HL Deb 17 April 1956 vol 196 cc1057-70

3.24 p.m.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL. OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]

Clause 1:

Reorganisation of scientific and industrial research

1.—(1) The Department of Scientific and Industrial Research (in this Act referred to as "the Department") shall be placed under the charge of a Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (in this Act referred to as "the Research Council") whose functions under this Act shall be exercised on behalf of the Crown and whose members shall be appointed by the Lord President of the Council, after consultation with the President of the Royal Society.

(2) In the exercise of any powers or the performance of any duties conferred or imposed upon them by this Act, the Research Council shall comply with any directions which may from time to time be given to them by a Committee of the Privy Council for scientific and industrial research consisting of the Lord President of the Council and such other members as Her Majesty may from time to time appoint; and for the purposes of the Ministers of the Crown (Transfer of Functions) Act, 1946, the expression "Minister of the Crown" in that Act shall include that Committee.

(3) The Research Council shall be charged with the organisation development and encouragement of scientific and of industrial research and with the dissemination of the results of such research, and may in particular establish or develop institutions or departments of institutions for investigation and research relating to the advancement of trade and industry.

(4) The Research Council may make grants for the purposes of any of their functions under the last foregoing subsection and may also make grants for post-graduate instruction in science or technology.

LORD CHERWELL had given notice of an Amendment to add to subsection (1): one third of the said members being scientists holding or having held academic posts. The noble Lord said: I should like to apologise to the House at the outset for my absence during the Second Reading debate. Had I been here I should have wished to join in the tributes to Sir Ben Lockspeiser for the admirable way in which he carried out his variegated and difficult tasks. I would also have expressed misgivings as to whether it will be possible to find men of sufficient distinction and status who are able and willing to give the large amount of time which a Council, which is executive rather than advisory, will have to devote to the activities of the Department. Still, I must hope for the best.

The reason for moving my first Amendment is, I think, fairly obvious: I am anxious that: the Department should continue to support and foster scientific research, including basic scientific research, as it has done hitherto. Unlike the noble Lord who has addressed us and seemed to be disturbed by the view of parti-coloured rabbits on his lawn, I have a great belief in scientific research. When the Department was first set up there was a good deal of argument as to whether it should be called the Department of Industrial and Scientific Research, or the. Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. In the end it was decided— quite rightly, in my view, since all industrial research is primarily based on scientific research—that the word "Scientific" should come first. I am anxious that this intention should not be forgotten, and that the excellent work which the Department has done in supporting scientific research in the universities should continue.

It may be said, of course, that this arrangement, by which a good deal of pure academic scientific research is supported by the Department, is somewhat odd and that it ought to be the responsibility of the University Grants Committee or some similar body. Still, that is the way things have developed, and I am anxious that no fundamental change should be made at this stage without the closest consideration. It has been said that the present system is untidy. But tidiness is not everything. Indeed, I have heard it said—fortunately I have no experience of it—that many households have broken up because of the insistence on excessive tidiness of one partner or the other. Some industries, of course, are enlightened and realise the importance of fundamental research. But some are not. It is to ensure that the scientific aspect of the Department's activities is not lost sight of that I hope the Government may be prepared to accept the Amendment I have put down.

There is one slip in the Amendment before the Committee which I hope I may be allowed to correct now. With the permission of the Committee, I desire to insert at the beginning of my Amendment, by a manuscript Amendment, or however it is done, the words "at least," which were omitted by a typist's error. Thus the Amendment would read, at the end of the first section of the first clause: at least one-third of the said members being scientists holding or having held academic posts. I am sure that the Lord President who is now in office will ensure that fundamental science is properly represented on the Research Council. But, unfortunately, Governments change and the post of Lord President of the Council is not a permanent appointment. For this reason, and not because I am in any doubt as to the intentions of the Lord President, I hope that the Government will see their way to accept my Amendment in the form I have just read out, or, if preferred, in some similar form which will satisfy my objective. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 12, at end insert ("at least one-third of the said members being scientists holding or having held academic posts.")—(Lord Cherwell.)

