§ 2.41 p.m.
§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly.
§ [THE EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
§ Clause 1.—[General Duties of mine and quarry owners]:
§ THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (THE EARL OF SELKIRK)moved in subsection (1) to insert "statutory" before the word "responsibilities", where that word first occurs. The noble Earl said: In moving this first Amendment, I would offer some explanation or excuse for presenting such a fat budget this afternoon. It might be argued that Her Majesty's Government have been unduly vacillating about this Bill, but such an argument would be entirely wrong. Here we are dealing with a subject of quite unusual complexity and of infinite variety—there are not two pits in the country which are the same. The subject is pervaded through- 604 out with deep human interest and is of first-class importance to this country. For these reasons it was absolutely right that Her Majesty's Government should do everything possible to get as full a measure of agreement as they could, always provided it is in the true interests of the industry. Anyone who has seen the patience and care with which this subject was examined in another place and, in particular, by my right honourable friend, the Minister, will agree that Her Majesty's Government were perfectly right to take immense trouble in doing what they have done. While it is unusual, may I record that on this Bill the draftsmen have done a perfectly stupendous job which I think your Lordships' House would quite rightly wish to recognise.
As my noble friend, Lord Fortescue, has suggested, I can relieve noble Lords to some extent by saying that the Marshalled List of Amendments is not as formidable as at first sight appears. There are a great number of consequential Amendments from another place; there is a certain amount of re-drafting, and a number of technical mistakes have been corrected. Another batch of Amendments will give effect to undertakings which my right honourable friend has given in another place. I may say that in these Amendments every undertaking has been implemented in full measure. There are a few new points, but not very many. Having said that, I will only add that my noble friend Lord Hawke and I will go as fast or as slowly as the Committee may desire. We will try to meet your Lordships' requirements in all respects.
I think that your Lordships will have no difficulty about the first Amendment because it simply expresses more shortly, and, I believe, more clearly what is intended. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 7, after first ("of") insert ("statutory").—(The Earl of Selkirk).
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORIt may be just as well to make the position of the Opposition clear at once. The Opposition are very anxious to see this Bill on the Statute Book, and we shall do everything we can to facilitate its passage. There are a number of Amendments on which noble Lords on this side may possibly feel that 605 they would like to divide the Committee, but they are not many—indeed, I may say that the number is small. The bulk of the Amendments, as the Paymaster General has suggested, relate to matters which have been discussed in another place and they are designed, in the main, simply to carry out pledges. I could, of course, get up when each of these Amendments is moved and express the thanks of noble Lords on this side, but I am going to do it once and for all on this Amendment. I shall not intervene again for this purpose—this is the only vote of thanks that I shall be expressing to-day. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, and also the Minister for the way they have gone into this Bill. I think that few Ministers of the Crown have ever worked harder on a Bill than the Minister and the noble Earl have worked on this Bill. We thank them for all the Amendments now included in the Marshalled List.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThe next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 7, leave out from ("matters'') to ("written") in line 9.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThe next Amendment is consequential also. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 11, leave out ("the owner's") and insert ("those").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendment, agreed to.
§ Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 2 [Appointment and general duties and powers, of mine managers]:
LORD HAWKEOn behalf of my noble friend, Lord Selkirk, I beg to move the next Amendment. There is just a little more in this than in the last three Amendments. We intend that there should be a qualified manager before mining or quarrying operations start, but, as the Bill is drafted at present, operations would be held to start as soon as excavations are made. Now these excavations may be merely for the purpose of laying the foundations of buildings or of roads but those buildings might be held to be part of the mine or quarry. 606 We do not think that a qualified manager is necessary at that stage. We are therefore proposing to amend the Bill here and at various other points and to amend the Definition Clause to be consistent with the view that the working of a mine includes the sinking of a shaft and the working of a quarry the removal of over-burden. The effect of this Amendment will be to make it clear that a qualified manager appears when a shaft is started or when the removal of overburden is begun. We leave Clause 138 unchanged as we think it right that notice should be given at an earlier stage, when excavations for the foundations are started. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 23, leave out from ("worked") to ("unless") in line 24.—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 27, leave out ("following provisions of this Act") and insert ("said provisions ").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ 2.48 p.m.
§
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR moved to add to the clause:
(4) In the appointment of managers for duty in Wales or Monmouth, among candidates equally qualified, persons having a knowledge of the Welsh language shall be preferred.
