Lords Sitting of 3 November 1953

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH
The QUEEN, being seated on the Throne, and attended by Her Officers of State (the Lords being in their robes), commanded the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, through the Lord Great Chamberlain, to let the Commons know, "It is Her Majesty's pleasure they attend Her immediately in this House."
Who being come, with their Speaker:
Her Majesty was pleased to speak as follows:
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
"I look forward eagerly to the visits which I am about to pay with My dear Husband to My peoples in overseas countries of the Commonwealth and Empire.
"My Government will continue to regard the relaxation of international tension and the preservation of peace as prime objects of their policy. To this end they are persisting in their efforts to bring about an early meeting between the Soviet Union and the three Western Powers.
"My Government will continue to take their full part in all efforts by the United Nations to promote international co-operation. The North Atlantic Alliance is fundamental to My Government's policy and they will do their utmost to keep it vital and strong.
"My Government are resolved to work constantly in harmony with the Government of the United States of America. They will also continue to co-operate with their partners in Western Europe to promote European unity and economic well-being. They hope to see the early establishment of the European Defence Community and will afford it all possible support.
"My Government will continue to work for a settlement of the problem of German unity, in conjunction with the Governments of France and the United States and in consultation with the German Federal Government. They will also maintain their efforts for the conclusion of an Austrian State Treaty.
"Though the fighting has ceased in Korea My Forces have still a part to play there under the United Nations Command. My Government are co-operating in efforts to bring about a political conference on Korea.
"My Government hope for a renewal of those friendly relations which have been traditional between this country and Persia and for an early resumption of normal diplomatic relations between the two countries.
"My Government attach the utmost importance to continued consultation with their partners in the Commonwealth and will take part in the Conference of Commonwealth Finance Ministers which will be held in Australia in January.
"My Ministers will continue to work for the progress and well-being of the

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peoples of My Colonial territories and protectorates. They will seek to ensure that measures of social and political advancement and of economic development are promoted in the interests of all races.
"My Government will ensure that My Forces continue to make their full contribution to world peace and stability.
"A measure will be introduced to strengthen and improve the effectiveness of My Reserve Forces and a proposal to continue the present National Service Scheme for a further period will also be presented to you.
"Members of the House of Commons
"The Estimates for Public Services will be laid before you in due course.
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
"It will be the constant aim of My Ministers to strengthen the national economy and thereby to safeguard the high standards of the social services and the stability of employment. To this end they will strive for a further improvement in the balance of overseas payments by encouraging the expansion of exports and of services earning income from abroad.
"My Ministers will continue to encourage the building of houses and schools. They will also stimulate a vigorous resumption of slum clearance. Legislation will be introduced to facilitate the repair and improvement of existing houses both by local authorities and private owners.
"Bills will be laid before you to amend the financial provisions of the Town and Country Planning Acts and the existing arrangements for payment of equalisation grant to local authorities in Scotland.
"Legislation will be introduced to effect leasehold reform in England and Wales and in Scotland.
"My Ministers will continue to encourage the agricultural industry to increase food production and improve the quality and efficiency of home output. My Ministers are consulting farmers and the trades concerned about new methods of providing price guarantees and of marketing which
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will be required as rationing and allocation cease to be necessary.
"My Government will also continue to pay close attention to the welfare of the fishing industry.
"Proposals will be laid before you for the transfer of responsibility for atomic energy from the Ministry of Supply to a statutory corporation.
"A measure will be introduced to bring the salaries of the judges of My Superior Courts of Law in the United Kingdom more into keeping with the dignity and responsibilities of their office.
"Legislation will be proposed to revise, consolidate and extend the law on the safety, health and welfare of miners and quarrymen, to provide benefit for certain further cases of disablement from industrial diseases, to amend and consolidate the law relating to food and drugs and to restrict night working in the baking industry.
"My Ministers are attentively examining the Road Traffic Acts with a view to introducing further legislation to improve road safety and promote the orderly use of the roads.
"Bills will be introduced to amend the constitution of the National Gallery and the Tate Gallery, to provide for a new governing body for the National Museum of Antiquities in Scotland and to prolong the powers of the National Film Finance Corporation.
"Among other measures which you will be invited to pass will be Bills to remove the restrictions at present imposed upon private persons wishing to trade in raw cotton and wind up the Raw Cotton Commission and to reorganise electricity supply in Scotland.
"My Ministers will lay before you their proposals for carrying out their policy for television development.
"My Ministers will give further consideration to the question of reform of the House of Lords.
"I pray that the blessing of Almighty God will rest upon your counsels."
Thereafter, Her Majesty withdrew.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

Prayers

  ROLL OF THE LORDS
  Garter King of Arms, attending, delivered at the Table of the House a List of the Lords Temporal in the Third Session of the Fortieth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
  Ordered, That the said List do lie on the Table.

