§ 3.18 p.m.
§ Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OE SALIS-BURY)My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to signify to the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Copyright Bill, has consented to place her interest so far as it is concerned on behalf of the Crown at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, your Lordships will have noticed that there are a number of Amendments down for Third Reading. I think it is in accordance with the usual practice that we should give the Bill a Third Reading formally and then discuss the Amendments. Then, on the Motion that the Bill do now pass, we offer such observations as we have on the general purposes of the Bill. I, accordingly, beg formally to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
§ Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Bill read 3a.
§ Clause 1 [Nature of copyright under this Act]:
§ LORD MANCROFT moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "any" and to insert "the United Kingdom or in any other." The noble Lord said: My Lords, as I have just observed, there are a number of Amendments—some thirty-odd in fact—on this Bill at this stage. I know 742 it is not customary in your Lordships' House to favour Amendments on Third Reading, therefore I ought, perhaps, to offer your Lordships an apology for the fact that there are such a large number of Amendments to be taken on the Third Reading of this Bill. As your Lordships will remember, it is an unusually complicated Bill. Most of these Amendments are drafting or consequential. None of them, I think, is really contentious, and only three or four are of importance in that they clear up some difficulty still outstanding or honour obligations entered into by the Government which we have not yet been able to fulfil. We turn to Amendment No. 1, and I am happy to be able to inform your Lordships that we start with an Amendment which is completely non-contentious. This is purely a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 11, leave out ("any") and insert ("the United Kingdom or in any other").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, this Amendment is merely by way of clarification. I do not think it requires any further explanation from me. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 19, leave out from ("who") to end of line 3 on page 2 and insert ("not being the owner of the copyright, and without the licence of the owner thereof, does, or authorises another person to do, any of the said acts in relation to the work in the United Kingdom or in any other country to which the relevant provision of this Act extends.")—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 4 [Ownership of copyright in literary, dramatic, musical and artistic works]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, this Amendment, which goes with No. 4, is intended to meet a point made on Report Stage by my noble friend Lord Conesford and I would say, by way of compliment to him, that only he could have taken it. It was an extremely subtle but valid point. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 23, leave out from ("where") to ("a") in line 24.—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 26, after ("engraving") insert ("and pays or agrees to pay for it in money or money's worth").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 5 [Infringements by importation, sale and other dealings]:
§
LORD MANCROFT moved to add to the clause:
(6) In this section 'place of public entertainment' includes any premises which are occupied mainly for other purposes, but are from time to time made available for hire to such persons as may desire to hire them for purposes of public entertainment.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is of greater substance and is concerned with a point of what we call secondary infringement. It deals with the case where the owner of a theatre lets his theatre knowingly for the performance of a work which he is aware will create an infringement of copyright and derives profit from it. The object of the Amendment is to clarify what is meant by a "place of public entertainment." This question gave us a little trouble in Committee and again on Report stage. The difficulty was to find a formula which would bring within the mischief of the subsection a place available generally for public entertainment although not exclusively used for such purposes—for instance, a room in a town hall—but to keep free private premises. When dealing with this matter the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, mentioned his barn, which on very rare occasions might be used to house an entertainment given on behalf of some special object. The wording now proposed has been discussed with the Joint Copyright Council. I am glad to tell your Lordships that they accept it and I hope your Lordships will, too. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 42, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, this Amendment is entirely satisfactory, but I think the noble Lord might have been a little more complimentary to the Opposition, because we secured this only under great pressure. We had to press the Government on Committee stage, we had to press them on Report stage, and I was by no means certain that they 744 would do anything. The noble Lord might have given us a little credit—
§ LORD MANCROFTCertainly.
§ LORD SILKIN—and taken some for himself for being so conciliatory. At any rate, this Amendment entirely meets the point and that particular issue is now closed.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 6 [General exceptions from protection of literary, dramatic and musical works]:
§ (7) Where by virtue of an assignment or licence a person is authorised to broadcast a literary, dramatic or musical work, but (apart from this subsection) would not be entitled to make reproductions of it in the form of a record or of a cinematograph film, the copyright in the work is not infringed by his making such a reproduction of the work solely for the purpose of broadcasting the work:
§
Provided that this subsection shall not apply if—
(b) the reproduction is not destroyed before the end of the period of twenty-eight days beginning with the day on which it is made or with the day on which the work is first broadcast in pursuance of the assignment or licence, whichever is the later, or such extended period (if any) as may be agreed between the person who made the reproduction and the person who (in relation to the making of reproductions of the description in question) is the owner of the copyright.
