HL Deb 14 December 1954 vol 190 cc391-6

5.55 p.m.

THE EARL OF MANSFIELD rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state the average annual number of vehicles that have made use of the Forth ferries over the last five years, giving separate figures for the various categories, such as private cars, lorries, omnibuses and ambulances, and if they will give the approximate year in which it is expected that construction of the Forth Road Bridge will be begun. The noble Earl said: My Lords, in the earlier debate upon abnormal loads this afternoon the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, remarked that he would not be surprised to see the traffic system of this country come to a complete standstill within three or four years. The noble Earl need not wait that long to see it in the neighbourhood of the approaches to the Forth Bridge. It is all too apparent upon any summer day; and not only upon summer days but upon any occasion on which there is any somewhat abnormal flow of traffic, caused, for example, by football matches in winter, or throughout the three weeks of the Edinburgh Festival in the summer. Even on ordinary summer days anyone who approaches the Forth ferry and is fortunate enough to be able to get across without having to wait for at least two boats, may feel that he has done something out of the ordinary. The position there is truly chaotic and no amount of tinkering with or improving the ferry system can do much to cure that situation.

I understand that at present a new pier or quay is being built so that the present number of ferry boats may be increased from three to four. That will help a little but, at the time of the greatest stress of traffic, not to a very appreciable extent. The personnel of the ferry are helpful and efficient, and I think there cannot be any improvement from that point of view. We are practically at the point where no further improvement merely of the ferry service can have much effect. If the appalling congestion is to be relieved, it is necessary that the question of the Forth Road Bridge should be considered at once and given very early priority. Not only do vehicles get held up at the ferry for a long time, but many—particularly the heavier lorries, with abnormal loads, of which we have already heard this afternoon; all lorries with trailers, big motor buses and the like—cannot use the ferry system at all.

It may be asked: why do they not use the Kincardine Bridge, some miles further up the river? The answer is that the approaches to that bridge from both sides are tortuous, and on the north side narrow as well, so that route does not afford much relief. The result is that the main flow of traffic, which is unable or unwilling to face delays at the ferry, is compelled to come to the bottleneck between Stirling and Perth. That is my only "special pleading," for that section of my county which is comprised in the bottleneck and where, in this past year, unfortunately, fatal accidents have risen very considerably. Many of these accidents are caused by collisions with lorries. More often than not the lorry is not to blame, but when another vehicle meets a lorry in a head-on collision it is usually the occupant of the other vehicle who leaves the scene in a mortuary van. I have no other special pleading. I am pleading on behalf of the whole of the people of East Scotland, from Aberdeen to the Border—and, indeed, for manufacturers of the North of England, as well, for they are very much incommoded by the present position.

Since I put my Question on the Order Paper of your Lordships' House Scotland has had one further rebuff over this question of a Forth Road Bridge. The ingenious solution put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, has met with an uncompromising and flat refusal from Her Majesty's Government. The Times newspaper, reporting it this morning, remarks that it is causing a sense of frustration in Scotland. The Scottish newspapers naturally put it much more strongly and crudely. The Times is in error only in stating that a sense of frustration is now being caused. That frustration, admittedly growing fast, has been there for a very long time, and Scotland as a whole is not enthusiastic about what is, in the view of many of us, the miserable alternative offered, that of priority to a tunnel under the Clyde at Glasgow. This project, though it must be of undoubted service to the manufacturers of Glasgow and the Clydeside area, will be of little, if any, use to trade and industry in the rest of Scotland.

The continual refusal by successive Governments (for this is not a Party question, in any shape or form) to do anything concrete about a Forth Road Bridge is likely to worsen relations between Scotland and England. Scotland does not feel that she is getting a fair deal. It is for that reason that I am asking this Question to-day. I am asking Her Majesty's Government to give figures for the traffic that has passed over the present inadequate ferry system, so that it may be realised what a very large amount of extra traffic would go over a road bridge if it were there—a road bridge which could be at least kept up, and very likely largely paid for in part, by a toll system. If a toll system were adopted, it would certainly not meet with great objection front any quarter in Scotland.

Most particularly do I ask the second part of my Question: that Her Majesty's Government should give some indication when they are prepared to take—even though it be in the distant future—some definite action on this most important and vital question, a question in regard to which, as I have already said, Scotland feels that she is being somewhat scurvily treated. I beg to ask my Question.

6.2 p.m.

LORD MATHERS

My Lords, I am very glad that the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, has asked this Question. I think it may be appropriate for me to intervene briefly at this time before the Answer to the Question is given by the noble Earl who is to speak from the Government Front Bench. This is a matter which is causing a great deal of concern in Scotland, and has given concern over many years. The noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, is quite correct in saying that more than one Government has responsibility for the growing feeling of frustration that exists in Scotland with regard to this vexed matter of the increasing congestion—because I think that as the years pass it steadily increases—at the Forth ferry crossing.