  SELECT VESTRIES
  Bill, pro forma, read 1a.

  ADDRESS IN REPLY TO HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH
  The Queen's Speech reported by The LORD CHANCELLOR.
  3.14 p.m.
  THE EARL OF ROTHES: My Lords, I beg to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty as followeth:
  "Most Gracious Sovereign—We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to thank Your Majesty for the most gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."
  My Lords, I am deeply grateful to the noble Marquess the Leader of the House for the honour and privilege he has afforded me, most unexpectedly, in suggesting that I should propose the humble Address to Her Majesty on this occasion. When he did so, I feel sure that he had in mind the intention of a compliment to Scotland, and I am therefore doubly anxious to perform the task entrusted to me to the best of my ability.
  I know that your Lordships will agree that we are singularly blessed in our gracious Queen. None of us will ever forget the Coronation, and we shall always remember the supreme dignity and glace of our Queen from the beginning to the end of that impressive service—a Coronation Service which could be watched, for
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  the first time in history, by countless numbers of Her people. The pomp and ceremony were superb, but they were only the outward signs of something far more profound. A spiritual feeling of solemn dedication spread throughout this land and to the ends of the earth, uniting us all in devotion and thankfulness. It seemed as if a new age of chivalry had dawned upon our world. Our beloved Queen dedicated herself most solemnly to her people, and they in turn dedicated themselves to their Queen.
  We are indeed fortunate in our Sovereign and the Duke of Edinburgh, who, on every occasion, both official and unofficial, win the hearts of all around them, wherever they may be. In Scotland, we were especially glad to welcome them when they came, to Edinburgh after the Coronation and attended the Service of Dedication in St. Giles's Cathedral, to which the Honours of Scotland were borne in State and offered to Her Majesty in the presence of a congregation consisting of representatives of every aspect of Scottish life and interest. Very soon our Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh will be setting out on a long journey through the Commonwealth and Empire. Our heartfelt good wishes will go with them. I am convinced that one of the surest foundations of an honourable and lasting peace, which we all desire so much, is an ever-closer understanding between the English-speaking peoples of the world. And, my Lords, what a magnificent contribution our illustrious Queen and Her Royal husband have made, and are making, to this cause!
  In world affairs we are faced to-day with many and great difficulties. We trust that, with patience and steadfastness of purpose, we may be guided by right thinking to a just solution of these great problems. I welcome most heartily the reference in the gracious Speech to the Government's firm intention to support the United Nations and the North Atlantic Alliance, and to work with their partners in Western Europe to promote unity and economic well-being. I welcome equally all the other measures designed to lead to the relaxation of international tension and the preservation of peace. I hope and believe that we have made a little headway towards peace; but peace is by no means secure.