§
LORD MANCROFT moved, in proviso (b) of subsection (7), to leave out all words from and including "made," where that word first occurs, down to and including "later," and to insert instead:
first used for broadcasting the work in pursuance of the assignment or licence".
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot remember how much pressure, if any, was brought to bear on the Government by noble Lords opposite on this Amendment, but if there was pressure, I willingly concede it at once.
§ LORD SILKINI will let the noble Lord know.
§ LORD MANCROFTI am certain that the noble Lord will let me know. This Amendment is concerned with the rather tricky question of the ephemeral recording which, the House may remember, has to be destroyed after twenty-eight days. The purpose of this Amendment is to 745 make clearer the effect of a Government Amendment accepted by your Lordships on Report stage. As I then explained, it is the practice of the broadcasting authorities, when an artiste in a series like Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh and Take It Front Here, is going abroad, to record programmes some time before their broadcast. Since twenty-eight days from making a recording would not always be long enough, it was our invention in these cases to allow the broadcasting authority to keep its ephemeral recording until twenty-eight days after the date on which the recording was first broadcast. But the Amendment then agreed to was faulty in two ways. First, it referred to the
day on which the work is first broadcast in pursuance of the licence or assignment.If, as is usually the case, the broadcasting authority is working under a blanket licence arrangement with the owner of the performing right, the first broadcast of any given work may take place a long time before the particular performance by the particular artiste which the broadcasting authority finds it necessary to record. Secondly, it referred to the date of making the record. Since this cannot be later than the first broadcast of the recording, the reference to two dates is unnecessary. I hope this Amendment now clears up a rather difficult point. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 14, leave out from ("is") to ("or") in line 16 and insert ("first used for broadcasting the work in pursuance of the assignment or licence,").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I said that I would refresh the noble Lord's memory where necessary. This is another Amendment which we pressed very hard, and for a long time without success. I am glad that it has now been accepted. The noble Lord said that the Amendment which the Government agreed to was faulty. For the sake of accuracy, would it not be correct to say that the Amendment which they themselves put down was faulty.
§ LORD MANCROFTI said that.
LORD SILKENAt any rate, if we are agreed, I do not want to make heavy weather of it. I want to exonerate my own friends. We did not put down an Amendment which was accepted by the 746 Government and then found to be faulty; it was the Government's own Amendment which was found to be faulty and they are now putting it right, and putting it right in the way we urged them to do right through the various stages of the Bill.
§ LORD MANCROFTThe noble Lord is quite right. I remember well that there were certain flaws obvious in the Amendment, and I must take responsibility for them.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 7:
§ Special exceptions as respects libraries and archives
§
(5) The copyright in a published literary, dramatic or musical work is not infringed by the making or supplying of a copy of the work, or of part of it, by or on behalf of the librarian of a library of a class prescribed ay regulations made under this subsection by the Board of Trade, if—
(b) the librarian by or on whose behalf the copy is supplied does not know be identity of the owner of the copyright in be work and could not by reasonable inquiry have ascertained it; and
(c) any other conditions prescribed by the regulations are complied with.
§
LORD MANCROFT moved to add to subsection (5):
Provided that the condition specified in paragraph (b) of this subsection shall not apply in the case of an article contained in a periodical publication.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, we now move on to the question of libraries, which has caused some uneasiness, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Chorley. I gave hint notice that I would try to deal with this point to-day and I hope that had he been here, he would be happy with this Amendment. It is concerned with the arrangements between libraries for exchanging works photographed by the libraries and passed round on an inter-library basis. Subsection (5) of this clause provides librarians of prescribed libraries with exemption from infringement in the copying of works for other prescribed libraries. But by virtue of paragraph (b), the exemption operates only if the librarian does not know, and cannot readily ascertain, the owner of the copyright in the work copied. So far as copying by libraries for students is concerned, this requirement is imposed only
747
if the work copied is something other than an article in a periodical. This Amendment, therefore, put the "interlibrary" copying on all fours with copying for students in this respect.
