Lords Sitting of 22 December 1954

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  V.H.F. BROADCASTING STATIONS
  11.5 a.m.
  LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which sands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government whether authority has yet been given for the extension of the B.B.C.'s V.H.F. plan to include Wenvoe.]
  THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (EARL DE LA WARR): My Lords, I have now had the views of the Television Advisory Committee on the B.B.C.'s long-term plans for V.H.F. development. They recommend the adoption of the plan, and I have agreed with the B.B.C. that Wenvoe should be added to the first batch of stations about which I told the House on July 21. This first stage will involve a large amount of work between now and the end of 1956, and the timetable for future developments will be settled later.
  LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am sure the Welsh people will be very grateful to the noble Earl and to the B.B.C. for this news. May I ask the noble Earl whether the whole of Wales will benefit from the development of V.H.F. broadcasting and, if not, what part will benefit?
  EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, naturally I hope that the whole of Wales will eventually benefit, but under this scheme it is expected that the people in West and South Wales will be able to receive these broadcasts by the end of 1956, and of course the needs of North Wales will be borne in mind in the next stage of development of V.H.F.
  LORD CALVERLEY: Could the noble Earl give me any information when this boon will be extended to Lancashire—and, of course, Yorkshire?
  LORD REA: And to Cumberland and Westmorland?
  EARL DE LA WARR: I have now approved ten V.H.F. stations. There is a long list, and I regret that I cannot say exactly what arrangements apply, but I believe noble Lords will find that all their areas will be speedily dealt with.
  LORD CALVERLEY: My Lords, should I put down a Question to the noble Earl so that I can have a reply?
  EARL DE LA WARR: Certainly, if the noble Lord wishes.

RESIGNATION OF COLONEL YOUNG
11.8 a.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement on the resignation of Colonel Arthur Young from his post as Commissioner of Police for Kenya, due to serious differences of opinion with the Government of Kenya on questions of policy.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD LLOYD): My Lords, noble Lords will have seen from Press Reports that Colonel Young, whose temporary appointment as Commissioner of Police in Kenya was not due to terminate till next March, has resigned. My right honourable friend and I were aware that certain differences of opinion had arisen between Colonel Young and the Kenya Government on the status of the Police but had hoped that these would be resolved by discussion in Kenya. We are awaiting a full report from the Governor.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am sure that all noble Lords will regret the unfortunate dispute which has arisen in Kenya. May I ask the noble Lord whether he will join me in trying to arrange, through the usual channels, for a debate at an early date after the House resumes? Secondly, may I ask the noble Lord whether his attention has been drawn to a statement in the Daily Telegraph this morning which suggests that the dispute is not so much between

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Colonel Young and the Government as between Colonel Young and the Army. Is that correct?
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, if I may deal first with the second of the noble Lord's questions, as I explained to him we have not yet received the Governor's comments on Colonel Young's resignation. I understand that Colonel Young made a number of complaints but that the main cause of disagreement was between him and the Kenya Government, and appears to have arisen out of the recommendation in paragraph 51 of the Police Commission Report on the status of the Police. The Commission recommended that the Police in Kenya should be given the same Common Law status of the constable as is enjoyed by the Police in the United Kingdom, though they recognised that the African constable would for some time require to be closely supervised by his officers.
The Kenya Government felt unable to go as far in the direction of accepting this recommendation as Colonel Young wished. Their reason was that the position in Kenya is very different from that in the United Kingdom and that the overall responsibility for the preservation of law and order rests with the Provincial Administration, which is directly responsible to the Governor. A White Paper was published on December 14 presenting to the Kenya Legislative Council the Government's decision on the recommendations in the Police Commission Report. A copy of this White Paper has not yet been received. Discussions with Colonel Young took place in Kenya in November on this conflict of views. At one point Colonel Young then threatened to resign, but it was eventually agreed that a Working Party should be set up for the purpose of resolving the difficulties. Colonel Young visited the United Kingdom in the middle of November and had a discussion with my right honourable friend. His attitude at that time was that he had come home for the purpose of seeking advice on one or two points so as to be as helpful as possible in the proposed Working Party.
Those are the circumstances leading up to this situation, so far as I know them. I have no knowledge of any dispute between Colonel Young and the Army. I have always understood that the main
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issue of principle lay between Colonel Young and the Kenya Government. On the noble Lord's second point, I shall, of course, be only too pleased at any time for noble Lords to have an opportunity to debate the whole of this matter when we return after the Christmas Recess.
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I feel sure the noble Lord will agree that all this discussion and speculation in the newspapers, which often have not complete knowledge of the facts, is undesirable. The best way to end it is by some Government statement. Has not the Colonial Secretary pronounced any views on this matter in discussions with Colonel Young and the Government of Kenya? If so, may we know what those views are?
LORD LLOYD: I thought that I had explained this particular point fully to the House. It was hoped that a compromise agreeable to both parties would have been reached before the setting up of the Working Party. This has supervened. Until my right honourable friend has received the Governor's comments on this new development, obviously it is impossible for him, and quite undesirable, that he should make any statement. I have offered the noble Lord a debate as soon as we return, when the situation, we hope, will be clarified. Clearly, I could not be expected to make a statement to-day, seeing that, as I say, we have not yet received the Governor's comments.
EARL JOWITT: Will the Government make an official statement directly the report is received?
LORD LLOYD: We cannot make a statement when Parliament is not sitting. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has asked me whether we can have a debate when Parliament resumes and I have offered him a debate. I do not see what more the Government can do at the present stage.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: What is there to prevent the Government from issuing a statement during the Recess?
LORD LLOYD: I am prepared to consider the point, but I should not think it would be much good issuing a statement if it cannot be discussed and debated. I should think it would be better to wait until we came back before issuing a statement.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, on behalf of the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 41 be considered in order to its being dispensed with for the purpose of passing the National Insurance Bill and the Wireless Telegraphy (Validation of Charges) Bill through their remaining stages.—(Earl Fortescue.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

