MINES AND QUARRIES BILL

HL Deb 28 October 1954 vol 189 cc824-46

4.0 p.m.

House again in Committee

Clause 168 [Power of Minister and inspector to grant exemptions for limited period from commencement of this Act]:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

I do not think this Amendment is very much more than drafting This clause is essentially a temporary one. It is to meet the immediate case of many different mines in this country which, for some good reason, find that their arrangements cannot at once meet the higher standards required under this Bill. Power is therefore given to the Minister or the inspector temporarily to suspend the new requirements so far as the particular pit is concerned. The clause shows specific reasons, one of which may be the shortness of life, why this is done. We think the wording that we suggest is better, for whilst it would always be "practicable" to require compliance with a particular provision it might not be right to do so. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 101, line 20, leave out ("be impracticable") and insert ("not be right").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 168, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 169 [Provisions as to orders, rules, &c.]:

LORD HAWKE

This is a fair-sized drafting operation. Perhaps I should say a word or two on it. These two Amendments hang together. The second half of subsection (1) of this clause has already been lifted into a new clause in Part X by, I think, Amendment No. 267. The balance deals with orders and rules. The second subsection deals with orders, rules and regulations and, therefore, we think it more appropriate that the remaining part, the two subsections, should be separated into two separate clauses. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 101, line 35, leave out from ("rule") to end of line 40.—(Lord Hawke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HAWKE

This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— That Clause 169 be divided into two clauses, the first to consist of subsection (1); and the second to consist of subsection (2).—(Lord Hawke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 169, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 170 [Mode of service of notices under this Act]:

LORD HAWKE

This is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 102, line 27, after ("sending") insert ("or lodging").—(Lord Hawke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 170, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 171 [Provisions as to exemptions, &c.]:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved to leave out Clause 171 and to insert the following new clause:

Provisions as to exemptions, &c.

".—(1) Any power conferred by this Act or regulations on the Minister or an inspector to grant, give or impose an exemption, consent, approval, authority, direction, requirement, prohibition or restriction or to make a determination shall be construed as including a power exercisable in the like manner and subject to the like conditions, if any, to vary or revoke the exemption, consent, approval, authority, direction, requirement, prohibition, restriction or determination.

(2) Any exemption, consent, approval or authority granted or given under this Act or regulations by the Minister or an inspector may (subject to any express provision of this Act or regulations) he without limit of period or limited so as to expire on a specified date unless renewed, and may be absolute or conditional."

The noble Earl said: This is pure law. If your Lordships want me to explain it I will, but I do not think it is really more than the mechanism of the Bill. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 171 and insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clauses 172 to 174 agreed to.

Clause 175 [Meaning of "mine" and "quarry"]:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

If it is convenient to your Lordships I should like to explain Amendments Nos. 342 and 343 together. The first involves a slight variation in the meaning of "mine" and "quarry." There are some occasions when a quarry owner makes a tunnel as a passage through which to draw the products of his quarry. We do not want to bring such things into the meaning of a "mine," and accordingly we put in the words the mine is confined to places where persons are employed underground wholly or substantially for the purpose of getting minerals. Where there is a communication tunnel, we do not wish that that should cease thereby to be a quarry. The test is whether the method of getting the minerals is the reason for sending the people underground.

The next Amendment slightly extends the definition of "quarry" to include exploratory excavations made for the purpose of getting minerals. Minerals may be actually obtained in the exploratory excavations, but we think that they should be classified as a quarry. There appears to have been some doubt in the recent case of a certain opencast mine. The third point is a very special one, dealing with brine wells. These consist of a well with a pumping machine at the bottom, and sometimes a bore-hole is sunk from the bottom of the well. Normally, men go down only very rarely, at long intervals, for the purpose of maintenance. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 103, line 4, leave out from ("getting") to end of line 6 and insert ("wholly or substantially by means involving the employment of persons below ground of minerals (whether in their natural state or in solution or suspension) or products of minerals").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