§ It will be noted that in prescribing the libraries which may take part without infringement in this inter-library copying, the Board of Trade are not bound by the requirements of subsection (2)—for example, the requirement that the libraries prescribed may not be established or conducted for profit—a point which was worrying the noble Lord a good deal. If, therefore, it were considered desirable, it would be possible to permit commercial libraries to join in this general scheme by which libraries are, under prescribed conditions, able to help each other. It is more than likely that articles in out-of-print scientific periodicals will figure largely in these exchange arrangements. The Amendment will make easier copying for this limited purpose. I do not pretend that the Amendment goes the whole way the noble Lord. Lord Chorley, would like, but it will help him to a certain degree. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 42, at the end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 8 [Special exception in respect of records of musical works]:
§ Lord Mancroft moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "two years" and insert "one year." The noble Lord said: My Lords, the effect of this Amendment is to enable the Board of Trade to hold a public inquiry into the rate of statutory royalty for compulsory recordings within one year of the coming into force of the section, instead of after two years, as the clause now provides. During the Committee stage the noble Lord. Lord Lucas of Chilworth, asked whether the period of two years could be cut and I agreed to look into the point. I am sure that the noble Lord would welcome this Amendment, which meets the point he made. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved.
§ Page 12, line 1, leave out ("two years") and insert ("one year").—(Lord Mancroft.)
748§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I will send a signal to my noble friend, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, who is on the high seas. I am sure he will be delighted to hear that this Amendment has been accepted.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 10 [Special exception in respect of industrial designs]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, Amendments Nos. 9, 10 and 11 go together. I am afraid they are technical and complicated, but I am happy to say they are not controversial. They deal with technical points of the borderline between copyright and registered designs. I do not think it is a common case; in fact, it is probably somewhat rare. However, the Amendments have been put down to meet a point raised by the Chartered Institute of Patent Agents. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 16, leave out ("this subsection") and insert ("any proceedings under this Act").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 18, leave out ("in question") and insert ("when the articles were sold, let for hire, or offered for sale or hire").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 16, line 21, leave out ("and") and insert ("or
(b) before the time referred to in the preceding paragraph an application for the registration of the design had been made, and after that time, but before the date of the act alleged in the proceedings to have constituted an infringement of the copyright in the artistic work, that application had been refused, and no appeal against that refusal had been allowed before the date of that act or was pending on that date,
and, in either case").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 13 [Copyright in cinematograph films]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, this Amendment is a little more than drafting, and it is designed to meet a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, on the Report stage. We now seek to make clear the intention that when the copyright in the film has expired, no one who causes the film to be seen, or to be seen and heard, in public 749 infringes any of the rights given under Part I: that is to say, the rights of the author or composer. The film includes the sound-track, by subsection (8), and the sound-track itself is defined in subsection (9). The clause, as amended, does not allow the public performance of the sound-track alone without the consent of the author of the words and music embodied in it. That was the point that was worrying the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, and I think this clears it up. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 6, leave out from ("film") to ("any") in line 8 and insert ("a person who, after that copyright has expired, causes the film to be seen, or to be seen and heard, in public does not thereby infringe").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 14 [Copyright in television broadcasts and sound broadcasts]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, this is a drafting. Amendment, designed to meet a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, who had some doubt as to the actual meaning of the words. I hope that we have now resolved his doubts by this Amendment. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§ Page 22, line 38, leave out from beginning to ("and") in line 44 and insert ("either—
- (a) have been admitted for payment to the place where the broadcast is to be seen or heard, or have been admitted for payment to a place of which that place forms part, or
- (b) have been admitted to the place where the broadcast is to he seen or heard in circumstances where goods or services are supplied there at prices which exceed the prices usually charged at that place"). —(Lord Mancroft.)
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, this Amendment does meet the difficulty that I had. As I said on the Report stage, I think Clause 14 was probably the most controversial clause in the Bill, and I should like to pay my tribute to the Government for the way in which they have handled this matter and produced a clause which is entirely satisfactory to all the critics and, I hope, also, to those who will be responsible for showing sports events, and so on. They, too, have behaved very well in this matter, and I think that credit is due all round.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
750§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, the subject matter of this Amendment was put into my mind by my noble friend Lord Saltoun, and I am grateful to him for it. The Amendment clarifies our intention to exempt clubs whore watching television is an extra amenity and not the main purpose for which the subscription is paid. This fulfils the undertaking I gave to your Lordships on the Report stage to look at the drafting in order to clear up the point the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, had in mind. I think this meets his point. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 22, line 46, at end insert—
("Provided that for the purposes of paragraph (a) of this subsection no account shall be taken—
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, those who instructed me, and I myself, are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, for the Amendment he has just moved, which removes all our trouble. We are grateful to the noble Lord for the great care he has taken in this Bill and the immense trouble he has gone to to meet all the points. I should like to associate myself with everything that has been said so gracefully by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 17 [Supplementary provisions for purposes of Part II]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, the next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 9, leave out ("personal") and insert ("private and domestic").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 21 [Penalties and summary proceedings in respect of dealings which infringe copyright]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to allow a defendant to a criminal prosecution to take advantage of the same defences as are open to a defendant to a civil action 751 for infringement: for example, that what he did, although admittedly without the consent of the copyright owner, was no more than fair dealing within Clause 6.
