently. However, I do not think that would be possible to arrange now, in the light of the convenience of your Lordships. I must say that I feel exceedingly disappointed with some aspects of the communiqué. I hope that some parts of it can be explored with benefit, by development, but I think it would be better if I were to give notice that I will amend the terms of the Motion in my name on the Order Paper for January 22 so as to make it read:
  "To call attention to questions of Defence with special reference to the situation arising from the N.A.T.O. Conference."
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, if the noble Viscount would do so, that would be quite acceptable; and perhaps we may consult through the usual channels as to how long we shall need.
  VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I gave notice to the noble Earl, Lord Gosford, this morning that, although I realised it would be impossible for him to anticipate what might be said by the Prime Minister to-morrow in another place, I proposed to ask whether he can give an assurance that the Prime Minister will include a reference to one or two topics which are of more than usual interest and importance to us. First, will the Prime Minister say whether anything has been said in Paris about amendment of the McMahon Act? Secondly, will the Prime Minister tell us whether the Government's consent will be required before the Federal Government of Germany is armed with nuclear weapons? The third and final question is this: would the Prime Minister elucidate the pledges on which he bases his assertion that nuclear weapons will not be used without our consent—this is in special reference to the reported installation of rocket sites in Scotland?
  THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Viscount
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  for his courtesy in giving me prior notice of the questions he has put to me this afternoon, but, as the noble Viscount foreshadowed at the beginning of his remarks, I regret that I am unable to anticipate what my right honourable friend the Prime Minister will say tomorrow.
  VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I perfectly well understand that, and I thank the noble Earl.

  HANDLING OF NAVAL MATÉRIEL
  3.8 p.m.
  LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make about the first part of the Report of Sir Barclay Nihill's Committee on the Organisation for handling the Admiralty's Requirements in Matériel.]
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (THE EARL OF SELKIRK): My Lords, the Board of Admiralty have now considered the first part of the report of the Committee, under the Chairmanship of Sir Barclay Nihill, which has examined the organisation for handling the matériel requirements of the Admiralty, including the Headquarters Departments of the Controller and the Dockyards. As a result of this examination the Fourth Sea Lord, while continuing to perform his present duties in the field of supplies and transport, will, on behalf of the Controller, assume responsibility for superintendence of the Dockyards and maintenance of the Fleet. His title will be amended to "Fourth Sea Lord and Vice-Controller". This arrangement will lighten the load of the Controller and leave him with more time to devote to design and development
  It has also been decided to group the considerable number of Departments now reporting to the Controller into four main groups. Three of these—the Department of Naval Construction, the Department of Weapons and Radio, and the Department of Air Matériel—will come directly under the Controller. The fourth Department—Dockyard and Fleet Maintenance—will come under the Fourth Sea Lord

