§ 2.52 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission I should like to ask for elucidation of a point of order from the Leader of the House. I put the point to his office this morning. It is this. Yesterday, in accordance with a Notice on the Order Paper, which included the names of the proposed members, we appointed a very important 253 Committee. The chairmanship of Committees is governed by Standing Order 54, which I will read:
The Lord nominated Chairman of Committees at the commencement of every session shall take the chair in all Committees of the Whole House, and in all other Committees of the House, unless the House otherwise directs.There was no notice yesterday that the House was to be invited to make any other direction and, in point of fact, the Motion which was put by the Leader of the House was in these terms:That a Select Committee be appointedand so on; and then:and that the Lords following be named of the Committee …The Minutes of Proceedings record that the Motion was, "after Debate, agreed to"; and then are added these words which have no warrant, so far as I am aware, from any Question put from the Woolsack:The Committee to meet on Tuesday next, at half-past four o'clock, and to appoint their own Chairman.That is to say, what is set down in Standing Order 54 as the duty of the House appears to have been arrogated by some other party. It is net a matter of detail; it seems to me it is a matter of great importance. I would ask the Leader of the House to give us sonic enlightenment as to how those words came to be included in the Minutes.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY)My Lords, of course, the actual appointment of the Chairman of the Committee will not be made until the first meeting of the Committee. It is perfectly true that the Standing Order is as the noble Viscount has said; but, at the time when this matter was under discussion, the Lord Chairman, as we all know, was, unhappily, in bad health, and it was doubtful whether he would be able to occupy this position. I therefore made unofficial inquiries of the leaders of the other Parties and they were agreeable that, in the circumstances, another Chairman should be appointed. That is the position as it stands. Obviously, if the noble Earl, Lord Drogheda, is not on the list of names of the Committee, then he cannot act as Chairman. Therefore, it 254 would be for the Committee to appoint the Chairman that they think right. Naturally, in the circumstances—it is an important Committee—I did make soundings of the leaders of the other Parties as to which noble Lord would be suitable to occupy the position, and I believe there was a general measure of agreement as to who it might be. But the final step will be taken by the Committee itself.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, may I direct the attention of the Leader of the House to the words of the Companion to the Standing Orders, which says, at page 72, apropos of the point that the Chairman of Committees is not named among the members of this Committee:
If the power of appointing their chairman is not expressly conferred on a Committee, the Chairman of Committees (whether named of the Committee or not) is the chairman.I never doubted for a moment that the Lord Chairman, who presides over these other Committees, would be Chairman of this Committee. That is the first point.The second point is that no substitution of what are called "usual channels" for the House seems to be satisfactory. Standing Order 54 says that the Lord Chairman shall preside
unless the House otherwise directs.But the House has never given any such direction. What will the Committee do when they meet? Suppose the validity of this Minute is challenged and someone says: "The House has never decided that the Committee shall appoint its own chairman and therefore Standing Order 54 applies."
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, as I say, the Chairman has not yet been appointed. He will be appointed in due course. Clearly, it could not be the Lord Chairman of Committees, because he is not on the list of members. The circumstances were unusual at the time when the discussions originally took place. After; all, if it had not been for the General Election this matter would have been settled perhaps a month or six weeks ago. I am quite certain that the noble Earl, Lord Drogheda, would agree that at that time he was not, unhappily, in a condition of health to allow him to sit. Therefore provisional arrangements were made to enable this Committee to sit as soon as possible. If the noble Viscount feels that this matter should be confirmed by the 255 House, I do not think there is any objection to the matter being referred to the House, and I suggest that it should be done after the first meeting of the Committee—I do not see any objection to that, if that is, in fact, the correct procedure. Obviously, we all wish to keep to the correct procedure, but I feel that the noble Viscount is making rather a mountain out of a molehill.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEThat is exactly what I was afraid of in raising this point, that someone would say that I was making too much of a small thing. But it is not a small thing. If the House is to be deprived of the power of making the decision giving the appointment of the Chairman to the Committee—if it is to be deprived by some private arrangements—then it is an infringement of the ordinary powers of the House. Of course, we all regret the ill-health of the Lord Chairman very much, but the noble Marquess the Leader of the House says that as the Lord Chairman is not a member of the Committee he cannot be the Chairman. That is specifically contradicted in the Companion to the Standing Orders, which at page 72 used the words
whether named of the Committee or not.I am conscious of the fact that it would be quite easy to answer me by saying that this is just an attempt to create difficulties—but it is not so. This is a matter which concerns all Parties in the whole House, and if the power to appoint the Chairman of the Committee is to be withdrawn from the House as a whole and the appointment is simply to be made "on the cuff" in some way I think it is a pity. However, I have raised the point, and I shall say no more about it.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI can assure the noble Viscount that, if that is the wish of the House, and if it is indeed the correct procedure, there will be no difficulty at all in bringing the matter to the attention of the House. I shall be happy to do so. But I would say to the noble Viscount that there are a great many Committees of which the Lord Chairman is not a member, and in this House it is not invariable that he should be.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEI am quite satisfied, and I am very grateful for the leadership of the noble Marquess. He has said that the words "and that the 256 Committee appoint its own chairman," should have gone into the substantive Motion. Had that happened, and had the Contents had it, the Standing Orders would have been complied with. But, as it was, the words were put in as a sort of appendix, without the authority of the House. That is my whole point. The noble Marquess has conceded the point most graciously, and I am satisfied.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I can assure the noble Viscount and the House that the last thing I want to do is to offend against the Rules and customs of this House. I do not in the least complain that the noble Viscount should have raised this question. Perhaps he will now allow me to look into it to see what is the best way in which it can be dealt with.