§ The noble Lord said: Let me at once, in moving this Amendment, express my appreciation of the fact that in Clause 142 of the Bill, dealing with the assignment of inspectors for duty in Wales or Monmouthshire, similar words appear. I appreciate very much the reason of their inclusion, but their appearance in Clause 142 has caused me to think that if there are good reasons why inspectors should be treated in this way then other officials also are entitled to the same consideration. I am satisfied that the reason which impelled the Minister of Fuel and Power to agree to Clause 142 (3) in its application to inspectors applies with equal force to, let us say, such officials as managers, under-managers and deputies.
§ Let me make it quite plain at once that the words "equally qualified" which appear in the Amendment and in 607 Clause 142 are the governing words, and they are words which, so far as I am concerned, no consideration will be allowed to weaken. These officials must be fully qualified. Let there be no doubt about that. But let there be no idea that I am asking for preferential treatment for those who speak Welsh in Wales. I am asking simply that, when there are men who satisfy the technical requirements, then consideration may be given to this aspect of the case. In Wales there are thousands of miners who prefer to speak the Welsh language rather than the English. In North Wales perhaps there is a bigger proportion of Welsh-speaking miners, but North Wales does not comprise a very big proportion of the Welsh coalfield. In West Wales there is a large proportion of Welsh-speaking miners and, as your Lordships know, in West Wales there is going to be one of the biggest developments in mining in this country during the next few years. This will increase the number of miners employed there, and in the main they will be Welsh speaking. If a manager, under-manager or deputy satisfies the requirements of his job and can speak Welsh, that is an additional reason why he should be considered suitable for the job. I happened to spend four years as Regional Controller in North Wales and I met on the ground many Welsh miners who could tell me in Welsh better than they could tell the manager in English about their complaints, and in many cases I acted as their interpreter. The managers in North Wales would be able to tell of that. If the manager had spoken Welsh, that would have established a better atmosphere, and a good atmosphere in the coal field does help to make a good output.
§ I am pleased to see the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor here. For three years he was Minister of Welsh Affairs. Few men have done more to understand the territory for which they were responsible, and I should like to tell him, in case he does not know: that few men have endeared themselves more to Wales than he has done during the past three years. I am satisfied that the noble and learned Viscount could help on this issue. There are in Wales those who clamour for a Parliament for Wales and who say that Wales will never get what she wants and will never be able to safeguard her language, literature and culture 608 until there is a Parliament in Wales. There are those in Wales who do not agree, and who think that Parliament in Westminster can give to Wales all that is required to safeguard her language, literature and culture. Your Lordships' House can help immensely, because your Lordships are interested in language, in literature and in culture. I hope the English-speaking people in Wales will not suggest that the Welsh language is of no value at all. It is not of much value to those who cannot speak it, I agree, but there are in Wales a million people who speak the Welsh language and who want to preserve their literature and culture. I cannot think of a better way of preserving the Welsh language than by seeing that where a man has all the necessary qualifications to do the job in the coal industry and can speak Welsh, he shall be preferred. It is the duty of those of us who feel that Parliament in Westminster can do for Wales all that Wales requires, to do what we can. It is no use opposing a Parliament in Wales without showing that Parliament in Westminster can do as much, and even more, for Wales than a Parliament in Wales would be able to do. I hope that your Lordships will accept this Amendment, which I bee to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 3, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ 2.53 p.m.
LORD RAGLANIf the noble Earl accepts this Amendment, I hope he will exclude Monmouthshire. I do not wish to decry the value of the Welsh language, but it is not spoken in Monmouthshire. The noble Lord opposite goes to Monmouthshire often, and he knows very well that it is not the language of the county. According to the last census, 6 per cent. of the people of Monmouthshire termed themselves as able to speak Welsh. Therefore, if this requirement were accepted, 94 per cent. of the inhabitants of Monmouthshire would be at a disadvantage in their own county through not knowing a foreign language.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMay I say that the noble Lord, Lord Raglan, and I have differed before on this question of Welsh in Monmouthshire. Some of the best meetings of Welsh people that I have addressed have been in Monmouthshire.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORIn Welsh, and my speeches were thoroughly enjoyed. They received greater cheers than in any other part of Wales. I agree that Monmouthshire is the most English county included in Wales, but I cannot see that this Amendment, asking that consideration should be given to the fact that whether a manager who is fully qualified to do his job, can speak Welsh—
LORD RAGLANThe point is that consideration would be given to men from outside Monmouthshire. Where there are two men with equal qualifications, one a Monmouthshire man and the other a Welshman, the Welshman would be given preference over the Monmouthshire man; and in my judgment that would be very unfair to Monmouthshire.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKMay I presume that the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, is not intending to make any present complaint?
