COMMONS AMENDMENT (Hansard, 22 November 1954)

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, this is rather a long Amendment. I must confess that I do not think it adds very much, but it does two quite small things. First of all, where a public analyst decides that he is unable to perform an effective analysis, because of lack of equipment or something of that kind, he may send the sample to the public analyst in some other area for analysis without referring to the food and drugs authority. That power was left somewhat in the air by the previous version of the Bill. The second thing the Amendment does is to provide that a person from whom a sample has been procured may obtain a copy of the public analyst's certificate for Is. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.

§ LORD OGMORE
My Lords, although the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, has said that the provisions of this Amendment do not amount to very much, one of them—that is, subsection (6)—seems to have aroused the concern of the County Councils Association. They have asked me to place before your Lordships their views on this particular point. Your Lordships may be aware that at the Committee stage in another place an Amendment was moved to add a new subsection that, where any sample of milk is taken by a sampling officer he shall, immediately it becomes possible to do so, notify the person to whom he gives a part of the sample of the contents of the certificate of the public analyst. The reason for this Amendment was that the present system of milk production by machinery was complicated, and there were many possibilities of adulteration—for example, from the rubber tubes or steel pipes of the milking machines, all of which could affect the purity of the milk. It was argued that the farmer should be given information of the degree to which his milk had failed to pass a test so that he could put the matter right. The Government moved the new Amendment which is the subject of our consideration and which not merely accepts the principle I have enunciated relating to milk but 1729 extends it to all food samples. No consultation, I understand, took place on this Amendment with the County Councils Association, the Association of Municipal Corporations or the Society of Public Analysts.
The County Councils Association feel that, for a variety of reasons, this is not a good Amendment, so far as articles of food and drink other than milk are concerned. I need not go into all the detailed points at this stage of the Bill, but they think that there are a number of difficulties of a practical nature—for example, the fact that a large number of articles of food are packed by manufacturers and arrive at retailers pre-packed and ready for sale. At the present stage, I understand that quite a number of tests are made on an informal basis: they are simply taken in the retailer's shop. The test does not really concern him so much as it does the manufacturer, and therefore it is done on art informal basis, whereas if this particular Amendment is accepted the sampling will have to be of a formal nature. The various authorities will have to keep a large number of records, and the whole matter will be complicated and will become formal, official and expensive. In short, that is what the County Councils Association say. I feel it is only right that their objection to this particular subsection should be put before your Lordships so that we may have the reply of the Government to it.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, perhaps I may first say that if there was no consultation with these Associations—and I did not know that—I am sure that my right honourable friend the Minister of Food would very much regret it. No doubt, that was due to circumstances over which he had no control. But, on the larger issue that the noble Lord has raised, I gained the impression that he was not entirely convinced of the case he was making; and he did not make much of a case. After all, what he is objecting to is simply that a trader who has had a sample taken from him should be allowed, on payment of 1s., to get a copy of the certificate of the public analyst. I should have thought it would be fair that the trader who has had this sample removed from him should at least be allowed to know the public analyst's opinion of the particular commodity 1730 which he is selling. I cannot see that it in any way reflects on the public analyst, or, indeed, makes his job any the more difficult; and it seems perfectly right that the trader should have this kind of protection. I hope that your Lordships will agree to this Amendment.