§ 2.35 p.m.
§ Viscount ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the injustice operating against the farmers producing cream under the terms of the scheme inaugurated by the Ministry of Food; whether under that scheme farmers are denied the equivalent of the rebate granted to large producers on the price of milk sold for the production of cream, unless such farmers are dealing with not less than 200 gallons of milk for cream daily and handling not less than a total of 500 gallons of milk daily; and what steps Her Majesty's Government propose to take to put such farmers upon a basis of equality with these large concerns in the production and sale of cream.]
§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD CARRINGTON)My Lords, during the six weeks before April 1, 1954, the Ministry of Food, in consultation with the Milk Marketing Board, operated on a short-term basis a system of rebates on milk sold for the manufacture of cream. This system was similar to the one used by the Board before the war. Since its powers were restored on April 1, the Board has operated a scheme for rebates on milk sold by it for cream manufacture, broadly as described by the noble Viscount. I understand that as a result of representations at its annual general meeting, the Board has again given most careful consideration to the possibility of providing rebates for farmers manufacturing cream and has decided that it is impracticable to do so.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHIs the Parliamentary Secretary aware of this fact? I went with one of my neighbours, a farmer, to the annual meeting of the Milk Marketing Board—I went there to help him; I myself do not produce cream. I asked whether the Milk Marketing Board was consulted by the Ministry of Food with regard to this scheme. The answer of the chairman of the Board to me was that it was informed but not consulted. Therefore, I am a little anxious about the phrase in the Parliamentary Secretary's Answer on that point. I may come back to that in a moment.
§ LORD CARRINGTONI have most carefully checked that point, and I am informed that, there was consultation between the Milk Marketing Board and the Ministry of Food.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMay I ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he is aware of the great unfairness of this decision to individual farmers, who came into the cream business as long as two years ago, as soon as they were able to do so, and who have now been placed in a position in which it is impossible for them to compete? The fact that a rebate is being given to the largest distributors of cream in the country, virtually creates a small group of large people with a monopoly, and interferes with the individual rights of the farmer.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, of course we all have great sympathy with the difficulties in which these small cream producers find themselves; but the reason why the Milk Marketing Board does not find it possible to give this rebate is primarily because of the administrative difficulties which would result. It would be almost impossible in these cases to check the amount of cream which was sold and also the amount of milk which was used by these small men, because there is no way of doing it, and even if it were possible it would entail an enormous staff.
There is, of course, another point which I think one ought to bear in mind when one considers this matter—namely, that if it did what the noble Viscount is suggesting, the Milk Marketing Board would be granting a rebate on milk which, in point of fact, it had never bought and 827 which the owner had never sold as milk; and in effect the result would be that the producers would be asking for a special subsidy to be paid to them in respect of milk which they had kept back for their own purposes, although the 1947 Act does no more than guarantee a price for milk sold off the farm. Bearing in mind both the administrative difficulties and what I have just said, the Milk Marketing Board has come to the conclusion that, much as it would like to, it finds that it cannot help.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, may I ask whether or not it is a fact that these milk producers for cream manufacture are perfectly willing to devote the whole of their milk off their farms for this purpose; that it would therefore be perfectly easy to give them the rebate, since they also are subject to milk recording and cannot "fiddle about" with the figures? They are quite prepared to give proper commercial invoices and to have their accounts audited by a chartered accountant. What difficulty really exists in such circumstances? Would the noble Lord also bear in mind that, whereas 60,000 gallons of skimmed milk at a time are being poured down a coal mine because it cannot be distributed, every one of these farmers has a market in the neighbourhood for his skim?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, all these things have been borne in mind, but what the noble Viscount has said does not alter the fact that the administrative difficulties of granting a rebate to the cream producer are such that the Milk Marketing Board cannot at the moment see any way over them.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHI propose to raise this matter at greater length on another occasion.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, whether he is aware of the inconvenience which is caused to consumers by this monopolistic arrangement, and that in many areas of the country it is now extremely difficult for a consumer adjacent to a farm to get any fresh milk at all?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I do not think that that has much to do 828 with the subject; but, with great respect to the noble Lord, I think he is quite wrong. I do not think anybody has the slightest difficulty in getting fresh milk when he wants it.
§ EARL JOWITTMy Lords, I may be wrong, but I think it is a fact that no one can like a scheme whereby a rebate is granted to the big man and not to the little man—I am sure that the Parliamentary Secretary as much as any of us would dislike that. I would suggest that he devotes his great talents, and those of his Ministry, to trying to find some way out of these administrative difficulties. "Where there's a will," there is very often a way.
§ LORD CARRINGTONOf course, everybody would pay great attention to what is said by the noble and learned Earl, but I would point out that this is the responsibility of the Milk Marketing Board, which is itself a producer-controlled Board. It is run by the producers, and all these cream producers are themselves registered with the Milk Marketing Board. They have their own remedies under the Agricultural Marketing. Acts.