I have already spoken on this Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 103, leave out lines 8 to 10 and insert ("or system of excavations made for the purpose of, or in connection with, the getting of minerals (whether in their natural state or in solution or suspension) or products of minerals, being neither e mine nor merely a well or bore-hole or a well and bore-hole combined.")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a slight extension of the word "minerals," to include products thereof gotten from a mine or quarry. The idea is that it may possibly include underground classification of mines at some future time. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 103, line 29, leave out ("gotten there-from") and insert ("or products thereof gotten from the quarry").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT FURNESS moved to leave out subsection (4) and insert instead: (4) For the purposes of this Act, premises for the time being used for depositing refuse from a single mine or quarry, being premises exclusively occupied by the owner of that mine or quarry, shall be deemed to form part of that mine or quarry, and premises for the time being used for depositing refuse from two or more mines or quarries, being premises occupied by the owner of one of those mines or quarries (either exclusively or jointly with the owner of the other or any of the others) shall be deemed to form part of such one of those mines or quarries as the Minister may direct.

The noble Viscount said: Subsection (4) at present provides that any deposit of refuse from a mine or quarry, and the premises used for it, shall be deemed to form part of that mine or quarry. That provision is suitable in most cases, but it sometimes happens that refuse from a mine or quarry is tipped on to a heap on land occupied by some person other than the owner of the mine or quarry—perhaps by a local authority. When that is the case, confusion and difficulty would result from deeming the site to form part of the mine or quarry, particularly as regards the responsibility under the Bill of the owner of the mine or quarry for the acts of the other person's workmen over whom he would have no control. This Amendment is intended to deal with the point by limiting the provision to refuse heaps which are on premises exclusively occupied by the owner of a mine or quarry. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 103, line 36, leave out subsection (4), and insert the said new subseetion.— (Viscount Furness.)

LORD HAWKE

We think that the noble Viscount has found another flaw in the Bill. We have pleasure in accepting his Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 175, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 176 [Meaning of "owner"]:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved to leave out Clause 176 and insert the following new clause:

Meaning of "owner."

.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, in this Act the expression "owner" means, in relation to a mine or quarry, the person for the time being entitled to work it.

(2) Where the working of a quarry is wholly carried out by a contractor on behalf of the person entitled to work it, the contractor shall, to the exclusion of that person, be taken for the purposes of this Act to be the owner of the quarry.

(3) Where two or more persons are entitled to work a quarry independently, that one of those persons who is the licensor of the others shall, to the exclusion of the others, be taken for the purposes of this Act to be the owner of the quarry.

(4) Where the business of a person who, by virtue of the foregoing provisions of this section is, for the purposes of this Act, to be taken to be owner of a mine or quarry is carried on by a liquidator, receiver or manager, or by some other person authorised to carry it on by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction, the liquidator, receiver, manager or other person shall be taken for the purposes of this Act to be an additional owner of the mine or quarry.

(5) This section shall, in its application to Scotland, have effect as if, for subsection (3), there were substituted the following subsection:— (3) Where two or more persons are entitled to work a quarry independently, and one of them has granted the right so to do to the other or others, that one shall, to the exclusion of the other or others, be taken for the purposes of this Act to be the owner of the quarry ".

The noble Earl said: This new clause is a definition of the meaning of "owner." The reason, of course, why this is necessary is because the word "owner" is used throughout this Bill in a sense in which many would understand "tenant." In many cases a mine is held or worked under a lease rather than by actual proprietorship. The only point here is that the owner of a mine is the person entitled to work it. As I say, that might be as the holder of a lease on that account, although, of course, it must be an exclusive lease. Where, in the case of a quarry, two people are entitled to work it, then whichever of them is the licensor of the other shall be the owner. This arises sometimes in the case of quarries. The only other point is subsection (4) deals with cases where a liquidator or receiver is appointed. In such cases such persons are regarded as additional owners of the mine as well as the one already existing in law. I would point out that subsection (5) includes an application to Scotland which has been amended for drafting purposes this morning. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 176 and insert the said new clause.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 177:

General interpretation provisions

177.—(1) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say— bodily injury" includes injury to health;

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

The words "bodily injury" are now used in only two cases in this Bill, and in both cases the meaning is clear. Therefore I beg to move this Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 104, line 26, leave out line 26.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

VISCOUNT HALL

I wish I could see this as clearly as the noble Earl does. My friends and I are wondering why, again at this late stage in the Bill, an Amendment to which we apply a great deal of importance should be moved. I know the difficulty in regard to definitions, but here we are dealing with one of the most sensitive things in connection with the mining industry—namely, accidents, sickness and other ailments. What I was hoping would be possible—and I make this plea to the noble Earl—was to leave this matter so that there could be discussions between myself and some of my noble friends with the noble Earl and someone from the Ministry, so that we could go fully into this matter. Otherwise, we shall have to deal with the question: How are you going to define all the industrial diseases to which miners are subject, and indeed from which they suffer from time to time? I should infinitely prefer discussing it as I have already suggested, rather than debating it here this afternoon. Perhaps I may put that suggestion to the noble Earl, to hear his reaction.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

I will certainly go into this if there is the slightest doubt or anxiety, but I am bound to confess that I thought there was none. The words "bodily injury" appear, I believe, in only two places in this Bill. They appear in Clause 36, which deals with transport—and I do not think that has much to do with disease—and they appear in Clause 91 in regard to first aid, where it specifically refers to persons who "suffer bodily injury or become ill." So clearly it is intended to include all possible forms of ailment. As we have the benefit of the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Haden-Guest, perhaps he will tell us whether he thinks the phrase "bodily injury" includes injury to health as well as to body. I think it should.

LORD HADEN-GUEST

I think that there is no doubt that it does. But I do feel that there is some obscurity about the wording, and as this is a very complicated matter it seems to me that the best course would be to have a discussion, as suggested by my noble friend.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

I shall be delighted to do that. I will withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This wording is no longer necessary. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 104, line 29, leave out lines 29 and 30.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HAWKE

We have amended the contravention clause, Clause 150; therefore we have to amend this clause to conform to it. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 104, line 31, leave out from ("to") to ("and") in line 35 and insert— ("(a) a provision of this Act, of an order made thereunder or of regulations; or (b) a direction, prohibition, restriction or requirement given or imposed by a notice served under or by virtue of this Act by an inspector; or (c) a condition attached to an exemption, consent, approval or authority granted or given under or by virtue of this Act by the Minister or an inspector; a failure to comply with the provision, direction, prohibition, restriction, requirement or condition,").—(Lord Hawke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a drafting Amendment, to remove ambiguity. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 105, leave out lines 6 and 7 and insert ("sole or main purpose of the driving or excavation of which is the getting of minerals or products of minerals").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HAWKE

This is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 105, line 30, leave out from ("lights") to end of line 31 and insert ("means, in relation to a mine or a part of a mine, locked safety-lamps and any other means of lighting the use of which below ground in mines generally, in mines of a class to which that mine belongs or in that mine is authorised by regulations;").—(Lord Hawke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

4.16 p.m.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a drafting Amendment, because this particular wording has been transferred from Clause 66. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 106, line 4, at end insert— ("'safety-lamp mine' means a mine in no part of which below ground is the use of lamps or lights other than permitted lights lawful; 'safety-lamp part of a mine' means a part of a mine other than a safety-lamp mine, being a part below ground in which either the use of lamps or lights other than permitted lights is unlawful or safety-lamps are for the time being in use by way of temporary precaution;").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