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKI am pleased to hear it. Then I will deal with the question as a theoretical point. May I say straight away that I have the strongest possible sympathy with what the noble Lord said, for the reason that we are living in days when the centralising influence is very strong and I feel that any way in which we can establish or maintain local traditions, such as the Welsh language, is entirely to the good. If I may say so as a Scotsman, I rather envy Wales the degree in which she has retained her language. Gaelic is rapidly decreasing in Scotland. But the National Coal Board is one organisation and it is essential that the best men should be appointed at all mines. As the noble Lord is aware, according to the agreement between the British Association of Colliery Management and the National Coal Board, appointments must be advertised over the whole country. I do not want to suggest that it would be possible, as the result of this Amendment, for every post in England and Scotland to be open to Welshmen but no post in Wales to be 610 open to an Englishman or a Scotsman—I am not suggesting that that is the noble Lord's purpose—but I think we have to watch that point. That would not be to the advantage of Wales. I am sure the noble Lord will agree that for the development of mining there must be a certain exchange of knowledge so that the best practice should be known.
The position with regard to inspectors is rather different. I think that this is a legacy of Lloyd George's 1911 Act. Of course, the inspector is appointed as a member of the staff of the Ministry and then is posted to Wales or elsewhere as the case may be. Here we are making a more or less now appointment and I think the position is not entirely comparable. What I find difficult about the noble Lord's words is that he compares a perfectly specific thing—Welsh speaking—with a quality that is quite indefinite—equal qualifications. In fact, no two men are equally qualified; everybody is slightly different. As the Amendment is worded, I feel that the emphasis on Welsh is too heavy.
I would also remind the noble Lord that behind his Amendment there is a criminal sanction. I think we want to be careful in imposing this condition when there is a criminal sanction behind it. However, I cannot believe that any body appointing men to Wales would not give consideration to this point. I cannot speak for the National Coal Board, but I think it is very improbable that they would not do so. If I may, I should like to discuss this point with the noble Lord, and with the noble Lord, Lord Raglan, to see whether we cannot find words to meet his point without imposing an undue burden on the National Coal Board and other bodies dealing with this matter. I think it would be better if this could be dealt with in one clause and not in three or four places, because technicians and all kinds of people are concerned. If the noble Lord would withdraw his Amendment, I should be grateful.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORI beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
611§ Clause 3 [Rights of mine manager with respect to instructions given by or on behalf of owner]:
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThis Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 6, leave out from ("of") to ("shall") in line 8 and insert ("statutory responsibilities of his").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HAWKEThis Amendment is little more than drafting. This clause gives a manager power to decline to obey orders if he thinks the safety or health of the men employed could be prejudiced. The Amendment makes it clear that he can decline to obey an order if the safety or health of any one of them is prejudiced. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 35, after ("mine") insert ("(or any of them)").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ 3.0 p.m.
§
THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved to add to the clause:
(4) Where, in the case of such a mine as is mentioned in the last foregoing subsection, instructions are given and confirmed as therein mentioned, the document by which they are confirmed shall be preserved by the manager of the mine, and a copy of that document shall be preserved by the owner of the mine, in each case for twelve months after the instructions cease to be operative.
The noble Earl said: This Amendment is moved to implement an undertaking given by my right honourable friend to ensure that there are special instructions issued under Clause 3, under which the manager is entitled to ask that confirmation of instructions issued to him shall be retained both by the manager and by the owner for a period of twelve months. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 48, at end insert the said sub-section.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ VISCOUNT HALL moved, as an Amendment to the Amendment, to leave out "twelve months" and insert "three years." The noble Viscount said: May I at the outset say that we welcome the Amendment but we feel that it can be improved. Therefore, I beg to move the Amendment to the Amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friend 612 Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor. What we have in mind is the preservation of the documents which may be material in claims for damages, where the period allowed for starting proceedings is three years. Some of these claims are not submitted until that period. What we are concerned with is that there should be no risk of any such documents not being made available to the court to assist them in coming to a decision. We believe this Amendment to the Amendment to be reasonable, and I hope that the Government will accept it. I beg to move.