PERSONAL BILLS COMMITTEE
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD TERRINGTON): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing on the Order Paper in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Drogheda.
Moved, That the Personal Bills Committee be appointed to which all Petitions for Personal Bills presented during the present Session, which have been certified as such under the provisions of Standing Order 3 relating to Private Bills, shall stand referred; and also to move that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

E. Macclesfield,

V. Simonds,

L. Merthyr,

L. Kershaw,

L. Morton of Henryton,

L. Cohen.—(Lord Terrington.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL
11.16 a.m.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been dispensed with (pursuant to Resolution):
THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (THE EARL OF SELKIRK): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Pethick-Lawrence indicated on the Second Reading stage, and as your Lordships will observe, we are not going to take any part whatever in resisting this Bill—and for two simple reasons. First, it is a Bill which, as the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, said, though not a certified Bill, deals primarily with money matters, and is therefore peculiarly a Bill which, under the modern convention, should be left to another place for its main discussion. Secondly, although we may all think, perhaps, that in this, that or the other respect the Bill is not quite all that we should have liked, yet no sensible person can doubt that the Bill does make a very great improvement in the existing conditions. That being so, we are most anxious to see it passed into law at the earliest possible moment. It is for that reason that we are taking the course we are taking.
At the same time I should like to say this. I hope that the Government will not regard this as by any means a final settlement of this matter. In the nature of things, they had to produce this Bill before they had had the advantage of reading the Phillips Report, because the Bill either came out contemporaneously with, or, I think, just before, the Phillips Report was issued. It is, therefore, inevitably, in the nature of an interim Bill, in the sense that the Report of the Committee to whom we are so greatly indebted, which was presided over by a very wise civil servant, was not available at the time the Bill was first introduced. Now that we have seen the Phillips Report we know that there is, clearly, a great deal in it which needs and merits consideration—which I have no doubt the Government will give it. I only hope that the fact that we are passing this Bill now—and, as I say, the Bill was prepared before the recommendations of the Phillips Report were known—will not in any sense preclude us from coming back to this subject again, and that the Government will not regard this (I do not think they will) as in any way a matter which has been settled and decided once and for all. It is in that spirit and in that hope that we are glad to co-operate with the Government in seeing this Bill through to the Statute Book, since it plainly makes a substantial improvement

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to the existing position. I am glad to see that the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, has a Motion on the Order Paper to discuss the recommendations of the Phillips Report. Even without being spurred on by Lord Beveridge, I hope that the Government will lose no opportunity of considering the implications of that Report, and I trust that, as a result of that consideration, further legislation will be introduced in the near future.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble and learned Earl for what he has said, and for offering no objection to what I must admit is rather fast Parliamentary procedure. I am grateful to the noble and learned Earl, and to the other noble Lords with him, for the line which they have taken. I should say of this Bill that it is only a very simple one: it in no way alters the structure; it is merely a changing of rates. The Phillips Report was seen by the Minister before the Bill was published, in order to make quite certain that there was nothing in it that might be directly contrary to what he was doing; but I entirely agree that the Phillips Report was not considered in the sense of our incorporating in this Bill anything at all to which it made reference.
I could not agree more with the noble and learned Earl that this is a matter which must be thoroughly considered. I do not think anyone would accuse me of underestimating the nature of the problem of providing for our aged. In moving the Second Reading of the Bill, I put the case frankly and openly, and demonstrated beyond peradventure, I think, that we shall need constantly to have this subject under review. There will be an opportunity of examining the Phillips Report in the not distant future, but I can say that I am quite certain that for some years to come we shall have to reconsider the whole manner in which benefits have to be paid. I readily accept what the noble and learned Earl has said, and I thank your Lordships.
LORD KERSHAW: My Lords, I understand that the Phillips Committee were mainly, if not wholly, concerned with old age pensions. We also have the Government Actuary's First Quinquennial
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Report on the whole scheme, which deals not only with old age pensions but with other benefits as well. I think that the question of old age pensions covered by this Bill should be considered, in due course, in relation to the Government Actuary's Quinquennial Report. I hope that when this matter does come up again we may have an opportunity of discussing the Government Actuary's Report as well as the Phillips Report.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, with the permission of the House, may I say that these Reports deal with two different subjects? The Motion by Lord Beveridge is particularly concerned with the Phillips Report, which deals with the economic problems of provision for old age. The noble Lord is raising the question of the Quinquennial Reports, which of course deals with a much wider subject, including questions of industrial injuries and all the other benefits. I would suggest that he might like to put down a Motion on the Order Paper to have this question discussed separately.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY (VALIDATION OF CHARGES) BILL
11.24 a.m.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been dispensed with (pursuant to Resolution):
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I do not want to detain your Lordships on this Bill, but as the Rules of Order of your Lordships' House are not very close perhaps I may here interpose answers to two supplementary questions on V.H.F. broadcasting put to me earlier to-day. I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Calverley, that he will have his V.H.F. for Lancashire and Yorkshire areas in the first stage of this development, but I am afraid that the noble Lord, Lord Rea, will not get his for Cumberland and West-morland. I now beg to move that the Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.
EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do adjourn during pleasure until twelve o'clock, when the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, will make a statement on N.A.T.O.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