VISCOUNT HALL

We are not going to oppose this Amendment, but we are very unhappy about the second part of it. We do not like the words "safety-lamp part of a mine, "and I am sure the National Coal Board and the colliery officials are not very happy about it. There must be few of these mines in existence at the present time, and I say, the fewer the better. I think there is some prospect of this "safety part mines" coming to an end, and I should like to ask the noble Earl whether he can give me an assurance that the provision already made in the Bill to deal with that matter will be strictly carried out. Some of us have had experience in what are called "safety part mines." It is impossible to guarantee safety under such conditions. I well remember an incident when safety-lamps were introduced into one mine which would be regarded as a safety part mine, and very soon (I am not going to apportion blame at all) we had an explosion there and twelve men were killed. That took place close to my home. We feel most strongly about this matter. We should like to see these safety-lamp part mines, not being closed down, but being treated as safety-lamp mines for the rest of their working lives. I should like to hear what the noble Earl has to say in connection with the length of time that these mines are likely to exist.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

I am glad that the noble Viscount has raised that point, as he is in some doubt about it. I think I can say that his views are shared both by the Minister and by the National Coal Board. They would like to see all mixed mines abolished, so that there will be no confusion, and when a man goes down below ground he will know whether he is or is not allowed to carry matches, or whether he should use a safety-lamp or not. That should be clearly laid down. I should like to draw attention to Clause 62 which, in various places, deals particularly with permitted lights. This is entirely new; it is one of the important steps forward. The inspector may grant a licence for a mine to be in part safety-lamp or in part not safety-lamp; but I would draw attention to the proviso at line seven, page 42, which says: Provided that no exemption from the said provisions of a part of a mine of coal shall be granted after the expiration of the period of four years beginning with the commencement of this Act or shall be granted or renewed before the expiration of that period otherwise than so as to expire not later than the expiration of that period. I think that is as definite an answer as anyone can get, because there is no exemption, and I think that after four years they will be finished completely. I imagine that the chief inspector will gradually tighten up his regulations every year, so that by the end there will be no mixed mines at all. We shall all be glad when that happens.

VISCOUNT HALL

I am grateful to the noble Earl for making this matter so clear and so categorical, and I hope that his suggestion will be carried out.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 106, line 10, at end insert ("'statutory responsibilities' means responsibilities under this Act, orders made thereunder and regulations;").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HAWKE

This Amendment is for clarification. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 106, line 21, after ("a") insert ("mine").—(Lord Hawke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR moved to add to subsection (1): 'working place' means in relation to section fifty-one of this Act, the place at which the workman is actually working;".

The noble Lord said: This is rather an important matter to those engaged in the coal industry. We have had it before us many times before and I feel it is as well to have as clear a definition as possible. I need not go far into technicalities, but coal faces can be from 50 to 100 yards long and a man may be working anywhere within that distance. We feel that the actual place at the coal face where he is working is his working place. There have been times when it was considered that the entrance into the face was the working place for everybody on that face. A man may be 50 to 100 yards from the gateway, and supports which he needs may be at the gateway all that distance from him. For that reason we are anxious that the actual place at which he is working on the face shall be legally defined as the working place. I cannot think there can be much objection to this proposal, because, after all, that is where the man is working, and not 50 yards lower down. If he needs supports he must find them, and to go down a considerable distance and back again means loss of time to a man working on piece rates. The miner considers that the time involved should be the responsibility of the colliery management. It is for them to see that he has not to waste time going in search of supports.

This is the last Amendment we have on the Committee stage and it affords an opportunity for me to say how much we admire and appreciate the services rendered by both noble Lords opposite. They have shown wonderful knowledge of a very difficult industry. My noble friend Lord Hall and I have spent many years in the industry and are familiar with every aspect of it, but we find men opposite who do not know the industry to the same extent yet who show remarkable and detailed knowledge. We appreciate very much the way in which they have piloted this Bill through Committee stage in your Lordships' House.