§
Amendment to Amendment moved—
Line 6, of the Amendment, leave out ("twelve months") and insert ("three years").—(Viscount Hall.)
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThe document has to be preserved for twelve months after it ceases to be operative. I wonder whether there is much case for keeping it any considerable period longer than that. When we originally drafted the Bill, we did not think it necessary to put it in at all. The position is that the manager gets an instruction from a person who is not authorised, or perhaps not qualified. He is entitled under Clause 3 to say that he wants that instruction in writing, and he wants it from someone who is qualified and authorised to give it—it may be an electrician, who is not a mining engineer, or anybody else giving him an instruction. We thought that in his own interests he would keep the document as long as it was of any use to him, and I still feel that he will probably do so. We have now added "twelve months" as the period for which he must keep it. Is it likely that something will arise twelve months after it ceases to be operative, of which there was no indication before?
§ VISCOUNT HALLIt might well do.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKEven if it does, the plaintiff in the case is entirely unpenalised, because this does not in any way remove the liability of somebody—it may be the owner, it may be the agent, or it may even be the manager. This protects the manager, but it does not in any way undermine the case of the injured man, or whoever it may be, who is bringing an action against him. So 613 far as I can see, his position remains unaltered.
§ VISCOUNT HALLI should like to ask the noble Earl whether he does not consider that if documents are destroyed before the end of this period important evidence will he destroyed; and whether that will not place the claimant, whoever he might be, at a disadvantage; whereas under the Conditions of Action Provisions a case for damages can be taken within a period of three years. We feel that there is no hardship in requiring that these documents be retained for the longer period of three years. I am not a lawyer, and far be it from me to suggest that there might or might not be difficulties. However, we feel it is essential that documents should be retained for a period of at least three years.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKI am not going to press this point unduly, if the noble Viscount feels it is of great importance. There will be few of these documents; in fact, I think it is unlikely that there will be any. I would remind the noble Viscount that if the manager should lose the document, he is criminally liable.
§ VISCOUNT HALLWithin that period.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKWithin the three years. It is making it a criminal offence on the part of the manager to lose a document which is really only of interest to himself.
§ VISCOUNT HALLWould not the same thing apply in the case of twelve months?
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKYes. But you are extending it to three years, which means that the document must be kept for that period. However, if the noble Viscount feels strongly about it—I do not think anybody bringing an action would be at a disadvantage—I will certainly look at it again.
§ VISCOUNT HALLI am obliged to the noble Earl. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment to the Amendment.
§ Amendment to Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
614§ Clause 4 [Qualifications of mine managers]:
§
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 17, leave out ("and").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HAWKEThis Amendment is a clarification. Throughout the Bill we are amending it to say that a "direction" is in force rather than a "notice" is in force. We feel that it is better English. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 19, leave out from the beginning to ("that") in line 20 and insert ("direction, given by an inspector by notice served on the owner of the mine,").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 32, leave out ("notice") and insert ("direction").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 5 [Limitation on number of mines which a person may manage]:
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThis is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 7, leave, out from ("of") to ("is") in line 8 and insert ("statutory responsibilities of his").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThis, too, is drafting. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 9, leave out ("upon") and insert ("on").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 6 [Under-managers]:
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 24, leave out from ("a") to end of line 29, and insert ("direction, given by an inspector by notice served on the owner of the mine, that, on the ground of the size or condition of the mine or the system of working it being such as, in the opinion of the inspector, to render it inexpedient that it
615
should be worked unless there is at least one under-manager, this paragraph shall apply to the mine;").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 8, after ("manager") insert ("thereof").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORIn view of the undertaking given on Amendment 6, I shall not move the next Amendment.
§ Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 7 [Temporary appointments during vacancy in office of mine manager or under-manager]:
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 23, leave out from ("worked") to ("at") in line 24.—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 30, after ("time") insert ("is or").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
§ 3.10 p.m.