§ I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 28, leave out from ("performance") to first ("of") in line 29 and insert ("constitutes an infringement").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 22 [Provision for restricting importation of printed copies]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, the next Amendment is drafting, and also consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 31, line 41, leave out ("personal") and insert ("private and domestic").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MANCROFT moved, after Clause 28 to insert the following new clause:
§ Reference of questions of law to the court.
§ " .—(1) Any question of law arising in the course of proceedings before the tribunal may, at the request of any party to the proceedings, he referred by the tribunal to the court for decision, whether before or after the tribunal has given its decision in the proceedings:
§ Provided that a question shall not be referred to the court by virtue of this subsection in pursuance of a request made after the date on which the tribunal gave its decision, unless the request is made before the end of such period as may be prescribed by rules made under the Third Schedule to this Act.
§ (2) If the tribunal, after giving its decision in any proceedings, refuses any such request to refer a question to the court, the party by whom the request was made may, within such period as may be prescribed by rules of court, apply to the court for an order directing the tribunal to refer the question to the court.
§ (3) On any reference to the court under this section with respect to any proceedings before the tribunal, and on any application under the last preceding subsection with respect to any such proceedings, every party to the proceedings before the tribunal shall be entitled to appear and to be heard.
§ (4) Where, after the tribunal has given its decision in any proceedings, the tribunal refers to the court under this section a question of law which arose in the course of the proceedings, and the court decides that the question was erroneously determined by the tribunal,—
- (a) the tribunal, if it considers it requisite to do so for the purpose of giving effect to the decision of the court, shall give to
752 the parties to the proceedings a further opportunity of presenting their cases respectively; - (b) in any event, the tribunal shall reconsider the matter in dispute in conformity with the decision of the court;
- (c) if on such reconsideration it appears to The tribunal to be appropriate to do so, the tribunal shall make such order revoking or modifying any order previously made by it in the proceedings, or, in the case of proceedings under section twenty-seven of this Act where the tribunal refused to make an order, shall make such order under that section, as on such reconsideration the tribunal determines to be appropriate.
§ (5) Any reference of a question by the tribunal to the court under this section shall be by way of stating a case for the opinion of the court; and the decision of the court on any such reference shall be final.
§ (6) In this section 'the court'—
- (a) in relation to any proceedings of the tribunal in England or Wales, or in Northern Ireland, means the High Court; and
- (b) in relation to any proceedings of the tribunal in Scotland, means the Court of Session."
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is of some considerable importance, and it goes with Amendment No. 28. It provides for an appeal to the court on questions of law arising before the tribunal. This matter was raised by the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, during the Committee stage, and again by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, on the Report stage. During the debate on the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack accepted the principle that there should be an appeal on questions of law, and undertook to propose the necessary Amendment as soon as it was possible to find the most appropriate form of words. There will, I think, be general agreement on the object of this Amendment, in spite of the fact that not many questions of law are likely to arise before this tribunal, which is primarily a fact-finding and rate-fixing body.
§ The scheme of our new clause is broadly as follows. The tribunal may refer questions of law to the court at the request of a party to the proceedings made within a prescribed time limit. The tribunal may refuse to refer to the court if, for example, the tribunal considers the application a frivolous one. If it does, the party making the request may apply to the court for an order directing the tribunal to state a case. Subsection (4) requires the tribunal to take the necessary action if the court has decided that 753 the tribunal went wrong on a point of law. For example, it may be necessary for the tribunal to have a further hearing, or it may be appropriate for the tribunal to confirm, revoke or modify its order.