  1317
  and Vice-Controller. The Headquarters Departments of the Royal Naval Scientific Service will remain under the Controller as at present. Each of these large Departments will be under the control of a Director-General. This is intended to afford fuller delegation of authority accompanied by more effective powers of co-ordination below Board level. This should enable more rapid decisions to be made and reduce the subjects which the Controller will have to attend to personally. As this organisation becomes effective, the number of personnel at Headquarters will fall.
  LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his Answer, which I am sure will be welcome, particularly as anybody who has served in the Admiralty well knows that the Controller in the past had an intolerable burden to bear. Many have broken down under the strain.
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I have not had an opportunity of seeing this Report yet. I suppose it is in the Printed Paper Office.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: It is not a Report which will be made public: it is a purely departmental Report.
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Then I do not see how it is that a Back Bencher has been able to refer to this Report and raise questions on it. Certainly those of us who have had long experience at the Admiralty would like to be equally informed as to the detailed nature of the Report. I should have thought that the questions which have been referred to by the First Lord of the Admiralty are so important that we ought to be able to make a detailed study of them.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I can assure the noble Viscount that the existence of this Report has been referred to on a number of occasions. It has been proceeding for a year or so, and to-day the noble Lord asked me a Question which enabled me to say that certain steps have already been taken, before the Report was fully complete, to implement certain parts of it. That is all.
  VISCOUNT STANSGATE: Is it in order to refer in detail in this House to a Report before it is laid?
  SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I do not think I have referred to it in detail at all. All I have said is that certain changes in the organisation are following the investigation which has been carried out.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, in another place if this Report was mentioned at all, surely it would have to be laid? What are the Rules of this House with regard to that?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: All I have referred to is the fact that certain changes have taken place in the Department, following an examination of the Departments by a Committee, to which reference has already been made in debate.
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I think the best way of solving this matter is for us to put down a Motion that the Report be laid.
  VISCOUNT STANSGATE: Surely, it should not be necessary to put down a Motion. I do not know about the Rules. There is nothing in Standing Orders about this, so far as I know, but I should think the practice of the House must be quite clear: that, attention having been drawn to the fact that the Report has been quoted, the Minister must forthwith lay the Report, without any special Motion.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords. I have quoted no words at all from a Report. All I have said is that certain reorganisation has taken place, and I think I am quite entitled to do that without laying the Report. I am not anxious to withhold anything from noble Lords in this matter, but this does not happen to be a departmental Report which has been specifically arranged for publication.
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, the information the First Lord has given to-day (which I shall, of course, study carefully when read the text to-morrow) seems to me to be of such importance, so deliberate and so far-reaching, and raising questions of organisation as between the dockyards and the general duties of the Comptroller, and to be based largely on the Report of a Committee which has reported, apparently only on Part I of its inquiry (we have had no reference to what is going on with the rest of the Report) that there is every reason why we should have the

  1319
  Report laid before your Lordships and, I hope, before the other House of Parliament.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I should be very glad to answer any debate on this subject. I am bound to say that I think it is quite in order to have a departmental Report which is not to be laid before Parliament. I think there are many examples of that.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
  Moved, That Standing Order No. 41 be considered in order to its being dispensed with for the purpose of passing the British Nationality Bill through its remaining stages.—(The Earl of Home.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES
  3.18 p.m.
  THE EARL OF HOME THE EARL OF HOME rose to move to resolve, That the Lord Merthyr be appointed Chairman of Committees of this House for the remainder of this Session; That the Lord Merthyr do take the Chair in all Committees of the Whole House, unless where it shall have been otherwise directed by the House; That the Lord Merthyr do also take the Chair in all Committees upon Private Bills and other matters, unless where it shall have been otherwise directed by the House. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I have a duty to-day in the House which is both sad and pleasant—sad because it means turning the final page of a story of a much-loved and much-respected Chairman of Committees. Not long ago, we paid our tributes to the late Lord Drogheda, but our work moves on and we must face the future. It falls to me as Leader of the House to propose one of your Lordships to fill the vacant office of Chairman of Committees. Here, the task is pleasant because I can put before your Lordships the name of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, who I believe your Lordships will feel has all the qualities
  1320
  to enable him to fill this post with distinction; and inquiries have shown that his name would be received with general acceptance and confidence.
  My Lords, I could have put to your Lordships another name, with equal confidence, on all grounds except that of years. Lord Terrington, with his characteristic generosity, was willing to put his services at the disposal of the Leader of the House and of your Lordships' House; but he would prefer, and understood my preference for, a younger man in the post of Lord Chairman of Committees. Lord Merthyr's comparative youth gives him the prospect of a long tenure of office, which is an advantage in the office of Lord Chairman in establishing his own method of working and conduct of business—in particular that part of the work which relates to Private and local Bills where he comes in close contact with the Parliamentary Bar.
  I know that Lord Merthyr would be willing to put himself at the disposal of the House, either in his capacity as deputy to another or as Lord Chairman of Committees, if he should so be chosen: and if the latter, then he would be willing to surrender as many of his many outside duties as may be necessary to enable him to give full satisfaction to your Lordships in the office of Lord Chairman. At present, Lord Merthyr is in Nigeria on a Government mission, but he will be back in the New Year and able to serve your Lordships then. So I confidently commend Lord Merthyr to your Lordships as Chairman of Committees, and beg to move the Resolution which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  Moved to resolve, That the Lord Merthyr be appointed Chairman of Committees of this House for the remainder of this Session; That the Lord Merthyr do take the Chair in all Committees of the Whole House, unless where it shall have been otherwise directed by the House; That the Lord Merthyr do also take the Chair in all Committees upon Private Bills and other matters, unless where it shall have been otherwise directed by the House.—(The Earl of Home.)
  3.20 p.m.
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, my conversations on this side of the House enable

