HL Deb 27 July 1955 vol 193 cc1141-8

6.38 p.m.

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will take immediate action to prevent the interruption of the debates in this House caused by the noise of the helicopters passing between South Bank and London Airport. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I will detain your Lordships for only a few minutes. On Wednesday last, during a most interesting debate, we were subjected to various interruptions by the noise of helicopters. The noise became so bad that I was moved to make what was, for your Lordships' House, a violent protest. I asked whether something could not be done "to stop this infernal row." And the noble Earl, Lord Munster, who was speaking at the time, said that he would acquaint the noble Marquess the Leader of the House of this and see if something could be done. Knowing that on the following Monday the noise was likely to get considerably worse, as the number of helicopters, I understood, was to be greatly augmented on that day, and without casting any reflection on the noble Marquess—I hope the noble Marquess will accept this; he always does everything that he can for your Lordships' convenience—I put this Question on the Order Paper, hoping that perhaps my protest and the Notice on the Order Paper, three days ahead, would have the desired effect.

Through the enterprise of one of the daily journals which report the affairs of your Lordships' House, I read the following morning that the executive head of B.E.A. had been interviewed upon the subject and had stated that the helicopters in future would not fly over the Palace of Westminster but would follow a devious route and that they would be fitted with even more effective silencers. I must confess that to-day and yesterday there has been a marked improvement. We have had interruptions to-day, it is true. Fate seems to be unkind to me because the major interruptions have occurred each time I have been addressing your Lordships. I would not say that that was malice aforethought on the part of B.E.A. It has been a nuisance and I think it is likely to remain a nuisance, because I understand that the South Bank landing site for helicopters will be used not only by B.E.A., an organisation which appreciates the importance of your Lordships' House and the speeches that are made in it, but also by other users of helicopters, notably the Service Departments. I assume that they are not going to fit silencers, so that when one of these machines is passing over we shall be interrupted as much as ever.

I do not want to make a big point of this, but some of us who attend the House regularly and take great interest in the proceedings do like to hear the speeches that are made, and I think we are entitled to hear them. On the previous occasion we had not been able to hear some of the speeches that were made, and during the reply on behalf of the Government, on a very important subject, I could not hear a word. That was what prompted my outburst. I am not going to broaden the issue too widely, but I hope that the situation which is going to be alleviated for your Lordships is not going to be passed on to somebody else. I say definitely that this aircraft noise has to be treated seriously. If not only Members of your Lordships' House but also ordinary citizens are going to be subject to this "infernal" noise—I repeat the expression—I think the British public will have something very strong to say. I do not accept the argument that may be put forward that these machines cannot be silenced.

As this is not a Motion, but only a Question, and I shall not have the right of reply, I hope I am not going to be told that I am standing in the way of progress. As I understand it, progress is the furtherance of the amenities of the ordinary citizens. This is just the furtherance of a nuisance. If in their wisdom Parliament had not passed an Act thirty odd years ago, we should be deafened by unsilenced motor cars. Motor cars are now silenced, and if it is possible to silence an internal combustion engine in a motor car, it is equally possible to silence an internal combustion engine in an aeroplane. I can say that, not only from my own technical knowledge and experience but also after consulting experts on the subject. The reason why aircraft are not silenced as much as they should be and in many cases not at all is that the law does not require it. That is the plain reason. Necessity is always the mother of invention, and if there were a law saying that no aeroplane could fly over a thickly populated area unsilenced, the technicians in the aircraft industry would soon find a way of silencing them. These helicopters have been silenced and I would express my appreciation to B.E.A. for taking that step. I do not see why they cannot be silenced a little more, because we have had some disturbance this afternoon, though not so much as we had before. I hope the noble Earl will convey my remarks to the powers that be. I think that I am not alone in making this protest and that many other noble Lords agree with what I have said.

I have discussed this question of silencing aeroplanes with one of the most prominent makers of aircraft engines in this country, who makes one of the most famous motor cars in the world. His firm have succeeded in making the motor car engine absolutely silent, and the same thing could be done for aircraft, though it may take time and may be a little expensive or add weight to the aircraft. I make a strong plea that aircraft noise should have the serious attention of the Government, and I hope that in your Lordships' House in future we shall be able to listen to the debates in reasonable silence.

6.45 p.m.

LORD WINSTER

My Lords, I should like to make a brief intervention because I have always been interested in the development of the helicopter and have a great belief in its future. All noble Lords will agree that it is most desirable that our debates should be conducted without interruption or disturbance and I am sure that British European Airways Corporation realise that also. We have the advantage of having the Chairman of the Corporation amongst us, and I know that Mr. Masefield, the Chief Executive, is an extremely reasonable man who spends a great deal of his time and energy in consulting the convenience of the public. I am sure he would wish to consult the convenience of your Lordships just as much.

I should like to congratulate B.E.A.C. upon their enterprise in starting this service, cutting out the drive to the airport. I think it was the American columnist, Mr. Walter Winchell, who said that flying would never become popular until the drive to the airport had been cut out. I think that is very true, especially in regard to the drive to the airport in New York. It is a deadly affair. It is on that account that I should wish to congratulate B.E.A.C. on their enterprise in starting this service. I am perfectly sure that they are doing all they possibly can to minimise any inconvenience the service might cause. Of course, at the present time they are under certain difficulties, because they are operating the service with single-engined aircraft, which involves their taking a certain route. They have to follow the Thames more than they will have to do when the twin-engined aircraft comes along. I think that the South Bank site will not go on for ever and that in the reasonably near future another site will be chosen as the base for this service.

My noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth said something about being accused of standing in the way of progress. I do not level that accusation against my noble friend, but, of course, it is the fact that progress almost inevitably involves a certain amount of inconvenience to the general public and almost inevitably encounters opposition. I remember reading that when the railways were developed in this country a certain clergymen preached from his pulpit that it was contrary to the will of Almighty God that men should travel at more than twenty miles an hour. I do not want any of that sort of spirit to obstruct the progress of the helicopter, which I think is bound to play a greater and greater part in meeting the convenience of the public. In conclusion, I would say that we can safely trust the Chairman and executives of the B.E.A., now that this matter has been ventilated, to do all that they can to see to it that your Lordships are not subjected to inconvenience by their helicopter service.

6.50 p.m.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

My Lords, I should like to express my admiration for the assiduity and perseverance of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, who has now addressed your Lordships for the third time in two days quite apart from a number of Questions. I can assure him that any interference with your Lordships' debates is necessarily a matter of concern to Her Majesty's Government. Perhaps I may say a word or two about the service to which the noble Lord has referred. It is being run by British European Airways between the South Bank and London Airport. I am not aware of anyone else using the South Bank, though there are other helicopters, which are not necessarily subject to the same control as those of British European Airways.

I should like to emphasise that my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport made it quite clear that before he was prepared to authorise this service, the helicopters being used on the route should be silenced—that he insisted upon. I think it is fair to say that these silencers have, in fact, made a considerable difference; I believe that something of the order of one-third of the previous noise is not now heard. For reasons of safety, it is necessary for the helicopters to be routed along the course of the Thames. The instructions now are that they shall fly at at least 1,000 feet, until they come practically over the landing site. Therefore, they should not cause undue disturbance to anyone who happens to be on the route. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, raised the question, which I cannot attempt to answer to-day, of aircraft noise in particular. At this hour perhaps I may confine myself entirely to helicopters.

The service to London Airport is by way of an experiment, and I want to emphasise that, though it may seem small, it is an important matter. The noble Lord, Lord Winster, emphasised that one of the great problems in every city, and not least in this city, is getting people from the centre of the city to the airport. It is a great problem, and it may be that helicopters can play an important part in the solution of that problem. But there is the other side—that of the development of the helicopter itself. The helicopter is among the most mobile things that man has invented: nothing else will go up or clown, backwards or sideways—and there are few things, even in nature, which have the astonishing ability of a helicopter. This type of machine has been under development for some twenty-five to thirty years, and it is still restricted to a relatively small field in which it has been operating successfully. I feel that anyone with a little imagination must realise that, when it is more fully developed, there is a considerable field in which it can be utilised. That is the background. The service is not a simple, idle commercial venture, but something which is being done as an experiment which may be of great significance.

However, that is no reason why it should cause unreasonable inconvenience to anybody. I think we can claim that the instructions that have been issued will minimise the inconvenience, if, indeed, they will not obviate it altogether. I was not in the House the whole of this afternoon, but I was yesterday. I find that six helicopters flew over yesterday, but I was not aware of one of them. It may be that I was listening to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, speaking, and that may be the reason I did not hear one, although others with more sensitive hearing possibly did. I do assure the noble Lord that the point he has raised will be watched, because it is obviously of great importance that we here should not be disturbed, or indeed that anyone else should suffer what I may describe as unreasonable inconvenience. As the noble Lord, Lord Winster, said, the site at South Bank is not a permanent one. At most it is hoped that it will be used for not more than two years, and steps are now being taken to find an alternative site which would perhaps better meet requirements. I assure the noble Lord that we have listened carefully to what he has said. He has brought the matter clearly to the attention of those who have control of the situation, and I feel sure that they will watch it closely in the future.

6.55 p.m.

LORD MATHERS

My Lords, the noble Earl has confined himself to the complaint of my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth with regard to this House, and we have not heard anything of any difficulty so far as another place is concerned. The reason, obviously, is that in another place the windows are not open. I believe that this complaint has arisen solely from the fact that the windows here have been wide open during these warm days. I think that, as a result of the great improvement that has been observed during the last day or two, there would have been no inconvenience at all if we had been in the fortunate position of another place of having air conditioning and therefore not requiring the windows to be open. Therefore, we must not blame the helicopter too much, because we have the position very much in our own hands. If this Chamber were equipped in the same way as the other place is equipped, I am sure that we should be free from the inconvenience that seems to have made a special butt of my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth. It was noticeable that when he spoke earlier to-day the helicopter was there; and even when he made two short interventions, on each occasion he seemed to cause a helicopter to fly across. I feel that we should express our indebtedness for the steps that have already been taken in regard to the greater flying height of the helicopter, and for what has been done to make it less of a disturbance to the debates in your Lordships' House. However, I believe that the real solution, so far as we are concerned—it is being selfish, because other interests outside are probably feeling the inconvenience as well—is that if the windows were closed it would make all the difference and would enable my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth to speak in peace.

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

My Lords, I can only address your Lordships again with permission, and I ask for that permission only so that I may thank the noble Earl very much for his reply.