§ The main difficulty involved is one of time. There is a danger that, at the very time when everyone wants to know what his position is, the tribunal's order may still be sub judice. The obvious example would arise in connection with the broadcasting of a sporting event. We do not think it is possible to provide a solution which will be appropriate in every case. We have therefore thought it better to provide that rules may be made empowering or requiring the tribunal to suspend its orders when a question of law is referred to the court, and to enable the court to suspend the tribunal's order if an appeal is made against the tribunal's refusal to refer a question of law to the court. It seemed to us better to adopt this more flexible approach, since it is impossible to foresee rill the circumstances which are likely to arise, and it is therefore better to leave it to the good sense of the parties and the tribunal, und the wisdom of the court, to find solutions to these difficulties as they arise. Another difficulty arises from the need to inform the people affected that orders of the tribunal have been suspended, and power is therefore taken to make rules for the publication of the necessary notices. I believe this meets the very real difficulty we all felt on this matter and I think your Lordships may wish to approve what is certainly an important Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 28 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I should like to congratulate and thank the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the. Woolsack for the effort he has made, to meet the point that was put forward, not only from this side of the House but, I think it fair to say, from a great many quarters who felt that there should be a right of access to the courts in case of notices. I believe this meets the very real meets the case. It will be scrutinised closely by the eminent lawyers in another place, and if it goes through unscathed and unamended I think the Government are to be congratulated. The one point I have to make on it is that I think it is 754 clear that, pending a decision of the High Court, the decision of the tribunal stands. That decision operates until it is reversed. I think that overcomes some of the difficulties we apprehended in giving a right of appeal to the courts. I welcome this Amendment, and I am sure it is right in principle.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 29 [Extension of Act to Isle of Man, Channel Islands, colonies and dependencies]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, these next three Amendments go together and they are all drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 40, line 8, leave out from ("to") to end of line and insert—
("(a) the Isle of Man;
(b) any of the Channel Islands;
(c) any colony;
(d) any country outside Her Majesty's dominions in which for the time being Her Majesty has jurisdiction;
(e) any country consisting partly of one or more colonies and partly of one or more such countries as are mentioned in the last preceding paragraph.")—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MANCROFTI beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 40, line 14, leave out ("subsections") and insert ("subsection").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MANCROFTI beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 40, line 17, leave out ("those subsections") and insert ("that subsection").— (Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 30 [Application of Act to countries to which it does not extend]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, these next two Amendments go together. They are purely drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 6, after ("to") insert ("literary, dramatic, musical or artistic").— (Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
755§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 8, after ("to") insert ("literary, dramatic, musical or artistic").(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 31 [Provisions as to international organisations]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, Amendment 24 is also drafting. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 42, line 41, at end insert—
("(4) The provisions of Part I of this Act, with the exception of provisions thereof relating to the subsistence, duration or ownership of copyright, shall apply in relation to copyright subsisting by virtue of this section as they apply in relation to copyright subsisting by virtue of the said Part I.")—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 37 [Provisions as to Crown and Government departments]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, this Amendment is both drafting and consequential. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 47, line 33 at end insert—
("(7) In relation to copyright subsisting by virtue of this section—
shall apply as those provisions apply in relation to copyright subsisting by virtue of Part I or as the case may be Part II of this Act.")—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 46 [Supplementary provisions as to interpretation]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, Amendment 26 is also drafting. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 57, line 19, at end insert ("and any reference to a reproduction, adaptation or copy of a work shall be taken to include a reference to a reproduction, adaptation or copy of a substantial part of the work:")—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
756§ LORD MANCROFTThis is also a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 58, line 34, leave out ("sections twenty-one and") and insert ("section")—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Third Schedule [Provisions as to Performing Right Tribunal]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential on Amendment No. 18 which we have just been discussing. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 62, line 38, at end insert—
("(3) Any such rules may include provision—
§ (4) Provision shall be made by rules of court for limiting the time for instituting proceedings under subsection (2) of section (Reference of questions of law to the court) of this Act, and for authorising or requiring the court, where it makes an order directing the tribunal to refer a question of law to the court, to provide in the order for suspending the operation of any order made by the tribunal in the proceedings in which the question of law arose.