§ Clause 8 [Daily supervision by mine managers and under-managers]:
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 17, after ("who") insert ("is or").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 34, after ("either") insert ("is or").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
616§ Clause 9 [Charge of mine where neither manager nor acting manager nor under-manager is present]:
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 8, leave out ("of this Act").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 10 [Duties of mine managers with respect to reading of reports, &c.]:
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThis Amendment is a little more than drafting: it is really a paving Amendment to lead to a certain action which has been raised. Some documents and books have to be kept in the office of a mine, but in certain cases, particularly in regard to small mines and quarries, there is no suitable accommodation at the mine to do it. Accordingly, we are leading up to Clause 132, where we are going to say that they may be kept in such places provided by the owner as the inspector may approve. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 18, leave out ("kept at") and insert ("provided for that purpose by the owner of").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 11 agreed to.
§ Clause 12 [Deputies]:
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThis is really a paving Amendment to Amendment No. 27. It is moved to implement an undertaking given by my right honourable friend in another place in which he makes it quite clear that in regulations of duties of deputies, preference will be given to matters of safety and health over other duties. There is quite a lot of history behind that, but I will not bore your Lordships with it to-day. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 36, leave out ("section") and insert ("subsection").—(The Earl of Selkirk).
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKI have already spoken about this Amendment. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 9, line 39, at end insert—
("(2) Regulations having effect by virtue of the foregoing subsection shall be so framed as, in the opinion of the Minister, to secure that, in the discharge, by persons appointed for the purpose of fulfilling in relation to a mine requirements imposed by virtue of paragraph (a) of that subsection, of duties prescribed by virtue of the other provisions of that subsection, those persons shall give preference to the securing of the safety and health of the workmen employed at the mine over the securing of any other matter.")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 13 agreed to.
§ Clause 14:
§ Duties of persons appointed by mine managers
§ 14. It shall be the duty of the manager of every mine to ensure to the best of his ability that every person appointed by him in pursuance of the foregoing provisions of this Act, or regulations having effect by virtue of any such provisions understands the nature and scope of any duties which fall to be performed by that person, being either duties imposed by or by virtue of this Act or duties whose performance is undertaken for the purpose of attaining any of the objects mentioned in paragraphs (a) to (c) of subsection (1) of the last foregoing section.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORI am under the impression that in connection with this matter there may have been an oversight. An undertaking was given in another place, on this very matter-the noble Earl will find it in column 267 of the Official Report of the Standing Committee on March 4. The Parliamentary Secretary was asked:
Will the Parliamentary Secretary, between now and Report, have a look at the particular words which specified before that this had to be done in writing, and take that into account?Mr. Lloyd replied:Yes, certainly.The purpose of the Amendment is to lessen the ambiguity. We think that the less ambiguity the better. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 19, after ("mine") insert ("by notice, written instructions and otherwise").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKI am not quite clear what the noble Lord seeks here. This clause imposes a duty on the manager to ensure that, to the best of his 618 ability, all those persons employed by him understand their duty. The noble Lord says that he should do so "by notice, written instructions or otherwise."
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR"And," not "or."
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThat means to say that the noble Lord wishes the instructions to be in writing?