N.A.T.O. MINISTERS' MEETING
12 noon.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF READING): My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now make the statement to which reference was made earlier. As the House is aware, a Ministerial meeting of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation is held at the end of each year in Paris at which we take stock of the progress of N.A.T.O. in both the civil and the military field. It is the final stage in our examination of the collective defence effort and of the contribution which each member nation makes. This year there has been a steady increase in the efficiency of N.A.T.O. forces. But there is yet much to do before we can be satisfied with the deterrent effect of the Alliance. Its full power has not yet been realised.
In order to attain this position of defensive and deterrent strength, we look forward, in the coming years, to an important contribution from the German Federal Republic. Even more significant, however, will be the effect of the new weapons with which the N.A.T.O. forces are now beginning to be equipped. As a result of this, the pattern of Western military strength in the next few years can achieve—and here I quote the words used by Mr. Foster Dulles in Washington yesterday:
"… a form of security which seeks the preservation of peace as its first objective, but in the event of war would not put the Continent in the position of 'having to be liberated'."
I entirely endorse those words. In this connection I know that public interest has been aroused by the knowledge that the North Atlantic Council has had before it a report by the Military Committee
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"on the pattern of N A.T.O. military strength over the next few year."
Before the Ministerial Meeting, all sorts of rumours were circulating of difficulties and disagreements on this question, between Governments or between the civil and the military authorities of N.A.T.O. None of these rumours was well-founded. As stated in the communiqué, the North Atlantic Council approved the Military Committee's report as a basis for defence planning and preparations by the N.A.T.O. military authorities. It noted, however, that this approval did not involve the delegation of the responsibility of Governments to make decisions for putting plans into action in the event of hostilities. Responsibility in this matter rests, therefore, with Governments. It will, for obvious reasons, not be possible to publish the detailed arrangements finally arrived at.
I should also report that the Ministers of the fourteen nations examined, once again, the underlying purposes, as well as recent manifestations, of Soviet policy. They could find no reason to consider that the Soviet threat to the free world has diminished. The massive military power of the Soviet Union is still growing rapidly. Soviet policy is still aimed at confusing, dividing and weakening the West. Therefore there was absolute agreement among my right honourable friend's colleagues that world peace, and the security and freedom of their countries, could not be safeguarded without a resolute and sustained effort to uphold the unity in strength of the North Atlantic Alliance. This the N.A.T.O. countries are firmly resolved to make.
12.4 p.m.
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I am sure your Lordships will be grateful to the noble Marquess for making that statement to us. He will not expect us to comment on it at this time, on the spur of the moment. This I would say, however: the statement seems to me reassuring and satisfactory, in that it emphasises, if I understand it aright, the fact that important decisions must be left to the Government and not to the soldiers, however eminent those soldiers may be—although, of course, I realise that arrangements may have to be made to enable the Governments to act quickly in case of need. I will only add at the moment that we shall wish to consider

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this statement—to "read, mark, learn and inwardly digest" it; and it may be that, when the House returns after the Recess, we shall wish for some discussion upon it.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble and learned Earl for his reception of this statement. The construction he has put upon it as to the respective powers of decision of the military and of Government is entirely correct: the ultimate decision rests exclusively with Government. I have no doubt that if the noble and learned Earl wishes to discuss the statement at a later stage, opportunity can be provided through the usual channels.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, would the noble Marquess permit me to ask him a question and to make an observation? The first thing that strikes most people about this statement, I think, is the assertion that it may be necessary to use nuclear weapons against conventional forces, in case they come in overwhelming strength. That means to say that we are willing to take the initiative in the use of the hydrogen bomb. The second point is this. This is another melancholy and ghastly assertion that nothing but an arms race can preserve the peace of the world. Every authority with experience of that, particularly Sir Edward Grey, has said that an arms race without negotiation can only end in war. That, in my judgment, is the great fear that obsesses the public to-day.
EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, I beg to move that the House be now adjourned until half past twelve, when we have a Royal Commission.
Moved accordingly and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION
12.35 p.m.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent:

National Insurance,

Wireless Telegraphy (Validation of Charges),

Dunoon Burgh (Pavilion Expenditure) Order Confirmation.