§ (5) In this paragraph 'the court' has the same meaning as in section—(Reference of questions of law to the court) of this Act.")— (Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
757§ Fifth Schedule [Transitional Provisions]:
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, this is not purely a drafting Amendment but it is quite uncontroversial. It tidies up some procedural pecularities and is rather of a technical nature. I do not think I need weary your Lordships with an explanation. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 8, after ("1911") insert ("or of the provisions of the Copyright Order Confirmation (Mechanical Instruments: Royalties) Act, 1928").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, Amendments Nos. 30 and 31 are both consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 11, leave out ("or photograph") and insert ("photograph or cinematograph film ").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 14, leave out ("or photograph") and insert ("photograph or film"). —(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 32, leave out ("or transferring") and insert ("transferring or terminating").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I beg to move this Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 70, line 11, leave out ("to") and insert ("(2) and").—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, this also is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§ Page 71, line 30, leave out from beginning to first ("any") in line 42, and insert: ("the provisions of this paragraph shall have effect where—
- (a) the author of a work to which this Part of this Schedule applies had, before the commencement of the Act of 1911,
758 made such an assignment or grant as is mentioned in paragraph (a) of the proviso to subsection (1) of section twenty-four of that Act (which relates to transactions whereby the author had assigned, or granted an interest in, the copyright or performing right in a work for the full term of that right under the law in force before the Act of 1911), and - (b) copyright subsists in the work by virtue of any provision of this Act.
§ (2) If, before the commencement of that provision of this Act, any event occurred, or notice was given, which in accordance with paragraph (a) of the said proviso had any operation affecting the ownership of the right conferred by the Act of 1911 in relation to the work, or creating transferring or terminating an interest, right or licence in respect of that right, that event or notice shall have the corresponding operation in relation to the copyright in the work under this Act.
§ (3) Any right which, at a time after the commencement of that provision of this Act. would, by virtue of paragraph (a) of the said proviso, have been, exercisable in relation to the work, or to the right conferred by the Act of 1911, if this Act had not been passed, shall be exercisable in relation to the work or to the copyright therein under this Act, as the case may be.
§ (4) If, in accordance with paragraph (a) of the said proviso, the right conferred by the Act of 1911 would have reverted to the author or his personal representatives on the date referred to in that paragraph, and the said date falls after the commencement of the provision of this Act whereby copyright subsists in the work, then on that date—
- (a) the copyright in the work under this Act shall revert to the author or his personal representatives, as the case may he, and
- (b)".)—(Lord Mancroft.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Amendments (privilege) made.
§ 3.47 p.m.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I now rise to move, after that whirlwind and breakneck passage through the Amendments on Third Reading, that the Bill do now pass. Perhaps I may be allowed one or two brief words by way of valediction, because the time has come to say goodbye to this Bill. I myself do it with slight sadness. Having lived with it for nearly a year I have become quite fond of it. I do not think anybody could accuse us of having skimped our duty. We have taken nine days and considered nearly 350 Amendments, but it is an important Bill, a highly technical Bill, and in some respects controversial. The 1911 Act which it supersedes had a long and useful life, and we hope that this Bill will have an equally long and useful life. I 759 think we were right to discuss it in such detail—we make no complaints from this side about that. We invited comments from all sides of the House, and we received them. I hope your Lordships will agree with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in the kindly words he has just expressed, that we have given all possible and reasonable attention to the many reasoned Amendments put down.
I should like to express my gratitude to all noble Lords for the care and attention they have devoted to the Bill, and particularly the noble Lords opposite, because they have had a difficult time. It is never easy for them on a technical Bill like this, without the expert advice available to the Government. They had an additional disadvantage because the noble Lords, Lord Jowitt and Lord Lucas of Chilworth, who were in charge of the early stages, took themselves off to warmer climes and left the Bill in the extremely able hands of Lord Silkin and his friends. The Opposition have thus had the additional disadvantage of changing horses in midstream, or, perhaps one should say, changing cooks in mid-broth.
This is not in any way a Party matter. The Bill as originally drawn up was a good one: I claimed it when I introduced it, and I claim it now. I also claim that it is now a better Bill. I should also like to make this point, lest it be suggested that the large number of Amendments that we have incorporated as a result of requests from all sides of the House should be thought to suggest any lack of forethought or preparation on the part of the Government. On the contrary, what has happened is that professional bodies who thought they had a slight interest in the Bill and who were consulted discovered that they had a much greater interest than they thought; and bodies who thought that they were not interested at all suddenly found that they were—and I do not doubt that before the Bill is completed elsewhere even more interests may suddenly reveal themselves.
