§ 3.5 p.m.
§ LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCEMy Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the great hardship inflicted on persons who have to move to new houses, owing to the small rations of petrol that are being allowed to furniture-removal firms, and what steps they propose to take to remedy this hardship.]
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (THE EARL OF SELKIRK)My Lords, to save petrol at the present time we must ask all those who need transport to use the railways whenever possible. British Railways have special facilities for this type of work and it forms part of their normal services. If, however, the distance involved is very short, or if, for some reason, rail transport is impracticable, furniture removal firms can do the work, using their basic ration and any supplementary ration they may receive. My right honourable friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation has issued general instructions to regional transport commissioners concerning supplementary rations, and these include an instruction that special consideration should be given to traffics which require the use of specially constructed vehicles and which cannot be transferred to other forms of transport.
§ LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCEMy Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for his Answer, do the Government not realise that, in cases of large masses of furniture, it is really impracticable to use the railways? Would it not be possible in certain cases, to grant to the householder a special permit which he could hand over to the furniture removal agency?
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, I think that where the use of the railways is impracticable, there is no reason why the regional transport commissioners, on the instructions which have been issued, should not be in a position to give supplementary rations in certain cases, but I must not under-emphasise that in all cases where the traffic can conceivably be carried in a practical way by the railways, we have to give all encouragement that it should be so carried.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether the House is to take it that the sole arbiter as to whether a firm is to move its goods, either furniture or any other type of goods, by rail—whether it is inconvenient or not—will be the regional transport commissioner?
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, the regional transport commissioner has been charged with the task of issuing supplementary rations in this matter. Whilst I hesitate to use the word "sole" in that matter, he is certainly the arbiter in the first place. I presume that the application might come from the operator of the service concerned.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for his reply, because there is great confusion in the country over this matter. May I ask this further question? If the noble Earl says that, although the regional transport commissioner may be the first arbiter he is not the final one, who is the final one? Is there an appeal to the Minister and, if so, to which Minister—the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation or the Minister of Fuel and Power?
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, I do not think I can carry that matter any further at the present time. I said that I did not want to use the word "sole" arbiter, but the Commissioner will certainly give a decision in the first place. I am not prepared to say that, in certain circumstances, the Minister might not review his instructions, but at the present juncture the decision is made by the regional transport commissioners, and I am not in a position to say that there is any system of appeal existing now.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, this is the last day, until January 22, 1315 on which your Lordships' House, at least, will have the opportunity of asking for information, and during that time a lot can happen. Would the noble Earl give an assurance that either the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation or the Minister of Fuel and Power will issue a statement as to which Ministry, after the regional transport commissioner has used his powers to decide whether certain goods have to go by rail or by road, an appeal is to be made, so that the hundreds and thousands of haulage people and industrialists throughout the country will know precisely what the procedure is?
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, I will certainly consider the point. I should not like to carry it any further at the moment, but I appreciate the point the noble Lord has in mind.
§ LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCEMy Lords, if the noble Earl is letting my noble friend know which Minister is concerned, perhaps he will kindly let me know at the same time.