Amendment moved— Page 106, line 25, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)

VISCOUNT HALL

My Lords, may I before the noble Earl speaks, join my noble friend in expressing my thanks to the noble Earl and the noble Lord, Lord Hawke? It is very remarkable that we should get through no fewer than 355 Amendments to this Bill in so short a time. It is only as a result of the understanding and, indeed, the clarity which noble Lords opposite have displayed in dealing with this Bill. I believe it is going to be a monumental Bill. It is 42 years since we last had such a comprehensive Bill dealing with the mining industry. During the whole of that period I have been in almost all the controversies in the industry, and I am absolutely convinced that but for the fact that the industry is controlled and owned as it is at the present time, a Bill of this kind would not have gone through both Houses as easily as it has. I should like to say, both to the National Coal Board and to the officials and workmen, that it is no use legislating unless the provisions of the legislation are acted upon. This Bill when it becomes an Act will throw tremendous responsibility upon everyone connected with the mining industry. In addition, it will cost a tremendous amount of money to put all its provisions into operation. But I am convinced that everyone concerned with the safety of the men engaged in the production of this very valuable commodity will bend their energies to make full use of what I regard as an excellent Bill dealing with mining difficulties.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

May I thank noble Lords opposite most warmly for what they have been kind enough to say, and not only to thank for what they have said but for being so extremely reasonable in helping us. Mining has a language almost all its own, and the fact that we have not been "hauled over the coals" for saying something absolutely appalling is perhaps due to their generosity of spirit rather than to lack of errors on our part. I agree it is to a large extent an opportunity for Parliamentary co-operation and we have much reason to be proud of the way the Bill has passed through Committee stage.

The noble Lord spoke of the implementation of the Bill. I will turn to that, as there are a number of technical clauses. The drafting of the regulations will be a stupendous and heavy task. May I revert to the subject of this particular Amendment? I am glad the noble Lord has raised this point, if he had any anxiety about what was really in the Bill, for we have tried very hard to improve on what I believe were words which gave some difficulty in the 1911 Act. The wording on this particular provision on the supply of props and bars in the 1911 Act is "every working place," and I understand there has been some difficulty about that, so we have gone quite a lot further. I absolutely agree with what the noble Lord says, that it is of the utmost importance to safety that no one should be tempted to go on working at the coal face without putting in supports immediately to give him protection. Anyone who is tempted to do that is tempted to do something dangerous to himself and to his fellows. We consider this to be important. We have said it should be the duty of the manager of every mine to secure that a sufficient supply of suitable material for supports is at all times readily available in his working place to each workman who needs them. The commonsense reading of that provision is that those supports should be at hand, not at the end of a one hundred yards long coal face. Frankly, the Amendment which the noble Lord has put down has not really added much.

The question is, are the words "working place" nearer to our meaning than "the place at which the workman is actually working"? I think we have our meaning perfectly clear and I suggest the remainder is an administrative problem for the manager and his organisation. In Clause 51 there is an immediate sanction at hand; if a workman has not got supports readily available he can retire at once. That, I am sure noble Lords will agree, is the right thing to do. Moreover there can be a prosecution by the inspector, which I hope will not be necessary. I should like the noble Lord before pressing his Amendment to consider whether in this we have not a perfectly clear picture and whether by putting in redundant words, instead of clarifying, you may not tend to obscure. For those reasons, while appreciating the importance of this point I should be grateful if the noble Lord could see his way to withdraw his Amendment.

LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR

What causes us to hesitate were the words of the Minister himself in another place on May 11. I am advised that it can be accepted for the purpose of Clause 51 that "working place" means the place at which workmen actually work. On the other hand there are the words of the Minister when dealing with the definition of "working place" generally in relation to this Bill. He said: "If the honourable gentleman will withdraw his Amendment I will undertake to do that on Report stage." That is the undertaking given by the Minister himself in another place. What we cannot quite understand, and what is troubling some of my friends outside the House, is why he did not carry out so definite a pledge. I do not know whether the noble Earl can help us upon that point.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

I had not looked at that particular reference. I understood that the Minister had said that he would consider this at the Report stage.

LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR

He said: "I will undertake to do that on the Report stage."

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

I understood him to say he would consider that on the Report stage. As I understand it, he has done so and does not think it is possible to put in anything more definite. I ask the noble Lord to reflect whether it is possible to have anything more definite than: readily available for use in his working place to each workman … I think the position is that the Minister does not consider it possible from a statutory point of view to go further than that. After all, this is an administrative problem. It is impossible to administer a mine by Statute. I think the intention is abundantly clear.

LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR

Perhaps the best thing for me to do at the moment is to withdraw my Amendment, it being understood that I may reinsert it at the Report stage. I beg to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD HAWKE

This is another of those Amendments which started with Number 4. They are designed to make it possible to start digging foundations without the presence of a qualified manager. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 106, line 32, leave out lines 32 to 38 and insert— ("(a) the working of a mine shall be deemed to include the operation of driving a shaft or outlet therefor; (b) the working of a quarry shall be deemed to include the operation of removing overburden thereat;").—(Lord Hawke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

Subsection (3) (c) says that a mine is still being worked so long as operations are carried on with a view to abandoning it, but shall not be deemed to be worked because pumping is carried on for the purpose of supplying water to a statutory undertaking. We see no reason for confining the supply of water in this sense to a statutory undertaking. It might be supplied to anyone, but that still would not make it a working pit. I think that is a fair interpretation. Accordingly I beg to move this Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 107, line 1, leave out from ("to") to end of line 4 and insert ("any person").— (The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 107, line 4, at end insert— ("( ) References in this Act to the use of safety-lamps by way of temporary precaution shall, in relation to a mine, be construed as references to the occasional or intermittent use of locked safety-lamps by workmen employed below ground in the mine in a place in which the use of naked lights might be dangerous and, in relation to a part of a mine below ground, be construed as references to the occasional or intermittent use of locked safety-lamps by workmen employed in that part in such a place.")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This Amendment is pure law. It removes any doubt that any other Act referred to means that Act as amended to date. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 107, line 4, at end insert— ("( ) References in this Act to any other enactment shall be construed as references to that enactment as amended, extended or applied by or under any subsequent enactment including, except where the context otherwise requires, this Act").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 177, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 178 agreed to.

Clause 179 [Relationship of Factories Acts and this Act in the case of certain premises]:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 107, line 39, at end insert ("such").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is drafting also. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 108, line 24, after ("factory") insert ("within the meaning of the Factories Acts, 1937 and 1948 ").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 179, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 180 and 181 agreed to.

Clause 182 [Application of Part XIV of this Act to enactments relating to check-weighing and hours of work below ground]:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This Amendment is really pure law, and it picks up certain unrepealed parts of older Acts. All it does is to ensure that the manager, as defined in this Bill, shall include anyone who is an acting or temporary manager, under Clause 107 of the Bill. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 182 end insert the following new clause:

Application of Part XIV of this Act to enactments relating to check weighing and hours of work below ground. .—(1) The provisions of Part XIV of this Act shall have effect as if the provisions of the Coal Mines Regulation Act, 1887, the Coal Mines (Check Weigher) Act, 1894, and the Coal Mines (Weighing of Minerals) Act, 1905 (which relate to check weighing), and of the Coal Mines Regulation Act, 1908 (which relates to hours of work below ground), were included in this Act. (2) Expressions used in the provisions of the said Acts to which meanings are assigned by this Act for the purposes thereof shall have those meanings for the purposes of the said provisions, and a person who is for the time being treated for the purposes of this Act as the manager of a mine shall also be treated for the purposes of the said Act of 1908 as the manager of that mine."—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This new clause gives effect to the minor and consequential Amendments to older Acts made in the new Fourth Schedule, which your Lordships will see at Amendment No. 399. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— After Clause 182, insert the following new clause:

Minor and consequential amendments of other enactments

". The enactments specified in the Schedule to this Act (Minor and Consequential Amendments of Enactments) shall have effect subject to the amendments respectively specified in relation thereto in that Schedule (being minor amendments and amendments consequential on the provisions of this Act)."—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 183 agreed to.