We have made considerable and substantial changes in the Bill as introduced. The original provisions of Clause 4 as to the ownership of copyrights did not commend themselves to the House. That clause has been substantially redrafted to give more protection to the author than we originally contemplated. We have 760 had some disagreement on gramophone records. Changes have been made in regard to the criteria on which records can enjoy copyright protection and the scope of the performing right in records. The noble Lord, Lord Archibald, who I am sorry to hear is ill again, persuaded us by his oratory to extend the film copyright to fifty years. The long and at one time rather controversial debate that we had on the performing right in television programmes succeeded in persuading sports promoters to reconsider their attitude to the now famous Scarborough landlady, and the right is now restricted to cases in which payment is made for admission. We have given certain important exemptions to those using copyright material for educational purposes. Several important Amendments to the provisions relating to the Performing Right Tribunal have been made, including a new clause, which your Lordships have just passed, providing an appeal to the High Court on a point of law.
We have not always been in full agreement but I think that little still divides us on any point of importance. There are certain matters, admittedly, which will have to be considered in another place because we have not yet had rime to complete our investigations of new points that have come to light. One is the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Faring-don, about consent in writing of the performers—that is Clause 42. Another point is one raised by the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, about licences and assignments—that is Clause 34. We have not been able to come to a final conclusion in this House on those particular points. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, is not in his place because I should have liked to try to clear up some of the doubts which still exist in his mind concerning the libraries clause. He feels -that we have been obstinate, unkind and unfair to librarians. I should have liked to try and convince the noble Lord that this is not so. I tried on Committee stage; I tried on Report stage and, although one cannot help but admire the tenacity with which Lord Chorley has continued to clutch the wrong end of the stick, I should have liked to set his mind at rest on this point.
We are not being obstinate. The noble Lord will bear in mind three important points. First, this clause gives 761 the librarians the powers that their association told the Copyright Committee they needed. Secondly, any widening of these provisions is inevitably at the expense of the copyright owner—and that is a good example of the "erosion" which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, frequently referred to during the earlier stages of the Bill. Thirdly, the clause in no way hampers librarians in the exercise of any rights they may now have as a result of arrangements with publishers, such as the Royal Society Fair Copying Declaration, or of the consent of the copyright owner having been otherwise obtained, either by the librarian or by the person for whom the copy is required. The clause simply gives librarians rights which they do not have at all under existing law. The safeguards it provides for the copyright owner operate only when these new rights are being exercised. It is of some melancholy interest that, while we were debating this clause, the proctors at Oxford offered some sad strictures upon the amount of pilfering which goes on in the Bodleian Library. I hope that this clause will help to reduce that unfortunate state of affairs.
I come now to the conclusion of far too much talk from me on this Bill. I should like to thank your Lordships for the careful, patient and helpful consideration that you have given to it. Perhaps I might be allowed to react at this point an unsolicited testimonial by a very distinguished foreign copyright expert, who said a few days ago, in a letter which he wrote from America to those who are advising the Lord Chancellor and myself on this matter:
I followed through the Hansards with great interest discussions in the I-louse of Lords on your Copyright Bill. Fascinating discussions! Your Lords seem to know as much about the technicalities as specialist copyright lawyers. I have never read such high level Parliamentary discussions about copyright.That foreign copyright expert must clearly have overlooked that in the Committee stage I accidentally attributed Mr. George Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue to Mr. Cole Porter. I hope that those of your Lordships who are better entitled to a share of that testimonial will now be pleased to send this Bill on its way.
§ Moved, That the Bill do now pass.— (Lord Mancroft.)
§ 3.57 p.m.
LORD FARINGDONMy Lords, I should like to add my tribute to Her 762 Majesty's Government. This is one of the happy occasions when both sides of the House have co-operated as, in my view, they might much more often. Governments are a little inclined—and I apply this to Governments of all colours, shapes and descriptions—to wed themselves irrevocably to a Bill in the condition in which they bring it to your Lordships' House. I am grateful to the 'noble Lord for what he said about my Amendment to what is now Clause 42, dealing with consent in writing. I am rather disappointed that he has not yet been able to find the necessary form of words, but I take encouragement from what he has said to-day and what he has said on previous occasions. I am full of hope that, before this Bill leaves another place, some suitable re-drafting of this particular part of this clause will have been discovered.
I would ask the noble Lord whether he has given any further thought to another Amendment which I had to the same clause and which was intended to bring variety artistes within the operation of this Copyright Bill. As it happens, since the last stage of this Bill in your Lordships' House I have had occasion to discuss the matter with persons who are deeply interested in this particular aspect, and they tell me that modern techniques are likely to have a deleterious effect upon these variety artistes. Whilst not wishing to disturb the harmonious atmosphere of your Lordships' House to-day, I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, whether he has given any additional thought to this particular and, I understand, rather difficult problem, which is surely only one of find-ling a formula, and whether we can hope that it may be dealt with in another place.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, it would be perhaps right that I should say a few final words about this Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, says that he is parting with it with a certain amount of sadness. I part with it with mixed feelings of relief and nostalgia, and I am not sure which predominates—probably, since we are approaching Easter, it is relief. However, we shall see this Bill again—of that I am quite sure. In view of what we have done, it will come back in not so modified a form as it might have done, but certainly it will come back considerably modified, so we shall have an opportunity of having a final look at it.