  1321
  me to say that we are all very strongly in favour of the recommendation which the noble Leader has put before us today. We regret very much, as he does, the sad reason for its being necessary; but we have already paid our sincere tribute to the late Chairman of Committees. From the point of view of the possibility of continuity and added experience of the changing work of the House, the selection of the noble Lord is a very great thing. We have each individually learned to respect his integrity and sincerity, as well as his legal and Parliamentary qualifications; and in view of the manner in which he has indicated to the noble Earl the Leader of the House the sacrifices that he is prepared to make in regard to his other appointments I believe that the House would do well to appoint him.
  At the same time, I should like most heartily to join in the tribute which the noble Earl the Leader of the House has paid to our noble friend Lord Terrington. He is a man known to us all for his general capacity, not only in this House but in other fields, especially in the field of reconciliation; and the part of his work which will live long after him (and speak from my own knowledge) is some of his industrial decisions. I am glad to know that he feels able to put himself at the disposal of the House, as he has indicated to the noble Earl the Leader of the House. That is typical of h s general services to your Lordships in the past. I hope that the return of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, to us will not be too long delayed, so that we may have the benefit of the commencement of his term of service.
  3.23 p.m.
  LORD REA: My Lords, I should like to support the noble Viscount who has just spoken in expressing approval of the choice made by the noble Earl the Leader of the House in selecting the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, for this position. The choice must in one sense have been an easy one, for his impartiality, ability and clarity are quite outstanding; and, if I may speak for those on this side of the House, the fact that he sat on the Conservative Benches gave no indication of any political bias in his mind which could in any way be regrettable In fact, we noted that normally
  1322
  he sat as far as possible from the Conservative Front Bench.
  In another sense the choice must have been difficult, because your Lordships' House is in the fortunate position of having Deputy Chairmen of great ability, from whom more than one might have been chosen with equal pleasure to us. I believe we shall all agree that the tribute kindly paid by the noble Earl the Leader of the House and the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, to my noble friend on these Benches is well deserved. We all welcome the appointment of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, and I am sure that my noble friend Lord Terrington will join me in supporting him from these Benches in every way we possibly can.
  LORD TERRINGTON: My Lords, the noble Earl the Leader of the House informed me that he was going to mention "another Peer," but I understood that the mention was to be anonymous, and if he had not mentioned my name my natural modesty would, as usual, have kept me silent on these Benches. As it is, may I be allowed to say how much I welcome the Motion moved by the noble Earl? Some of your Lordships may have noticed that in recent times, whenever the House was in session on Wednesday afternoon, a small gathering of Peers took place in the Prince's Chamber at 4.30. If any noble Lord had had the curiosity to come and see what was going on, he would have found the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, endeavouring to organise some discipline among a rather unruly squad of Deputy Chairmen. If the same noble Lord had had the further curiosity to look over the shoulder of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, he would have seen what looked like a black book, in which the noble Lord kept his engagements, and might well have thought that the object of the exercise was for the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, to push his work on to other shoulders. In fact he was always ready to take over all the chores that fall to Deputy Chairmen—not only his own but those of others also. My only feeling of uneasiness is that with a Lord Chairman of Committees who is so energetic and ubiquitous as Lord Merthyr, it might be found that the appointment of further Deputy Chairmen would be a work of supererogation, and I should regret that very much.

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  It is only a few days since we heard moving tributes paid to the late Lord Drogheda. As the noble Earl the Leader of the House has so rightly said, he was a friend of all of us. It would perhaps be an impertinence for any individual to claim a special relationship with him, but it was inevitable that those of us who were his deputies came into close contact with him and had the privilege of his confidence. I can say with complete confidence that I know the late Lord Drogheda would enthusiastically welcome the appointment of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, as his successor—and I do not think that I can pay any more sincere or higher compliment to the noble Lord.
  On Question, Motion agreed to, nemine dissentiente, and ordered accordingly.