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  We must be realists. We have learned from experience that we can negotiate only from a position of strength; and for that reason I welcome the reference in the gracious Speech to the steps that will be taken to that end.
  It is most satisfactory to know that the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have returned to their full duties with renewed health and vigour. I welcome the Prime Minister's decision to stay on. Personally, I believe he is the greatest figure in world politics in our time and that his vast store of accumulated wisdom and experience is invaluable to us. I should like your Lordships to consider whether, under the stresses and strains of modern times, there is not a serious danger that most, if not all, Ministers of the Crown are being worked beyond human endurance. Owing to the speed and scope of communications and travel in the world to-day and the complex aftermath of two world wars, problems of every sort and kind accumulate so fast that it must often be well nigh impossible to deal with them, let alone have sufficient time to pause and think. Surely something should be done to alleviate this overwhelming burden before it is too late. The supply of men and women of the requisite knowledge and experience is by no means inexhaustible.
  Turning now to the economic situation, I am afraid there is still a large number of people in this country who have failed to grasp the full significance of the facts of our position. These people have noticed that the shops now have increased supplies of desirable goods; and they have consequently, and quite mistakenly, assumed that all is well. They discount the ominous warnings which have been given from time to time, on the grounds that nothing has happened in the past and therefore nothing disastrous is likely to happen in the future. This mood of false optimism on the part of a large number of people can lead only too quickly to complacency and relaxation of effort, and that is the last thing we can afford. We have clung to the edge of the cliff so long that there is a danger that, through a mistaken sense of security, we may unwittingly relax our hold, with inevitable consequences, for we are all on the same rope in this upward climb. We must export to live. Moreover, how well
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  we live will depend on how much we export. Our task is by no means becoming easier. Other countries are finding themselves in a position similar to our own, namely, of wishing to increase exports and reduce imports, with the result that markets are becoming closed to us and we have to face increasing competition.
  In spite of this, some sections of industry are doing excellent work in the field of exports. But what an enormous weight of anxiety would be lifted from our minds if the coal industry could manage to convert itself from an importing industry to an exporting industry once again! It is true that in our general position we have made some progress, but as yet we cannot be certain of being able to pay our way in the world in the months and years that lie ahead. There is therefore a vital need for a sustained and responsible feeling of urgency and understanding throughout all grades of industry, both management and labour; for everything depends in the long run upon the results of their efforts and ingenuity. I am very glad to see the statements in the gracious Speech which indicate that the Government are well aware of the position. I have ventured on previous occasions to call your Lordships' attention to the damaging burden of taxation on industry, as well as the fallacious basis of the assessment of tax on profits. Great help can be given in these matters. Already something has been done, but much, much more is urgently needed if a robust and healthy industry is to win the battle for exports.
  On the other side of the picture, the one industry which, probably more than any other, helps us to reduce imports, is the agricultural industry. The noble Earl who will second this Motion has great practical knowledge of that subject, and I will refrain, therefore, from any comment except to say that I believe it to be recognised on all sides that the agricultural industry is of prime importance to our future well-being. Consequently, I am exceedingly glad to read the reference to it in the gracious Speech and trust that a fair and practical scheme can be worked out with all the interests concerned. This is a matter of great importance.
  I welcome the references in the gracious Speech to the social services, but I must confess that the outlook as

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  regards the cost of the Health Service seems to me disquieting. Your Lordships will recollect that, although the initial cost for the Health Service was reckoned to be high, it was thought that it would tend to stabilise itself, for the reason that a better Health Service would mean better health, with a consequent reduction in demand. In practice the reverse seems to be happening: both the demand and the cost have increased—particularly the cost. No doubt there are many reasons for this; but I think that two of the more important ones may be, first, that as medical science advances new tests and treatments are discovered and these are adopted as part of the normal routine; secondly, that due to medical science people are living longer, so that there are more people wanting more services over a longer period. Clearly, it is unthinkable to try to stop the advance of medical science; so it would seem that we must be faced with a rising cost year by year. I do not say this in any critical spirit, but rather as a member of the board of governors of a teaching hospital in London who is sincerely disturbed at the prospect.
  I am certain that everyone will read with great relief the reference in the gracious Speech to the improvement of road safety. It is horrifying to contemplate that during last September there was one casualty every two minutes and one person killed or seriously injured every eight minutes in road accidents. The increase in the total was the largest so far recorded in any month this year. This is by no means a new problem, nor is there any easy solution, but I am inclined to the view that if all road users, be they drivers of vehicles, cyclists or pedestrians, co-operated closely together, each being willing to sacrifice something for the good of all, we should make some progress; and if, in addition, careful schemes of road improvement could be carried out, I think a marked reduction in the number of road accidents would result.
  There is in the gracious Speech a most interesting reference to further consideration being given to the reform of your Lordships' House. This is a controversial subject and I will, therefore, speak with great care; but I would ask your Lordships to maintain the position
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  of the Scottish representative Peers in your Lordships' House under the Act of Union in any plan of reform which may be considered Your Lordships are no doubt aware that sixteen Scottish representative Peers are elected for each Parliament. It may be that some such principle of election of Peers would be a constructive line of thought to pursue and examine further with regard to your Lordships' House in general.
  There is one further comment I should like to make. I have often thought it was most unfortunate that the constitution of, and the proceedings in, your Lordships' House are so improperly understood and not infrequently commented upon by people outside who are not only unacquainted with the full faces but also apparently unaware of the volume and importance of the business done. It may mean that there is a need for some reliable means of spreading accurate information on this complicated subject, and I would submit that this aspect of the matter becomes of increasing importance when the question of reform is under active consideration.
  I am very interested in the references to Scotland in the gracious Speech, which I think are good evidence that the Secretary of State and his advisers are tackling Scottish problems with great energy. In particular, the proposals designed to improve housing conditions and to preserve existing properties, as well as measures to deal with the payment of equalisation grant, will be awaited with great interest, as will also the Government's proposal to reorganise the electricity industry in Scotland and the suggestions for leasehold reform. Doubtless the latter will take full account of the recent recommendation of the Scottish Leases Committee. I feel sure that your Lordships will agree that in all matters affecting Scotland, many of which are special problems peculiar to that country, a sensible measure of delegation of authority to those on the spot is to be welcomed and is much more likely to bring a satisfactory result than remote direction from London.
  My Lords, there are many other important references in the gracious Speech, all of which I welcome, in particular those with regard to housing and kindred problems, but I will leave them in the capable hands of the noble Earl who is going to