I do not favour, and I never did favour, the idea put forward recently of having this matter dealt with by private means; by attempting to raise the money that would be necessary to build a Forth road bridge. I think that this is clearly a matter for Government action, and that the bridge should he built at public expense. The red herring—as I looked upon it—that was drawn across the track in order to divert attention from the urgency of the matter and the need for Government action on it, deserved, I thought, the answer it received. We have now had it clearly stated, on behalf of the Government, that this is not a matter for private enterprise; that it is a matter for the Government to take in hand, and that at some time—when we do not know—there will be a road bridge across the Forth.

All that has been done up to the present time is to consider the matter sufficiently to enable it to be decided at what point, and by what means, the Forth will be crossed near Queensferry. The borings and all the rest of it have been done, and the decision has already been taken that when a Forth Road Bridge is erected it will be erected at a particular site. The plea I have made previously, in order to demonstrate that this scheme will not be for ever in the position in which it is at the present time, with nothing concrete being done, is that the approach roads at least be started, and that the approaches to the new Forth Road Bridge site be prepared. The noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, has just stated that the Kincardine Bridge—quite a good bridge—somewhat fails of its purpose because of the nature of the approach roads. Therefore, I should like to be sure that, before the Forth Road Bridge is erected, an adequate road system is prepared to carry the traffic that would be forthcoming.

The noble Earl has made reference to statistics about potential traffic. My feeling about that matter—and this is why I was anxious to intervene in the debate before the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, replied—is that no real idea of the amount of traffic that would he carried by a Forth Road Bridge can be gained from statistics about traffic that is flowing at the present time. I am certain that this bridge, once it is erected, will carry much more traffic than anything that can be thought of at the present time. I am sure that it will be a popular crossing with the essential traffic. It will also be a popular addition to the road system of Scotland, and will add to the opportunities that we have of dealing with the tourist traffic—indeed, it would be quite an important adjunct to the road system in Scotland from that particular point of view. I hope that something can be said, now that all the alternatives have been cleared out of the way, to indicate that the Government will give us something to show that they are in earnest about the erection of a Forth Road Bridge. I believe that one method of doing that, and of giving a guarantee, so to speak, would be to proceed with the approach roads which, I understand, have already been planned.

6.9 p.m.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

My Lords, may I for the moment sidestep the special and general pleadings which we have heard and answer the Question which is on the Order Paper? The answer to it is this. On the ferry between North and South Queensferry, which is operated by the British Transport Commission, the average annual number of vehicles crossing in the last five years has been 402,789, made up of 339,520 private vehicles, 59,649 lorries, 2,529 buses and 1,091 ambulances. This amounts to a daily average of just over 1,100 vehicles. The actual numbers would be higher in summer and lower in winter. No detailed figures are available about the ferry between Granton and Burntisland, which was operated from early 1951 until the end of 1952 by a private concern. It is understood, however, that this ferry carried about 100,000 vehicles a year during its period of operation.

So far as the second part of the Question is concerned, I think the noble Earl is aware that about a year ago the Government announced an initial road programme under which schemes involving a total Exchequer expenditure of £50 million would be approved in the first three years. The Forth Road Bridge was not included in that programme and the Government are not yet in a position to outline any further programme beyond that period. The noble Lord, Lord Mathers, says that there might be unlimited traffic on the bridge. Even should the traffic be put up to 6,000 vehicles, I still do not think that the cost would be covered, and I am afraid that at the moment we have no reason to believe that anything like that figure could be justified.

The cost of the bridge at the present time would be in the neighbourhood of £15 million. On a programme of £50 million for three years, which is all the Government have announced, the noble Earl is expecting a very great deal if he thinks that one quarter of that amount should be spent in one place. If the noble Earl goes to Cornwall, as I did the other week-end, and hears what they have to say about the bridge at Saltash, or goes to the Severn and hears what they have to tell him there, or to the Humber or the Tyne, he will see that there is a row of bridges in all parts of the country that are urgently needed. Even if he goes to the Hebrides he will find that there is what is known as the North Ferry, between Benbecula and North Uist, which urgently demands, attention. For these reasons I think it is rather a pity that the noble Earl should discount the improvements which are being made to the existing ferry between North and South Queensferry. The noble Earl will remember, as I remember, the old ferry of some twenty years ago. The improvement on that of what we have today is enormous.

THE EARL OF MANSFIELD

My Lords. I would remind the noble Earl that the traffic problem has worsened slightly since twenty years ago.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

I was going to add that if there is as great an improvement between the ferry we have to-day and the next ferry as there was between the ferry of twenty years ago and that of to-day, there will be an enormous improvement. Steps are being taken to improve the piers, which will enable two boats to berth instead of one, and to improve the boats on the service, and it is hoped that these improvements will be in operation in not much more than twelve months' time from to-day.