§ 2.50 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can make a statement explaining the reported increase in the prison staff in Mageta Island in Lake Victoria; for what offences the prisoners are confined, and for what terms.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD LLOYD)My Lords, Mageta Island is a special detention camp in which 1,995 Mau Mau adherents are detained for the purpose of maintaining public order. Persons are not subject to detention orders for predetermined periods: they earn their release through rehabilitation and their period in detention depends on the speed at which they respond to the rehabilitation process. Those now on Mageta Island have hitherto shown little response to rehabilitation. Mageta Island is a potentially valuable agricultural area covered with thick bush, which is being cleared by the detainees who are paid for the work they do.
95 Since the 22nd June, however, the detainees have refused to do any work other than camp maintenance. Experience has shown that it is difficult to rehabilitate any detainee not given work to do, and an investigation was therefore carried out in order to identify the ringleaders. This was being resisted, and to prevent passive resistance turning to violence and to deal with it should this happen, security forces on the island were increased and 209 ringleaders identified and isolated without incident on the 20th July, in the presence of the Deputy Commissioner of Prisons.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, am I right in supposing that these 1,995 people had not been convicted of any offence? Secondly, am I right in supposing that they allege that the orders given them are not in accordance with proper orders? I should like to get answers to those two questions. I have one other.
LORD LLOYDMy Lords, since this matter was fully debated in your Lordships' House about a year ago, the noble Viscount should by now be aware of the situation of detainees in Kenya. Many Mau Mau terrorists were detained under emergency regulations and, as the noble Viscount should be aware, they were so detained because they could not be left at large, as they were a menace to public security and their activities were leading to the murder of innocent citizens. It is true that many of them were detained under the emergency regulations, without being convicted in the ordinary process of law, and the reason for that is that in the circumstances of the emergency it was quite impossible to obtain witnesses and go through the ordinary legal processes.
The noble Viscount is wrong in thinking that these people were being asked to do anything which under the emergency regulations they should not properly be asked to do. I would refer the noble Viscount to the Emergency Regulations, 1954. Regulation 22 (1) states:
Every person for the time being detained in a special detention camp may be usefully employed in work which the officer in charge is satisfied will assist in bringing the emergency to an end, and to that end shall do such work of the nature aforesaid as he may be required to do by the officer in charge.I hope the noble Viscount will feel that that is a satisfactory reply to his question.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Lord for his answer, but two things emerge from it quite clearly. First, these people have not been tried and convicted of anything. The second point is that it is stated on some authority that they allege that the work given to them is not covered by the emergency order. What is the correct course for them to pursue? To whom should they appeal? Also, is it the custom to allow members of the public and journalists to go and see this island and see what is going on?
LORD LLOYDMy Lords, I do not think that the whole situation of the detainees in Kenya can be raised under a Question of this kind. If the noble Viscount wishes to consider the wider aspects, he can, of course, put a Motion on the Paper. If the people claim that they are being asked to do things which the Order does not permit them to be asked to do, which I understand is the noble Viscount's point, if he will give the details of what he claims is wrong in that respect I shall certainly be prepared to look into it. The noble Viscount would know perfectly well that a number of people have been allowed to visit these camps and places of detention, and there is no reason why anybody who wishes to see the authorities, provided they do so in the proper manner, should not do so. Many have done.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, I am pleased to hear that the island is open to inspection, but I have not yet received an answer to the question whether these people allege that the work demanded of them is not covered by the emergency regulations. A statement in that regard appeared in The Times about ten days ago and it was upon that information that I based my question. I hope I shall not be told that I "should be aware" of the answer; it will save time if that is omitted. It comes to this: that these people are detained on the word of an officer, and until that officer says he considers that there is an improvement in their character, they remain there. They may be what are called "lifers".
LORD LLOYDMy Lords, I will not make any assumption about the noble Viscount's knowledge or his ignorance, and we will assume that the noble Viscount knows nothing—something that has 97 occurred to me before. Nevertheless, the noble Viscount says that these people allege certain things. He has not told me what they allege or in what respect they are being ill-treated or misused in any way. It seems difficult to go into the matter if the noble Viscount does not tell me what the allegation is. I read the relevant section and the noble Viscount can read it in Hansard to-morrow. If he then still thinks he has a case, I shall be prepared to look into it.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, I will not pursue the matter except to say that it is a cause of great shame to think that about 40,000 people in the British Empire are detained on warrants without trial. As regards the specific character—
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEI have been asked what was their complaint. Their complaint was as reported in the newspaper, that the work required was not covered by the emergency regulations. That is clear enough, I think.