Clause 184 [Power of Minister to provide for continuance of certain regulations and enactments]:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This Amendment is really declaratory, to say that there is no power to make regulations, or, indeed, to re-enact existing regulations, under this clause, except under powers that already exist for making regulations under Clause 140. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 109, line 17, after ("re-enact") insert ("(to the extent to which they could, by virtue of this Act, be enacted in regulations made under section one hundred and forty thereof)").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

The next Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 109, line 19, leave out from ("1911") to ("or") in line 21.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This again is pure law, and I believe that what the subsection says is that exceptions can still be re-enacted although they are exceptions from regulations by requirements which, under this Bill, have been slightly varied from the original text. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 109, line 40, at end insert— ("(3) For the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared that the power conferred by subsection(1) of this section extends, in a case where provision is made by this Act for the granting by regulations of exemptions from an enactment contained therein (being an enactment which re-enacts, with or without modifications, a provision of a regulation having effect by virtue of section eighty-six of the Coal Mines Act, 1911, or of an enactment repealed by the last foregoing section), to the re-enactment, by way of exemption from the first-mentioned enactment (but not to a greater extent than is authorised by this Act), of any exception or exemption subject to which the provision re-enacted had effect,").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 184, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 185 [General Savings]:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

These are all very complicated saving clauses enabling certain specific regulations and orders to be continued in spite of repeals. Paragraph (b) is drafting; paragraph (c) says that notification of accidents shall continue; paragraph (d) saves existing support rules which continue in force. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 109, line 44, leave out paragraphs (b) and (c) and insert— ("(b) any rule made by the Mining Qualifications Board constituted under the Coal Mines Act. 1911; (c) any order with respect to fees, notification of accidents or the manner in which persons are to be searched, being an order made under an enactment repealed by this Act or by the said Act of 1911; (d) any rule made under section fifty of the said Act of 1911; or ").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 110, line5, leave out ("any such enactment") and insert ("an enactment repealed by this Act").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

I think I can move the next five Amendments together, as they are all drafting. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Page 110, line 10, leave out ("the corresponding provision of")

Page 110, line 11, after ("been") insert ("so")

Page 110, line 11, leave out ("under that corresponding provision")

Page 110, line 17, leave out ("the corresponding provision of")

Page 110, line 18, leave out ("made under that corresponding prevision") and insert ("so made").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This Amendment is to ensure that any inquiry under Section 11 of the Coal Mines Act, 1911, into the fitness of any person to hold a certificate of competency, or any formal investigation of an accident, can continue when this Act comes into force and the 1911 Act is repealed. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 110, line 22, at end insert— ("( ) Any inquiry or formal investigation under section eleven or eighty-three of the Coal Mines Act, 1911, which is uncompleted at the commencement of this Act may be carried on and completed in all respects as if this Act had not passed.")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 110, line 23, leave out ("appointed to an office") and insert ("holding office or acting or acting or serving'').—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This Amendment is also drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 110, line 24, leave out ("be deemed to have been appointed to that office") and insert ("continue to hold office or to act or serve as if he had been appointed").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

4.41 p.m.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

The Amendment covers the possibility of an offence continuing at the moment when this Act is repealed. We think it is necessary to put in this subsection on the Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Act. As the noble Viscount, Lord Furness, has withdrawn his Amendment, I will not explain the reason why it is necessary. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 110, line 30, leave out subsection(6) and insert— ("( ) Nothing in this Act shall affect the definition of 'mine' for the purposes of the Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Act, 1928.")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 185, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 186 [Saving for persons managing certain small mines at commencement of this Act]:

LORD HAWKE

This Amendment and the next put right a small defect in the Bill. At present mines of coal, stratified ironstone, shale or fireclay require to have a certificated manager only when they employ more than thirty men underground. In this Bill we introduce another class of mine, that which employs between fourteen and thirty men underground, and the manager of such a mine must have a second-class certificate. This is a new requirement, which means that there are now in existence mines of this size which are being perfectly adequately managed by men who have no certificate. This clause allows these men to go on managing. But a great number of these mines are little affairs which are soon worked out, and it often happens that the labour force and the manager move round the corner somewhere and start up another one. Under the Bill as it stands, a manager would not be allowed to do so. The effect of these two Amendments is that the man who is managing one of these second-class mines, if I may so call them, will be able not only to go on doing that but to go to another second-class mine. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 110, line 44, after ("mine") insert ("of coal, stratified ironstone, shale or fireclay").—(Lord Hawke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HAWKE

This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 111, line 1, after ("may") insert ("be manager of that mine or another mine of coal, stratified ironstone, shale or fireclay").—(Lord Hawke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 111 line 3, leave out ("notice") and insert ("direction").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HAWKE

This Amendment is consequential on Nos. 380 and 381. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 111, line 5, leave out ("be manager of the mine").—(Lord Hawke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 186, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

First Schedule [Public inquiry into accident]:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This Amendment is moved for clarification. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 112, line 11, leave out ("he") and insert ("the Minister").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a new form of summons. I am told that the other form is obsolete. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 112, line 23, leave out paragraphs (b) and (c) and insert— ("(b) by summons signed by the court to require any person to attend, at such time and place as is specified in the summons, to give evidence or produce any documents in his custody or under his control which the court considers it necessary for the purposes of the inquiry to examine").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This, too, is a new approved form of words. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 112, line 35, leave out paragraph (e) and insert— ("( ) to take evidence on oath, and for that purpose to administer oaths, or, instead of administering an oath, to require the person examined to make and subscribe a declaration of the truth of the matter respecting which he is examined").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This paragraph is transferred to Clause 121. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 113, line 28, leave out Paragraph 9.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Second Schedule [Procedure for making regulations]:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 114, line 23, leave out ("may") and insert ("he shall").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This paragraph is transferred from a different place in the Schedule. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 116, line 39, at end insert— ("16. There may be paid by the Minister to the person or persons holding the inquiry such remuneration and allowances as may be fixed by the Lord Chancellor with the approval of the Treasury").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 116, line 43, leave out the last ("or") and insert ("and").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This Amendment is also drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 117, line 5, after the first ("The") insert ("evidence of the"). —(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 117, line 7, leave out ("examined on oath") and insert ("taken on oath, and for that purpose the said person may administer oaths").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This paragraph is transferred to another place in the Schedule. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 117, line 24, leave out Paragraph 21.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Third Schedule [Inquiries into fitness of holders of certificates and delivery up and custody of certificates in connection with prosecutions and inquiries]:

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 118, line 12, leave out second ("or") and insert ("and").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is again the new form of summons. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 118, line 22, leave out paragraphs (b) and (c) and insert— ("(b) by summons signed by the tribunal to require any person to attend, at such time and place as is specified in the summons, to give evidence or to produce any documents in his custody or under his control which the tribunal considers it necessary for the purposes of the inquiry to examine;").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This again is the new form. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 118, line 35, leave out paragraph (e) and insert— ("( ) to take evidence on oath, and for that purpose to administer oaths, or, instead of administering an oath, to require the person examined to make and subscribe a declaration of the truth of the matter respecting which he is examined;").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is another drafting Amendment. I beg to move the Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 118, line 49, after the first ("the") insert ("payment of the").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is like-wise a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 118, line 50, leave out ("party") and insert ("person").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

This is another drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 119, line 38, leave out ("cancel or suspend a certificate they") and insert "cancels or suspends a certificate it").— (The Earl of Selkirk.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Third schedule, as amended, agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELKIN moved, after the Third Schedule, to insert the following new Schedule: