NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL (Hansard, 22 December 1954)

§ THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (THE EARL OF SELKIRK)
My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time.

§ EARL JOWITT
My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Pethick-Lawrence indicated on the Second Reading stage, and as your Lordships will observe, we are not going to take any part whatever in resisting this Bill—and for two simple reasons. First, it is a Bill which, as the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, said, though not a certified Bill, deals primarily with money matters, and is therefore peculiarly a Bill which, under the modern convention, should be left to another place for its main discussion. Secondly, although we may all think, perhaps, that in this, that or the other respect the Bill is not quite all that we should have liked, yet no sensible person can doubt that the Bill does make a very great improvement in the existing conditions. That being so, we are most anxious to see it passed into law at the earliest possible moment. It is for that reason that we are taking the course we are taking.
At the same time I should like to say this. I hope that the Government will not regard this as by any means a final settlement of this matter. In the nature of things, they had to produce this Bill before they had had the advantage of reading the Phillips Report, because the Bill either came out contemporaneously with, or, I think, just before, the Phillips Report was issued. It is, therefore, inevitably, in the nature of an interim Bill, in the sense that the Report of the Committee to whom we are so greatly indebted, which was presided over by a very wise civil servant, was not available at the time the Bill was first introduced. Now that we have seen the Phillips Report we know that there is, clearly, a great deal in it which needs and merits consideration—which I have no doubt the Government will give it. I only hope that the fact that we are passing this Bill now—and, as I say, the Bill was prepared before the recommendations of the Phillips Report were known—will not in any sense preclude us from coming back to this subject again, and that the Government will not regard this (I do not think they will) as in any way a matter which has been settled and decided once and for all. It is in that spirit and in that hope that we are glad to co-operate with the Government in seeing this Bill through to the Statute Book, since it plainly makes a substantial improvement 651 to the existing position. I am glad to see that the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, has a Motion on the Order Paper to discuss the recommendations of the Phillips Report. Even without being spurred on by Lord Beveridge, I hope that the Government will lose no opportunity of considering the implications of that Report, and I trust that, as a result of that consideration, further legislation will be introduced in the near future.

§ THE EARL OF SELKIRK
My Lords, I should like to thank the noble and learned Earl for what he has said, and for offering no objection to what I must admit is rather fast Parliamentary procedure. I am grateful to the noble and learned Earl, and to the other noble Lords with him, for the line which they have taken. I should say of this Bill that it is only a very simple one: it in no way alters the structure; it is merely a changing of rates. The Phillips Report was seen by the Minister before the Bill was published, in order to make quite certain that there was nothing in it that might be directly contrary to what he was doing; but I entirely agree that the Phillips Report was not considered in the sense of our incorporating in this Bill anything at all to which it made reference.
I could not agree more with the noble and learned Earl that this is a matter which must be thoroughly considered. I do not think anyone would accuse me of underestimating the nature of the problem of providing for our aged. In moving the Second Reading of the Bill, I put the case frankly and openly, and demonstrated beyond peradventure, I think, that we shall need constantly to have this subject under review. There will be an opportunity of examining the Phillips Report in the not distant future, but I can say that I am quite certain that for some years to come we shall have to reconsider the whole manner in which benefits have to be paid. I readily accept what the noble and learned Earl has said, and I thank your Lordships.

§ LORD KERSHAW
My Lords, I understand that the Phillips Committee were mainly, if not wholly, concerned with old age pensions. We also have the Government Actuary's First Quinquennial 652 Report on the whole scheme, which deals not only with old age pensions but with other benefits as well. I think that the question of old age pensions covered by this Bill should be considered, in due course, in relation to the Government Actuary's Quinquennial Report. I hope that when this matter does come up again we may have an opportunity of discussing the Government Actuary's Report as well as the Phillips Report.

§ THE EARL OF SELKIRK
My Lords, with the permission of the House, may I say that these Reports deal with two different subjects? The Motion by Lord Beveridge is particularly concerned with the Phillips Report, which deals with the economic problems of provision for old age. The noble Lord is raising the question of the Quinquennial Reports, which of course deals with a much wider subject, including questions of industrial injuries and all the other benefits. I would suggest that he might like to put down a Motion on the Order Paper to have this question discussed separately.