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY)

I am sure that everybody in this House appreciates, and sympathises with, the purpose underlying the Amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, has just moved. But all the same, I hope that he will not press it. I can assure him that I do not say this because I want fewer scientists on the new Council. On the contrary, I understand that, under the present system, in the existing Advisory Council there are already more than the one-third of the membership who are scientists. I can assure him that I have no wish to see that proportion reduced under the Bill which is now before your Lordships. With the noble Lord, I believe that scientists are at least as necessary as industrialists on this particular Council. But I believe—and I think other noble Lords will agree with me in this—that it is undesirable to allocate specific proportions of membership of a body of this kind to representatives of this or that section of the community; because, if that were done, it would in my view only stimulate a demand for further allocations of membership, and eventually this body would become a mere aggregation of delegates of this or that interest instead of being what I am certain it ought to be, a body of members chosen for their own personal qualities and qualifications.

Moreover, the provision that the President of the Royal Society should be brought into consultation in connection with the membership of the new Council should in any case, I imagine, be an entire safeguard to ensure that science is properly represented. I can assure the noble Lord that there is really no difference of intention between him and me over this matter. In view of what I have said and the assurance I have given him, I hope that the noble Lord will not press the matter.

LORD CHERWELL

In view of what the noble Marquess has said, I am certainly glad and ready to withdraw the Amendment. I ant certain the assurance he has given will give a considerable amount of comfort to many of my friends. The argument that we do not want to have a whole lot of categories specified is a strong one. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD CHERWELL moved, in subsection (3), after "industrial research" to insert: including the provision of such help to science and research in the universities as has heretofore been provided by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. The noble Lord said: With your Lordships' permission, I will take the second and third Amendments standing in my name together, as they are closely interlocked. After what has been said, I do not think I need detain the House vary long in moving these Amendments. As I have said, the Department has done most valuable work in supporting scientific research in the universities, and most of us would agree that it would be a disaster if this work were reduced or, worse still, stopped. But I am not at all clear whether the words in the Bill allow the Research Council to continue with this work. I know that one could interpret the words in subsection (3) of Clause 1: The Research Council shall be charged with the…encouragement of scientific and of industrial research so as to include giving help to science and research in the universities. On the other hand, a Council in which the industrial point of view predominated—a matter on which I hope I have now been reassured—might consider that this was only a secondary part of its functions, or, indeed, that it should be left to some other body.

As I have said, the Department has done invaluable work in the past by giving maintenance grants to students who had taken their first degree to enable them to carry on post-graduate research and obtain higher degrees. Not long ago, I gather, it was proposed by some industrialists, with the support of the Board of Education, that the number of these maintenance grants should be cut down so as to force the young men to take posts with industrial firms or become schoolmasters. This is an instance of the shortsighted attitude of mind towards fundamental research which I deplore and which causes anxiety to many of us in the universities. Of course, these men working on maintenance grants for higher degrees do so under general supervision, and it might be held that they are covered by subsection (4) of Clause 1 which Ientitles the Research Council make grants for post-graduate instruction in science or technology. But as these men are, in effect, carrying out independent research with only some general supervision, the Research Council might quite well decide that they were not covered by this clause. A fortiori this would hold for senior research awards made to men who have completed their post-graduate training and who have, in the words of the regulation, exceptional aptitude for original and independent research". Therefore I suggest that the words "and research" should be inserted after the word "instruction" in line 9 on page 2 of the Bill. Even more remote from any instructional aspects are the grants made for the development of what are called "researches of exceptional timeliness and promise," which have hitherto been encouraged by the Department and which form a most valuable aspect of its functions.