  HOUSING (FINANCIAL PROVISIONS) BILL [H.L.]
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate certain enactments relating to the giving of financial assistance for the provision of housing accommodation and to other financial matters. In moving the First Reading of this Consolidation Bill, may I say one word? It is the last Consolidation Bill in regard to which I shall move any stage this year, and I should like your Lordships to allow me to convey to Parliamentary Counsel the appreciation of this House of the great and assiduous work that they have done during the year in the field of consolidation. My late noble and learned friend Lord Jowitt had this matter very near to his heart, and I want to tresspass on your Lordships' time for only a moment to say that the work is continuing_ I believe, according to his desire. I beg to move.
  Moved, that the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE (MARINERS) AMENDMENT REGULATIONS, 1957
  3.28 p.m.
  LORD CHESHAM LORD CHESHAM rose to move, That the draft National Insurance (Mariners) Amendment Regulations, 1957, be
  1324
  approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, with the leave of the House and for your Lordships' convenience as well as my own in trying to make brief and simple, as best I can, a matter which is somewhat complicated, I should like to speak about both sets of regulations standing in my name on the Order Paper. The Amending Regulations (which we hope to bring into operation on 3rd February, 1958) achieve two things. They alter the amount of the National Insurance contribution paid by a ship-owner for a foreign-going seaman who is not domiciled in the United Kingdom from three-fifths of the employer's share of a normal National Insurance contribution to one half. Secondly, they increase the reduction in the amount of the National Insurance contribution paid by a shipowner for a foreign-going seaman who is domiciled in the United Kingdom from 5½d. to 8d. for adults on the National Insurance side and ½d. to 1d. on the Industrial Injuries side.
  Your Lordships are of course aware that the rates of National Insurance contributions and benefits are shortly to be substantially increased. There have been, for very many years, rules for reducing the amount of contributions paid by ship-owners because they are obliged, under the Merchant Shipping Acts, to provide certain services for seamen aboard ship. For instance, they have to provide free medical attention and maintenance while seamen are sick or injured, and it therefore follows that the liability to pay sickness benefit and injury benefit from the National Insurance Funds is correspondingly reduced. The reduction was fixed at 6d. in 1948 on the suggestion of the Government Actuary, and having since remained unchanged, the reduction is now to be brought up to date in the light of the forthcoming changes in National Insurance contributions. The reduction proposed is 11d. Eightpence of this is granted in the National Insurance Regulations, 1d. in the Industrial Injuries Regulations and the remaining 2d. has already been granted in National Health Service Regulations which came into force on September 2.
  The Regulations have been placed in draft before the Shipping Federation, which represents owners, and the National Maritime Board, which represents owners