763 As the noble Lord has said, this Bill has not been a Party measure. Therefore, we have seen the House of Lords at its best as a revising Chamber. We have had a great deal of scope because this Bill originated in this House; it did not come to us with the scrutiny that another place might have given to it. Although the numbers who have taken part in the discussions have been few, I feel that the gentleman in America who corresponded with the noble Lord was perfectly right, and that the discussions have been on a very high level. I hope the noble Lord will tell the gentleman in America that we very much appreciate the compliment that he has paid this House. We do not often get unsolicited testimonials and, when we do, we treasure them very much. Perhaps the noble Lord would put this letter in the Library so that we may look at it from time to time.
There are one or two controversial matters that have not been disposed of to the entire satisfaction of some of us, but the noble Lord need feel no misgivings in having conceded so many Amendments. The last thing I should wish to do would be to taunt Her Majesty's Government for having accepted a large number of Amendments. I hope that in other measures they will follow the good example which has been set for them on this occasion. In this connection, I am glad to see present the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, because the last time I had occasion to pay a compliment to any member of Her Majesty's Government on the way they had dealt with a Bill 1 paid it to the noble Earl, because I appreciated the way in which he had dealt with a difficult measure—namely, the Television Bill, a measure which we still dislike as much as ever.
There are one or two clauses to which I should like to refer. We are still not satisfied with the one aspect of Clause 4 which dealt with the question of syndication of articles—the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, will know what I am referring to. I hope that in another place it will be further considered. I think that we are right on that point, but I should not like to be dogmatic, and I see that there is a possibility of there being two sides to the question. However, I think it needs to be further explored in another 764 place. Then there is the question of libraries. I think the Government have gone a long way to meet my noble friend Lord Chorley. I would not say that he is ungracious or that he has misconceived the position. He naturally wants to do the best he can for a worthy organisation, and if he over-emphasises the rights of students at the expense of others, well, that is probably an error on the right side. I should welcome a further examination of that matter.
There is one point which has not been stressed in this House but which will probably have to be examined in another place—namely, the question of relay services. On this point, my noble friend Lord Archibald was interested in a series of Amendments. I took over a great many of his Amendments, but I did not feel equal to taking over the question of the relay services. I must say that at the time I was rather attracted by the argument put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, but I overlooked the fact that a service can be relayed from abroad and as well as from a station in this country. I think that the Bill may well cover cases where there is a relay, say from the B.B.C. or from the Independent Television Authority; but there is no provision here for relays from abroad, and if the relay is a first performance then it ought to be covered by copyright. I mention that merely because it is one of the unresolved points which I think will probably have to be discussed in another place.
However, I have nothing more to say on this Bill, and I am glad that this is so. I once more wish to thank the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, and the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, for the conciliatory and friendly way in which they have dealt with suggestions, not only from our side but from all parts of the House, on this difficult question. I say to the noble Lord once more: do not be discouraged in good deeds; we shall certainly not upbraid you or taunt you for having accepted so many Amendments.
§ 4.5 p.m.
LORD REAMy Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, and the noble Lord. Lord Silkin, will forgive an intrusion, I should like, from the side-lines, to say how much we have admired the tussle that has 765 gone on between Her Majesty's Government and Her Majesty's Official Opposition. Owing to circumstances, we have not been able to take quite the same part in this Bill as many of your Lordships, but it has been a magnum opus—perhaps a sonata passionata. We should like to add our tribute to noble Lords on both sides of the House whom we have seen fighting so admirably, in taking and winning and in giving back points.
§ 4.6 p.m.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I am sure that if my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor were here, he would have liked to thank the House for the kindly references that have been made to his efforts in leading me on this Bill. I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Faring-don, that we are still considering the question of variety artistes; and I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, that we are still wrestling with the difficult problem of the relay services. Undoubtedly, more will be heard of these in another place. In the meantime, the unamended rabbits wait, and I hope your Lordships will agree that this Bill be now passed.
§ On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.