HL Deb 10 May 1956 vol 197 cc339-45

3.7 p.m.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL OF BUCKINGHAMSHIRE in the Chair]

Clause 1:

Exemption of certain small lotteries conducted for charitable, sporting or other purposes

1.

(2) A lottery to which this section applies shall be deemed not to be an unlawful lottery but the following conditions shall be observed in connection with the promotion and conduct of the lottery, that is to say:— (a) the promoter of the lottery shall be a member of the society authorised in writing by the governing body of the society to act as such; (i) every ticket, and every notice or advertisement of the lottery lawfully exhibited, distributed, or published, shall bear the name of the society and the name and address of the promoter; (m) no ticket or chance shall be sold by a person under sixteen years of age

LORD CHORLEY

This is a small drafting Amendment to change the word "bear" which appears in paragraph (i) of subsection (2) to "specify," which would seem a more suitable word. I do not think it requires any further explanation. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 39, leave out ("bear") and insert ("specify").—(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CHORLEY moved in paragraph (i) of subsection (2) to leave out "and" where that word occurs a second time. The noble Lord said: This Amendment, which in a sense again is drafting, is preparatory to the next one which, with the permission of the Committee, I will explain now. On the Second Reading of this Bill the most reverend Primate, in a speech which some of your Lordships will remember, made a number of practical suggestions as to the way in which he felt that this Bill might be improved by being made rather more concrete, and he asked me if I would look at them. Naturally, in the light of such a suggestion I have considered them in consultation with the promoters. I should like to say that we have received a good deal of assistance, both in respect of this matter and other matters which appear later, from the legal advisers at the Home Office, to whom I should like to express our thanks.

One of the points which the most reverend Primate made was that the particulars which had to be submitted to the local authority were, to some extent, left in the air, and he suggested that lotteries might go on indefinitely unless the promoters were required to specify dates. It seemed to us that there was some force in that contention, and we have therefore tabled these Amendments which provides for the inclusion of the date on which the draw, determination or event by or by reference to which the prize winners are ascertained, will take place. I trust that this will, in fact, meet the point which was made by the most reverend Primate on this particular matter and will meet with the approval of the Committee. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 39, leave out first ("and").(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CHORLEY

I beg formally to move this Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 40, at end insert ("and the date on which the draw, determination or event by or by reference to which the prize-winners are ascertained will take place").—(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CHORLEY moved, in subsection (2) (m), after "by" to insert "or to". The noble Lord said: This Amendment also arises out of a point made by the most reverend Primate on the Second Reading. As I think I explained in my speech in which I commended the Bill to your Lordships, in the preparatory stages in another place a number of Amendments were made, one of which required that the tickets issued in connection with lotteries should not be sold by children. The mover of that Amendment failed to observe that it was no doubt equally necessary that they should not be sold to children. This point was made by the most reverend Primate and is obviously a good one. It was, I think, only by inadvertence that it was overlooked, and we are happy to accept his suggestion. On that basis I move this Amendment, which will provide that it will be unlawful for children under sixteen either to sell or to buy tickets in connection with these lotteries. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 4, after ("by") insert ("or to").—(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 [Registration of Societies]:

On Question, Whether Clause 2 shall stand part of the Bill?

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (LORD MANCROFT)

I am sorry to intervene but I think there is a misprint in Clause 2. I have only just noticed it. I must apologise to the noble Lord for not having noticed it before and not having drawn his attention to it. In Clause 2 (6), line 34, there is a reference to "country district". I think the technical term "county district" must be implied there. Perhaps the noble Lord would kindly look at that before the next stage and if, as I suspect, it is only a misprint, he might consider having the matter put right.

LORD CHORLEY

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I think it is obviously a misprint of "country" for "county" and I will take steps to have it rectified at the next stage of the Bill.

LORD SALTOUN

The term could not mean "rural district"?

LORD MANCROFT

No.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clause 3 agreed to.