  1325
  and trade unions. Both these organisations have confirmed that the proposals are acceptable to them. Accordingly I hope that, with this explanation, your Lordships will approve these Regulations. I beg to move that the first of them be now approved.
  Moved, That the draft National Insurance (Mariners) Amendment Regulations, 1957, be approved.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE (INDUSTRIAL INJURIES) (MARINERS) AMENDMENT REGULATIONS, 1957
  3.31 p.m.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that these Regulations be approved.
  Moved, That the draft National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) (Mariners) Amendment Regulations, 1957, be approved.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  PNEUMOCONIOSIS AND BYSSINOSIS BENEFIT AMENDMENT SCHEME, 1957
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this is the third set of amending Orders which have been made under the Pneumoconiosis and Byssinosis Benefit Act, 1951. This Act, of course, applies only to cases in which the disease was contracted as a result of employment before July 5, 1948. Those persons who contracted the disease as a result of employment after that date are dealt with under the Industrial Injuries Act. The purpose of this Order is to give effect to certain amendments made by the two National Insurance Acts of 1957. Broadly speaking, the Order does three things. Firstly, it introduces a new dependency condition for wives brought in under the National Insurance Act, 195.7. Secondly, it reintroduces medical examination by two doctors, instead of one. This has not previously been possible, on account of the load of work which arose as a result of the previous amending scheme of 1954, under which benefit was extended to persons partially disabled as well as to those totally disabled. Thirdly, it enables persons suffering from byssinosis to qualify for benefit
  1326
  after ten years, instead of twenty years as at present. These changes are wholly beneficial, and I do not think the House will have any difficulty in agreeing them. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the draft Pneumoconiosis and Byssinosis Benefit Amendment Scheme, 1957, be approved.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, I should like to say a word on how much we welcome this Scheme. It certainly does not go as far as we should like it to go, but it makes some improvement for those poor fellows who have been suffering for so long from these terrible diseases. So I thank the noble Earl and the Government for bringing in this Scheme.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I thank the noble Viscount very much.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  POLICE PENSIONS REGULATIONS, 1958
  THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD STRATHCLYDE): My Lords, these Regulations take account of changes in the National Insurance Scheme which were introduced by the National Insurance (No. 21 Act, 1957. I should perhaps remind your Lordships that the widows and children of certain policemen are not eligible for benefits under the National Insurance Scheme—it may be that the officer died before the introduction of the Scheme in 1948, or before he had paid sufficient contributions. Instead, Regulations were made to enable them to qualify for equivalent awards under the Police Pensions Scheme. The rates of these awards and the conditions on which they are to be granted are similar to those prescribed for the corresponding benefits under the National Insurance Scheme itself. As your Lordships will recall, the National Insurance (No. 2) Act, 1957, has recently increased the rate of National Insurance benefits. The purpose of these draft Regulations is to make possible similar increases in the awards under the Police Pensions Scheme.
  I would add that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has consulted the Police Council, in accordance with the requirements of the Police Pensions Act, 1948, and they have expressed their complete agreement with these proposals. I

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  am sure that these Regulations, the purpose of which is to assist the widows and children of deceased police officers, will commend themselves to your Lordships' House. I beg to move that the Regulations be approved.
  Moved, That the draft Police Pensions Regulations, 1958, be approved.—(Lord Strathclyde.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  POLICE PENSIONS (SCOTLAND) REGULATIONS, 1958
  LORD STRATHCLYDE: My Lords, these Scottish Regulations have exactly the same effect as the Regulations for England and Wales which your Lordships have just approved. I accordingly beg to move that they be approved.
  Moved, That the draft Police Pensions (Scotland) Regulations. 1958, be approved.—(Lord Strathclyde.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  SOLICITORS (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  3.37 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD KEITH OF AVONHOLM: My Lords, I shall not often have the honour of moving a Bill in this House, but this is an occasion on which I think it is not inappropriate that a Bill should be moved from the Cross-Benches. The Bill may be described as a professional Bill, and it contains provisions that correspond to the statutory provisions of a number of learned societies. It has, I understand, been agreed with all the bodies which are interested in the purposes of the Bill. Before further reference to the provisions of the Bill, I should explain that it was only in 1949 that there was created by Statute the Law Society of Scotland. That Society, accordingly, is a much younger society than its sister society, the Law Society of England. But it runs on parallel lines, and with very similar powers. The ultimate control of solicitors in Scotland is, and has always been, with the Courts, and there is nothing in this Bill to change that. The Lord President of the Court of Session has, I understand, been consulted with reference to this Bill, the provisions of which have
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  his approval. The Law Society of Scotland is, of course, the body immediately and directly concerned with the interests of the general body of solicitors in Scotland, and it is they who will operate the Bill if it passed into law.
  I turn now to the Bill. It is, as your Lordships observe, an amending Bill—a Bill:
  "to amend the law relating to solicitors and notaries public in Scotland, and for purposes connected therewith."
  More particularly it amends in some respects the provisions of the Solicitors (Scotland) Acts, 1933 and 1949. If I might supplement the Explanatory Memorandum attached to the Bill I would explain briefly some of the purposes and reasons for its clauses. Clause 1 deals with the admission of solicitors in Scotland. Much thought has recently been given to this question. It is felt that the existing provisions laid down in earlier Statutes are somewhat rigid, and what is proposed by Clause 1 is that practical training, legal education and the passing of examinations should be made a matter for Regulations prescribed by the Law Society with the concurrence of the Lord President of the Court of Session. This will provide more flexibility to meet modern conditions. It is a matter that has already been discussed with the Scottish universities. The clause corresponds almost exactly with a similar statutory provision in the English Solicitors Act, 1957.
  Clause 2 deals simply with the enactment of a small admission fee on the admission of a candidate to the Society. Clause 3 gives power to the Council to withdraw a solicitor's practising certificate if he fails to comply with various statutory provisions and rules dealing with the keeping of accounts. These rules are designed to keep a check on solicitors in the matter of managing money of their clients coming into their hands. Clearly it is undesirable that a solicitor who does not conform to these requirements in the matter of accounts should be in a position to continue to practise as a solicitor, with probable embarrassment and loss to his clients. Accordingly, the clause proposes that in such circumstances the Council may
  "… withdraw the practising certificate held by the solicitor, and such certificate shall thereupon cease to have effect and he shall be suspended from practice as a solicitor until he

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  satisfies the Council that he is able and willing to comply with the said Rules and the said section thirteen."
  Clause 4 provides that the Keeper of the Registers of Scotland should receive a list of the solicitors holding practising certificates and that the list should be kept up to date from time to time. That is purely of technical significance, intended to keep the Keeper of the Registers advised of those solicitors who are entitled to deal with matters such as the registration of writs in the Land and Sasines registers.
  Clauses 5 to 7 deal with matters of discipline. They provide for action to be taken in cases of professional misconduct, conviction for dishonesty, or a sentence of imprisonment of not less than two years imposed upon a solicitor. These clauses effect no substantial change in the law, but what they do is this. Previously the Council of the Law Society had to investigate the conduct of an offending solicitor and report to the Court. The Court then conducted what in effect was a second inquiry, and it was the Court who struck an offending solicitor off the Roll, suspended him from practising or imposed some other penalty. What is proposed in this Bill is that the Law Society should deal entirely with the matter in the first place, that they should have power to strike an offending solicitor off the Roll or impose some other penalty, and that then the solicitor should have a right of appeal to the Court. Again this is a procedure which corresponds with the practice in the case of the Law Society of England under its own Statutes. Clause 6 provides for the restoration of a solicitor to the Roll, with a corresponding right of appeal under Clause 7. Clause 8 merely introduces certain procedures to be followed in cases that come before the Discipline Committee.
  Clause 9 is a clause for the protection of the clients of a solicitor who is struck off the Roll or suspended from practice. Such a solicitor must satisfy the Council of the Law Society that he has made suitable arrangements for handing over the papers of clients or trust papers or cash due to or held for clients or on trust. If he fails, the Council may invoke certain provisions of the 1949 Act, which give them power to take possession of a solicitor's papers, under an order of the Court if necessary, and put a stop on payment out of the bank account of the solicitor.
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  Clause 10 saves the overriding power of the Court over solicitors.
  Clause 11 is consequential on the discipline provisions of the Bill. It requires a solicitor who is struck off the Roll to be also struck off the Roll of notaries public, and that a solicitor who is struck off the Roll of solicitors at his own request shall also be struck off the Roll of notaries public. The clause also provides for restoration to the Roll of notaries public in appropriate cases. Clause 12 is introduced merely to clear up doubt about the power of notaries public to administer and receive oaths, affidavits and solemn affirmations in certain statutory matters.
  Clause 13, again, is a clause for the protection of solicitors' clients. It requires every solicitor in private practice, with certain exceptions, to deliver to the Registrar not oftener than once a year an accountant's certificate in the prescribed form. That certificate is intended to disclose whether a solicitor's accounts are being kept in compliance with the Scottish Solicitors Accounts Rules made under the Act of 1949. These are designed to show a solicitor's dealings with his clients' money. This clause will be put into effect through rules made by the Council of the Law Society, but your Lordships will notice that in subsection (6) the clause cannot come into operation until such date as the Secretary of State may by statutory instrument appoint, which cannot be earlier than six months after the Council have notified the members of the Law Society of their intention to apply to the Secretary of State for an order. It is also provided, in subsection (4), that failure to comply with the rules or with the Solicitors Accounts Rules may be professional misconduct. That again is a provision which has, I think, been taken largely from one of the statutory provisions of the English Solicitors Act, 1957.
  Clause 14 makes certain consequential amendments of the Acts of 1933 and 1949 and some other minor amendments of these Acts through the Schedules attached to the Bill. Clause 15 gives power to the Council to apply for the appointment of a judicial factor on a solicitor's estate if satisfied on investigation that his accounts are not in order, or that his liabilities exceed his assets; that is clearly a most desirable provision. Clause 16 provides