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKI beg the noble Lord's pardon. I did not know quite how else the manager would do it. I do not think this Amendment is very practical. Does the noble Lord really think that, to understand his job, a man has to receive everything in writing? Does he really think that that is the best way to run underground work? Would not the diagrammatic description be better, or would it not be better to explain verbally what is required? I should hesitate to say that every man must have his duties explained in writing. I should have doubted whether many people wanted that.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMay I suggest that the noble Earl should look at the point again? I am speaking from experience. When a colliery official gives me an instruction, I understand it in a certain way and I carry it out in the way I understand it. He tells me later that I misunderstood and he did not intend me to do that. I want to avoid any misunderstanding, and if it is in writing it is difficult to misunderstand it.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKI will certainly have a look at the point. It strikes me as being an awful lot of writing, but I will certainly have a look at it.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORI beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 22, leave out ("such") and insert ("of those").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
619§ Clause 15 [Notification to district inspector of appointments by mine owners]:
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThis Amendment is to enable the Minister to get particulars of qualifications when men are appointed to mines. This really applies to places where a statutory qualification is not required. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 42, leave out from the beginning to ("qualifications") in line 44 and insert ("and giving such particulars with respect to his").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 16 [Disqualification of contractors and their employees for appointment as managers, &c., of mines]:
§
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 2, leave out ("or for the purpose of opening a mine").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThis Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 12, after the first ("of") insert ("subsection (1) of").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 17 [Keeping of plans]:
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThis is really the same as the Amendment I moved to Clause 10 in regard to plans. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 16, leave out from ("that") to end of line 19, and insert (",in the case of every mine, the manager thereof shall keep at the office at the mine or at such other place as may be approved by an inspector").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, I do not know whether I might presume to ask that your Lordships consider Clauses 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21 together. These all deal with plans—the making of plans, the manner in which information for plans 620 is obtained, the preservation of plans and geographical maps. The Amendments to all these clauses are purely drafting or, in some cases, make technical corrections. Perhaps I may give one example of the sort of technical correction. The Bill, as it stands, says that when a mine is not in operation for twelve months the plans kept by the manager are to be deposited with the Minister. But if the mine is not in operation for twelve months there may not be a manager, and then it is obviously necessary that the owner should deposit them. I do not think there is anything in the Amendments to which exception is likely to be taken, and I should like, with your Lordships' permission, to move the Amendments to Clauses 17 to 21 together.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 11, line 28, leave out ("them") and insert ("those workings")
§ Page 11, line 37, leave out ("and") and insert ("or")
§ Page 11, line 39, leave out the first ("the")
§ Page 12, line 3, leave out the second ("the")
§ Page 12, line 4, leave out ("of the workings")
§ Page 12, line 5, after ("surface") insert ("of the workings delineated on the plans")
§ Page 12, line 10, after ("If") insert (",in the case of any mine,")
§ Page 12, line 13, leave out ("a") and insert("the")
§ Page 12, line 14, leave out ("upon") and insert ("on")
§ Page 12, line 15, after ("mine") insert ("or at such other place as may be approved by an inspector")
§ Page 12, line 21, leave out ("by the manager") and insert ("in the case")
§ Page 12, line 37, leave out ("by the manager") and insert ("in the case")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 18 [Furnishing of documents and information requisite for preparation of plans]:
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 12, line 47, leave out ("by the manager") and insert ("in the case")
§ Page 13, line 7, leave out ("in writing")
§ Page 13, line 19, leave out ("by the manager") and insert ("in the case").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
621§ Clause 19 [Faulty plans]:
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 13, line 20, after ("if") insert (",in the case of any mine.")
§ Page 13, line 23, leave out ("required to be")
§ Page 13, line 23, leave out ("a") and insert ("that")
§
Page 13, line 28, leave out subsections (2) to (4) and insert—
("(2) The following provisions shall have effect where a surveyor is appointed under the foregoing subsection to make a new plan, section or drawing in the case of a mine:—
§ (The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 20 [Transmission to inspector, and preservation, of plans of abandoned mines, seams and veins]:
§ Amendment moved—
§ Leave out Clause 20 and insert the following new clause:
§ Transmission to inspector, and preservation, of plans of abandoned or disused mines, seams and veins
§ ("20.—(1) Provision may be made by regulations—
- (a) for requiring that—
- (i) in the event of the abandonment of a mine or of the expiration of the period of twelve months from the time at which a mine was last worked for the purpose of getting minerals or products of minerals, the person who is the owner of the mine at the time of the happening of that event shall, within the prescribed period thereafter, send to the inspector for the district such plans of the workings in the mine at that time (being plans complying with such requirements as are imposed by or by virtue of the next following subsection) and such drawings supplementary to the plans as may be prescribed and such sections of the seams or veins worked in the mine and of the strata overlying them (being sections complying with such requirements as aforesaid) as may be prescribed;
- (ii) in the event of the abandonment of a seam or vein in a mine or the expiration of the period of twelve months from
622 the time at which a seam or vein in a mine was last worked for the purpose of getting minerals or products of minerals, the person who is the owner of the mine at the time of the happening of the that event shall, within the prescribed period thereafter, send to the inspector for the district such plans of the workings in that seam or vein at that time (being plans complying with such requirements as are imposed by or by virtue of the next following subsection) and such drawings supplementary to the plans as may be prescribed and such sections of that seam or vein and of the strata overlying it (being sections complying with such requirements as aforesaid) as may be prescribed; - (b) for imposing, with respect to plans, drawings and sections sent to an inspector in pursuance of such provisions of the regulations as have effect by virtue of the foregoing paragraph, such requirements (whether with respect to the persons by whom they are to be prepared, the giving of certificates with respect thereto or otherwise) as it may appear to the Minister requisite or expedient to impose for the purpose of ensuring the accuracy thereof.