Finally, as the Lord President knows, the Department has since 1945 made available large sums of money to enable nuclear research to be carried on in the universities. The apparatus required for this tends to be excessively expensive, and unforeseen calls for support are apt to develop which cannot easily be met by by the University Grants Committee. The gigantic machinery, costing sometimes millions of pounds, can obviously not properly be allocated to the various universities and I think the present intention is to erect such apparatus in a national centre to which accredited senior members from the universities will have access. But unless nuclear research is to die out, it is essential that a considerable modicum should continue at the universities if only to prepare men to use the big machines in the national centre. This will require apparatus that is expensive by university standards—say, some hundreds of thousands of pounds, though not, of course, in the million-pound class.

My impression is that it is intended that the provision of apparatus of this sort should continue to be one of the responsibilities of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, but I can well imagine the new Council taking the line that it should not be saddled with this difficult task. I am very greatly concerned lest anything of the sort I have mentioned should happen, and it is for that reason that I wish to insert after "research" in line 3 of subsection (3) of Clause 1, which describes the responsibility of the Research Council, the words including the provision of such help to science and research in the universities as has heretofore been provided by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. Unless the Council is definitely enjoined to go on doing this, it might well, if it so pleased, decide to discontinue all these most important functions. A Government Department is not apt suddenly to change the scope of its activities, even if this is recommended by an advisory committee, but an executive Council, with all the enthusiasm of the new broom, may think it ought to use it to make a clean sweep; and it is this which many of us in the universities fear. I hope that the Government will relieve our anxieties by inserting n the Bill words such as I have suggested, or words having the same effect. I beg to move the second Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 3, after ("research") insert the said words.—(Lord Cherwell.)

LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON

I hope the Government will find it possible to accept the two Amendments to which the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, has spoken: they are directed to the same broad purpose. It was with some such misgivings in mind that I myself attempted, on Second Reading, to extend the consultations when the Council was being appointed. But since I appreciate that the manner which Lord Cherwell has chosen is a far better way of securing this purpose, I should like to confirm that I myself have heard from university sources considerable misgivings of the same kind. For that reason, I hope that the Amendments can be accepted.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

Like the two preceding speakers, I will, if I may, deal with both these Amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, together. I think that these Amendments are due to a misunderstanding on the part of the noble Lord and those who take the same view as he does. I think that in their minds there is a suggestion that the effect of the wording of this new Bill will be to limit and even reduce the scope of the work which has hitherto been done by the D.S.I.R. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, that there has been no intention on the part either of myself or, so far as I know, of anybody else, in any way to limit the objects for which the funds of the D.S.I.R. can at present be used or will in future be used.

As I see it, in reality Clause 1 (3) is very widely drawn indeed. I will remind your Lordships of the wording of it. Clause 1 (3) says: The Research Council shall be charged with the organisation, development and encouragement of scientific and of industrial research and with the dissemination of the results of such research, as may in particular establish or develop institutions or departments of institutions for investigation and research relating to the advancement of trade and industry. Those words are tremendously wide. I should have thought that they must include anything which the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, or the noble Lord, Lord Wilmot of Selmeston, or anybody else could possibly wish, including the words of the noble Lord's own Amendment—namely, including the provision of such help to science and research in the universities as has heretofore been provided by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. After all, the greater includes the less, and the universities are included in the wider scope of subsection (3). I think that the new words are not a contraction of the present scope of the D.S.I.R., but represent an extension of the words which were used in the original Order in Council which referred to the organisation and development of scientific and industrial research. Nothing that there is in the words which I have read conflicts with that.

LORD CHERWELL

The point we are anxious about is that this is permissive and the new Research Council may take a different view from that which has hitherto been taken by the Department.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

It has always been permissive. So far as I know, there has never been an obligation on the D.S.ILR. to do this, that, or the other. The scope is defined and was defined by the Order in Council and it has been left to the D.S.I.R. to apply this definition in practice as they wish. I have no reason to suppose that they would wish to limit it any further. I do not know what ground the noble Lord has for thinking that that is so. There is no difference in the new plan from what there was, so far as I know, under the old one. At the same time, I am most anxious that there should he no misunderstanding in matter because I well realise that it has given rise to a certain amount of anxiety. If, after what I have said, the noble Lord and other noble Lords still feel that the meaning is not clear and that there might be implied a certain limitation of the scope of the work of this new body, I will see whether we can meet him.