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  that where a solicitor's estate is to be under administration by sequestration, trust deed or appointment of a judicial factor, and the monies in credit in the clients' bank account kept by the solicitor are less than the sums received by the solicitor on behalf of the clients, the total at credit is to be divided among the various clients in proportion to the sums received by them.
  The object of that clause is to do away with what is known as the rule in Clayton's case. I am not going to weary your Lordships with an explanation of Clayton's case, beyond saying this: that it is a rule that has been established that, where you find a series of debits and a series of credits in one account, the credits that appear earliest in the account are set against the debits that appear earliest in the account. Accordingly, where the credits are less than the debits, one naturally finds a balance of debit at the end. The result might be, so it is thought, that if in the solicitor's clients' account the sums due by the solicitor to the clients are less than the sums that have been credited to the clients in the clients' account at the bank, the client at the top of the list might get payment in full and the client who comes in at the bottom of the list might get nothing at all. The object of this provision is simply to provide that an equitable proportionate division should be made of the total sum in the bank among all the various clients who are affected. Provision is made, however, that this will not apply to accounts which are earmarked in the name of a particular client.
  Clause 17 is the last clause to which I think it is necessary to refer, and it is introduced for a somewhat curious reason. The clause provides for the rectification of the Roll of enrolled solicitors. At present, the only persons removed from the Roll are those who are removed at their own request, or who are struck off the Roll in respect of professional or other misconduct. I am told that there are thousands of names on the Roll of enrolled solicitors of people who have been dead for many years—in fact, some of them since before 1874. There are 17,000 names on the Roll, and most of the people, I understand, are dead. The purpose of this provision is the obvious one that it is desirable that there should be a live Roll of enrolled solicitors; and,
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  accordingly, this clause makes provision for securing that result. I think that that covers everything to which I need refer in connection with the clauses in the Bill, and I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Keith of Avonholm.)
  3.55 p.m.
  LORD MATHERS: My Lords, I hope that it will not be considered inappropriate or in any way wrong for one of your Lordships' House quite unlearned in the law to venture to say something on this Bill. This obviously is a Bill concerned with solicitors, and I confess that I have made every endeavour during my lifetime to keep as far away from solicitors as I possibly could, although occasionally I have found solicitors very helpful indeed. I have had opportunities, in serving as a Member of another place, of being brought into contact with the Law Society of Scotland, and there I have found great helpfulness, and I pay tribute to the way in which that Society does its work.
  This is an amending Bill, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keith of Avon-holm, said—and I thank him for the detail he has given us in his speech. It is, as a matter of fact, a kind of redding up of things affecting solicitors, and it seems quite appropriate that a redding up should be done at the end of the year, when we always try to get our affairs into some semblance of order. Those of us who work at a desk, and who are not particularly careful about how we set things aside or file them, take the opportunity at the end of the year to do something in the way of redding up. It is obviously a matter affecting solicitors in the domestic sphere of solicitors as a great body practising the law in Scotland.
  The only question that I thought of putting to the noble Lord who is to reply for the Government is this. Here is an amending Bill, and amending Bills, with all the reference back to the Statutes that they are amending, are usually difficult to follow. I should like to ask whether this Bill may be looked upon as a precursor to a Consolidation Bill, which it seems to me, arising out of this amending Bill, has become necessary. So far as opinion on what is provided for in the