Clause 4:

Exemption of small gaming parties

4.—(1) This section applies to any entertainment promoted in Great Britain for raising money to be applied for purposes other than purposes of private gain, being an entertainment at which games of chance or of chance and skill combined are played in accordance with the following conditions, that is to say:— (b) not more than one distribution of prizes or awards is made in respect of all games played at the entertainment, and the total value of all prizes and awards distributed in respect of such games does not exceed twenty pounds: Provided that in the case of a small card or gaming party which is the final entertainment in series of two or more such entertainments and in which the players can only participate as a result of their success in a previous entertainment or any previous entertainments there shall be substituted for the words twenty pounds herein the words one hundred pounds; (d) the amount of the said proceeds appropriated in respect of expenses does not exceed the amount reasonably required to meet the actual cost of the facilities provided for the purposes of the games.

(4) Where two or more entertainments are promoted on the same premises by the same persons on any day, the conditions specified in subsection (1) of this section shall apply in relation to those entertainments as if they were a single entertainment, but except as aforesaid those conditions shall apply separately to each entertainment which forms part of a series of entertainments whether or not some or all of the persons taking part in any one of the series are thereby qualified to take part in any other.

LORD CHORLEY moved to leave out the proviso to subsection (1) (b). The noble Lord said: This Amendment, and the two to subsection (4) go together and I should like to explain them to your Lordships. It will be seen that there is a proviso in paragraph (b) of the first subsection of this clause which provides that the prize, which in the ordinary way would be limited to £20, may in certain circumstances be stepped up to £100. This provision was inserted in the Bill by way of an Amendment at the Committee stage in another place. Its object is as follows. I understand that whist drives and games of that kind are often continued on a kind of tournament principle. One qualifies in the first round and later there may be, so to speak, a play off. It was felt that while the maximum amount which could be provided as a prize at the first stage might well be £20, it would be not unreasonable that the prize at what one might call the grand finale should be rather higher. I gather that the object of this Amendment is to provide that at such a grand finale the prize might well be up to £100.

It has been considered by more expert authorities than I am, however, that as the proviso stands in this subsection it might well be construed as meaning that the prize of £100 could be given at the first stage or part of the first stage, or at any rate on the same day as the "heats," so to speak. So that it may be perfectly clear that that is not to be so, these three Amendments have been put down with the entire assent and good will of the Member of another place who was responsible for the Amendment in the first instance. The object is secured by removing the proviso from subsection (b) and inserting it as a separate paragraph on its own later, in subsection (4), where your Lordships will see it provided for in line 27 in the words which appear on the Paper. I hope I have made the matter sufficiently clear. The first Amendment removes the proviso from subsection (1) (b) altogether. At page 6, line 23 of the Bill we insert, what in effect is a preparatory sentence, and at line 27 of the same page we make it perfectly clear that the £100 prize is to be limited to the final stage of a tournament played on a later date, or as the case may be. With that explanation I hope your Lordships will allow me to move these three Amendments.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 34, leave out lines 34 to 40.—(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CHORLEY moved in subsection (1) (d) to leave out "amount reasonably required to meet the actual" and insert "reasonable". The noble Lord said: This is a small Amendment which again is of a drafting character and for which I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Mancroft. If your Lordships will look at Clause 4 (1) (d) it will be seen that it is there provided that the amount of the proceeds to be appropriated in respect of expenses is not to exceed the amount reasonably required to meet the actual cost of the facilities provided for the purposes of the games. If one reads that quite strictly it is difficult to give the word "reasonably" any real meaning. The object is to provide a limit to the amount which may be appropriated on account of expenses from the proceeds of the whist drive or other entertainment. As it stands, however, the word "reasonably" does not seem to have any significance whatever, because the amount "reasonably required to meet the actual cost of the facilities provided" cannot be any different from "the actual cost". I have therefore tabled this Amendment to substitute the words which appear on the Order Paper, to make it clear that the deduction of anything more than a reasonable expenditure will be prohibited. With that explanation I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 2, leave out from ("the") to ("cost") in line 3 and insert ("reasonable").—(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CHORLEY

I beg to move this Amendment, to which I have already referred.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 23, leave out from beginning to ("shall") and insert ("(5) Except as provided by the last foregoing subsection, the conditions specified in subsection (1) of this section").—(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CHORLEY

I beg to move the last Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 27, at end insert ("and where each of the persons taking part in the games played at the final entertainment of such a series is qualified to do so by reason of having taken part in the games played at another entertainment of that series held on a previous day (being an entertainment to which this section applies) paragraph (b) of the said subsection (1) shall apply in relation to that final entertainment as if for the words 'twenty pounds' there were substituted the words 'one hundred pounds'.")—(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

House resumed.