I have made inquiries and I understand that the exact wording of his first Amendment which we are now discussing will not do in its present form; but I ant quite ready to see whether it can be drafted in other words so as to give effect to what he wants. If I can get that, I suggest either that he or I should discuss it and that he should put down an Amendment on the Report stage, or, if he is agreeable, that I should put it down as a Government Amendment. But I assure him that, in my view, and from all the inquiries that I have made, it is not really necessary. The existing words in fact cover all he wants, including, so far as I know, nuclear research. In view of this assurance, he may decide to leave the wording as it is. I am entirely in his hands over that matter and I will do whatever he prefers.

Perhaps I can now say a word about the second Amendment which, as he has said, is closely allied to the first. Here again, I think there is some misunderstanding in the mind of the noble Lord. Subsection (4), to which his Amendment refers, reads as follows: The Research Council may make grants for the purposes of any of their functions under the last foregoing subsection and may also make grants for post-graduate instruction in science or technology. The first part of subsection (4) refers back to subsection (3) and enables grants to be given for any of the purposes which are enumerated in subsection (3). The second part of subsection (4), by the second half of the sentence, then goes on to add another purpose—instruction. It says: may also make grants for post-graduate instruction in science or technology. That is new; it is something which the D.S.I.R. could not do before. But it does not detract from the other functions; it merely adds an additional purpose to which grants may be allocated.

Here, again, I do not know whether what I have said makes the position clear, but if it does not, I shall be quite ready to see whether we cannot split up subsection (4), adding the first half of subsection (4) to subsection (3) and making it clear that A refers to grants for the purpose of subsection (3); and then limiting the new subsection (4) to the additional purpose which has now been introduced—namely, instruction. I personally think that that would improve the wording of the Bill. I think it would make the position clearer. I should be most ready to do that if the noble Lord wishes.

EARL WINTERTON

My Lords, I should like to put a point to the Lord President. I am quite incompetent to speak on the scientific aspect of this clause, but this is an administrative question. It so happens that I was lunching with a distinguished Member of your Lordships' House—as he is not present, I cannot mention his name as I have not his authority to do so—and, after paying tribute in conversation to the admirable work done by the bodies to which this Bill refers, he said that he thought that a weakness in our scientific system in Britain was that there was no Minister directly responsible for bringing continued pressure to bear upon industries to make use of the discoveries made. He mentioned, in particular, certain new methods in the use of coal for power purposes. The question which I direct to my noble friend the Leader of the House, is this. Clause 1 (3) says: may in particular establish or develop institutions or departments of institutions for investigation and research relating to the advancement of trade and industry. In the event of important discoveries being thus made, I suppose it would be the duty of the President of the Board of Trade to bring the matter to the notice of industry—or would it be the duty of my noble friend's Department?

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I think the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, may know this, and the noble Earl need not think that industry does not keep in close touch. There are about fourteen research stations at the present time, and most of them are in the closest contact with industry. In addition, there are a number of co-operative Research Associations—I think they number about forty—which are largely financed by industry and have only comparatively small grants-in-aid from the D.S.I.R. I do not think, therefore, that such a situation exists. I may be quite wrong, but I think that if the new Executive Council suddenly happened on something very important and new it would be for them to bring that to the notice of industry. I have no doubt that they would do so, for that is the purpose for which they exist. I should not like to say that it would be the job of the present bodies to do so. Rather I should think it would be for the Executive Council themselves to take the initiative in the matter. In fact they are the only people who could do so.

EARL WINTERTON

I am very much obliged.

LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON

I should be glad if the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, would proceed with these Amendments under the offer which the Lord President has made. The importance of fundamental research could be lost sight of in the future, in the clamant claims of more immediate industrial purposes; and the change which takes place means, of course, that this is an executive body charged with full responsibility under the Crown for this administration. I think it is very important, therefore, that Amendments on the lines suggested by the Lord President should be embodied in the Bill so that this change will not in any way interfere with the recognised importance of fundamental research in the universities.