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  Bill is concerned, I have had little opportunity of making contact with solicitors about it, but I have certainly found no objection taken to anything that is provided for here; indeed, the atmosphere I have found leads me to say that here is a Bill 'which is welcomed by those in the profession, and I am quite sure that they would wish this House to give it a speedy passage and enable it to become law as early as possible. I therefore support the Second Reading of the Bill.
  4.0 p.m.
  LORD SILKIN: My Lords, if my noble friend Lord Mathers felt it necessary to apologise to the House for speaking on this Bill, I find it necessary to apologise twice over: first, because I am not a Scotsman, and, secondly, because I know nothing about Scots law. I rise to say a word or so on this Bill, because I feel a great sense of comfort in having had the explanation of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keith of Avonholm. I felt that he was putting forward for Scotland things which we in England had been doing for the last fifty years or more. Therefore, Scotland has had an opportunity of seeing how we have been doing these things. They have waited a very long time, and now that they feel satisfied we have been successful, they are trying it. It is one of the few respects in which we find that Scotland is lagging substantially behind England.
  LORD MATHERS: Do not rub it in!
  LORD SILKIN: I do not often have an opportunity.
  The other point is one about which I find no mention in the Bill at all, except indirectly. I suppose that solicitors in Scotland do occasionally make default in payment of their clients. I think there is a slight suggestion of that kind in the Bill in the clause which deals with the Clayton case. There is a possibility, but in England we have dealt with it in such a manner as to ensure that the clients do not suffer. We have set up a fund to which all solicitors contribute, and from which, in the rare event of a solicitor making defalcation, the client is compensated. Is there no such fund in Scotland? There is certainly no reference to it in the Bill. Is it Scottish reluctance to make a contribution of a few pounds a year towards such a fund, or what is the reason that it has not been adopted
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  in Scotland, if such is the case? I should be glad of an explanation.
  LORD KEITH OF AVONHOLM: My Lords, may I, on a point of information, say that there is such a matter provided in one of the earlier Scottish Acts. There is a guarantee fund to be applied in the case of clients who suffer from defaulting solicitors. It was not necessary to bring the matter into this Bill.
  LORD SILKIN: I am glad to hear that—it just shows my ignorance! Lastly, I should like to say a word to my noble friend Lord Mathers, who has been successful in keeping away from solicitors all his life. I would say that that is not necessarily a gain in his life; it may be a loss. Most people who go to solicitors do not necessarily go for the purpose of litigation; they go for friendly advice and help; and, generally speaking, get it. If more people went to solicitors they would keep out of the difficulties which they eventually get into, and on the whole I think they would get good advice. I was glad that the noble and learned Lord was able to explain what I thought was the one defect in the Bill, and I am certainly glad to hear that Scotland is coming on.
  LORD MATHERS: My Lords, may I correct a wrong impression in my noble friend's mind? I have kept away from solicitors simply because I have kept out of trouble, so far as possible. Where I did require the help of a solicitor, I have got it in ample measure and have been well satisfied with it.
  LORD STRATHCLYDE: My Lords, the purposes of this Bill have been so fully and ably expounded by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keith of Avonholm, that any further explanation from me not only would be unnecessary but might well weary your Lordships. I feel, however, that your Lordships would wish to congratulate the Law Society of Scotland on securing so distinguished an advocate to place this Bill before your Lordships' House.
  Your Lordships will no doubt wish me to indicate the Government's attitude to the Bill. I am glad to inform your Lordships that they are favourably disposed towards it. It seems to them to make useful amendments to the law, relating to solicitors in Scotland which will enable

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  the profession to raise still higher the standard of its services to the public. Your Lordships will perhaps excuse me from saying more than that at this time. As a chartered accountant, I have learned to walk warily where the law is concerned, and therefore I do not propose to comment on any of the details of the Bill. But perhaps the noble and learned Lord will be able to take the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, to task for suggesting that Scotland ever lagged behind England. I hope your Lordships will give this Bill a Second Reading.
  LORD KEITH OF AVONHOLM: My Lords, I do not think there is anything which calls for a reply on my part.
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  BRITISH NATIONALITY BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
  Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been dispensed with (pursuant to Resolution), Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  House adjourned during pleasure.
  House resumed.

  ROYAL COMMISSION
  5.30 p.m.
  The following Bills received the Royal Assent:

  Expiring Laws Continuance,

  Yarmouth Naval Hospital Transfer,

  Public Works Loans,

  British Transport Commission Order Confirmation,

  Church of Scotland (General Trustees) Order Confirmation,

  Dundee Corporation (Consolidated Powers) Order Confirmation,

  Clyde Lighthouses Order Confirmation.

  House adjourned at seventeen minutes before six o'clock, until Tuesday, 21st January, 1958.