§ (2) Plans and sections required, by virtue of provisions of regulations having effect by virtue of the foregoing subsection, to be sent to an inspector shall be of durable material and be prepared in such form and manner as may be specified by rules made by the Minister and on a scale not less than such as may be so specified, and any such plans shall show the position, in relation to objects on the surface, of the workings delineated on the plans and record such information as may be so specified with respect to orientation, contours, boundaries, faults, workings other than those delineated on the plans and such other matters (whether similar to the matters aforesaid or not) as may be so specified.
§ (3) If the Minister is satisfied, on the representation of an inspector,
- (a) that these has occurred, in the case of a mine, a contravention of provisions of regulations having effect by virtue of subparagraph (i) or (ii) of paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of this section consisting of a failure to send a plan, drawing or section to an inspector within the period limited by those provisions or that, in the case of a mine, a plan, drawing or section sent to an inspector in pursuance of those provisions is inaccurate, incomplete, dilapidated or wholly or partly indecipherable; and
- (b) that, in the interests of safety, it is desirable for a new plan, drawing or section to be made;
§ (4) Subject to the provisions of the next following subsection, plans, drawings and sections sent to an inspector in pursuance of the said provisions or made by a surveyor appointed under the foregoing subsection shall be preserved by the Minister or by some other person under arrangements made or approved by the Minister.
§ (5) Where, at the time at which the working of a mine or a seam or vein therein is resumed, any plans, drawings or sections relating thereto are, by virtue of the last foregoing subsection, preserved by the Minister or by some other person (not being the owner of the mine), the owner shall, on giving not less than fourteen days notice to the person by whom the plans, drawings or sections are preserved and (where that person is not the Minister) to the Minister, be entitled to have delivered to him the plans, drawings or sections subject to affording to the Minister, if required so to do before the expiration of the notice, a reasonable opportunity of making copies of the plans, drawings or sections or of such part thereof as the Minister thinks fit.")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 21 [Geological map]:
§
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 23, after ("mine") insert ("or at such other place as may be approved by an inspector").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 22 [Provision of shafts and outlets in coal, etc., mines]:
LORD HAWKEMy Lords, we now come to the clause which deals with the employment of persons below ground, saying that there must be two shafts separated by a specific distance, 45 feet, or 10 feet, in the case of mines sunk before 1888. But there are two mines in County Durham where the distance is still less. They are nearly worked out. This Amendment proposes to amend the Bill to allow them to continue until they are worked out.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 34, after ("which") insert (", except where they were sunk before the first day of January, eighteen hundred and sixty-five,").—(Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
624§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 15, line 35, leave out ("in the case of shafts the sinking of which") and insert ("where the sinking thereof")
§ Page 15, line 42, leave out ("in consequence") and insert ("as a result")
§ Page 16, line 39, leave out ("may")
§ Page 16, line 40, at end insert ("may").— (Lord Hawke.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThis Amendment also is not much more than drafting. It is to say that exemptions are directed to the employment of persons rather than to the mine.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 41, leave out from ("mine") to end of line 46 and insert ("exempt from the operation of subsection (1) of this section the employment of persons below ground in the mine or in such part of the mine below ground as may be specified in the notice:
Provided that no exemption shall be granted under this subsection by the Minister or an inspector unless the Minister or the inspector, as the case may be, is satisfied that no persons employed in the mine will be exposed to undue risk in consequence of the granting of the exemption.")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKThe next two Amendments are drafting.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 17, line 20, after ("affording") insert ("to")
§ Page 17, line 22, leave out from ("him") to end of line 25 and insert—
§ ("(7) In the application of this section to Scotland, for references to a plaintiff and a defendant there shall respectively be substituted references to a pursuer and a defender.
§ (8) Nothing in this section shall apply to the employment of persons in a shaft or outlet or in the insets of a shaft or outlet.")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERWould your Lordships permit me to move that the House do now resume, in order that I may make a statement on the Dock Strike.
§ Moved, That the House do now resume.—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to, and House resumed accordingly.