LORD CHERWELL

I am grateful to the Lord President for what he has said, and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wilmot of Selmeston. I should like to see these words, or something like them, embodied in the Bill. The possibility which frightens us is that this new Research Council will have the right to go on encouraging science in the universities but is not enjoined to do so, and that it might take a totally different line from that hitherto pursued. Your Lordships will see, in the Bill, a broad general expression of its tasks: The Research Council shall he charged with the organization, development and encouragement of scientific and of industrial research and with the dissemination of the results of such research. Then there is an exceptional provision: and may in particular establish or develop institutions or departments of institutions for investigation and research relating to the advancement of trade and industry. I take it that that means research associations. If those are more or less specified, one would like to see help to the universities specified as one of the activities in which they ought to indulge. If the Lord President could manage to get some form of words to make that clear it would give great reassurance.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I can reassure the noble Lord. I shall be very happy to do that, but I would again emphasise that it has never been a feature of the D.S.I.R. that it is enjoined to do any particular thing. The Department has very wide scope for its research and inquiries, and it is, and always has been, left to the Department to develop those researches as best it can. I feel that it must continue to do so. With that limitation, I shall be quite prepared to see what I can draft, and if and when I find a form of words I will get into touch with the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, to see whether he approves them.

LORD CHERWELL

I thank the noble Marquess.

LORD MILNER OF LEEDS

Following upon what has been said by the noble Marquess I should know, but I am afraid I do not, whether the Department publishes a report with the results of its researches. If so, that would, of course, go some way to carrying out what the noble Earl Lord Winterton, inquired about. Clearly the results ought to be made available in some form and I presume the Department issues a report year by year or at intervals. I now gather from my noble friend Lord Wilmot of Selmeston that it does publish a report, though I gather that it is not in a very detailed form.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

It would be impossible to produce in detail the results of all the research at fourteen research stations. Industries which deal with these particular subjects know perfectly well that research is going on in them, and it is always open to them to go to a station at any moment to consult people there and to find out the results of what is going on. It is equally open to them to send their own problems to these stations and get them resolved there, so that there is no question of any chasm between the two sides.

EARL WINTERTON

I apologise for intervening again, but as the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, has referred to my speech I should like to make it plain that I was trying to discover which Minister would be responsible for trying to secure implementation of the reports. The information which I have—admittedly secondhand, because I cannot use it without authorisation from my noble friend who is a distinguished Member of your Lordships' House—suggested that there was lack of machinery to secure the use of the very valuable results of these investigations. After what the noble Marquess the Leader of the House has told us, I am quite satisfied that that is not so.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES

Does the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, wish now to withdraw his Amendments, so that a form of wording may be found before the Bill leaves this House?

LORD CHERWELL

In view of what the noble Marquess has said, I ask leave to withdraw the first Amendment, and I will not move the second; and I hope that we shall find an agreed form for the next stage of the Bill.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 1 agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON

Before we pass this stage, I should like to thank the Lord President for the figures which he sent me. I asked whether he could give me a statement showing total Government expenditure on research in all departments, but he has informed me that the figures I have received are available in various places and I am very grateful to him. I feel however that it would be helpful if at some time these figures could be codified or assembled so as to make quite clear what we are doing with the money Mat is spent in this way.

House resumed.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now received. In doing so, I should like to say one word. It is this: there are, in fact, no Amendments, and therefore there will be no separate Report stage. But I have promised to consider one or two points and see whether Amendments can be tabled. In a case like this, such Amendments will have to be put down on Third Reading. I know your Lordships do not like Amendments on Third Reading—I do not like them either—hut these are rather unusual circumstances, and I hope the House will understand if this procedure is adopted.

Moved, That the Report be now received.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, Motion agreed to: Bill reported without Amendment.