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  second this Motion. In conclusion, I should like to say this. Clearly, we are beset at the present time, both at home and abroad, with many and grave problems; but do not let us be dismayed. Let us go forward under our beloved Queen, echoing in our hearts the prayer in the gracious Speech, and strive for a freer and happier world, remembering the words of Pericles that:
  "The secret of happiness is Liberty and the secret of Liberty is Courage."
  I beg to move.
  Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty as followeth—
  "Most Gracious Sovereign—We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to thank Your Majesty for the most gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.—(The Earl of Rothes.)
  3.36 p.m.
  EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I am deeply conscious of the honour that the noble Marquess the Leader of the House has paid me in asking me to second this Motion. I am particularly conscious of that honour, as this is only the second time that I have ventured to address your Lordships, and I hope that I shall not be presuming if I ask for the same kindness to-day that your Lordships extended to me on that other occasion. My noble friend Lord Rothes has already referred to the impending tour of Her Majesty and His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh, but I should like to add my humble good wishes, and further to assure Her Majesty and His Royal Highness that the thoughts not only of all your Lordships but of the whole nation go with them to wish them Godspeed, a happy and successful tour and a safe return to this Island.
  Turning to the proposals in the gracious Speech. I welcome the reference to the introduction of legislation
  "to facilitate the repair and improvement of existing houses, both by local authorities and private owners."
  The reform of the Rent Restrictions Acts is long overdue, and I should like to congratulate the Government on their courage in tackling it at this particular
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  moment. It is liable to be a controversial measure, but I feel that they can rely on the good sense of the people for their support. It would not be proper for me, on this occasion, to make any suggestions as to how this most complex problem should be dealt with, but there are some aspects of it to which I should like to draw your Lordships' attention. Although the problem embraces all rent-restricted houses, whether they be in town or in country, there are special difficulties that face the owners of rural houses. For one thing, many of them are let at 3s. 6d. or less per week, and therefore any percentage increase, whilst it may prove a solution in the town, cannot but be wholly inadequate in the country. Whether a three-bed roomed cottage is let at 2s. 6d. or 12s. 6d. a week, it costs just the same to put in a new grate, or to put on a new roof.
  I have seen some figures of three typical agricultural estates which I think may be of some interest to your Lordships. On each estate, apart from purely agricultural property, there are between fifty and sixty cottages, and the average amount spent on repairs—and let me make it clear that no improvements are included in these figures—over the last five years exceeds the income from these cottages by between £11 and £13 per house per year. Further, I would emphasise that there is nothing extravagant in the way of repairs on these estates: the cottages are kept wind and waterproof, and in a reasonable state of repair, but nothing more. For those who own property in what I may call amenity areas, there are special problems, as the majority of the old cottages have almost certainly been scheduled by the local authority as buildings of historic and architectural value, which means that no external alterations can be made without reference to the local authority. I trust that special consideration can be given to these cases where repairs will necessarily involve exceptional cost.
  We are all concerned with the retention of the agricultural labour force on the land, and it is generally agreed that what is helping to drive the agricultural labourer from the land is the lack of the basic amenities of life—water, sanitation, baths, and lighting. I sincerely hope that the proposed legislation will make it possible for the landlord to make these

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  improvements, so that within measurable time, no matter where an agricultural worker may go, he can be assured that he will find these amenities in his new home.
  My Lords, I regret that the present world tension and the outlook for the immediate future make it necessary to continue with National Service on its present scale, and with a further liability for service for five years in the event of an emergency. I am sure, however, that all those who are liable to be called up during 1954 will be extremely grateful to the Government for having so clearly stated, as long ago as last February, what their intentions were in this matter. As an ex-Territorial myself, I should like to say one word of praise for that extremely fine section of the Army. From being a small but proud body of volunteers, they have grown, in a matter of a very few years, into a large and formidable force, owing to the intake of National Service men. At the same time, they have retained all their old individualism and what I might term yeoman spirit. This does great credit not only to the National Service men, but to that nucleus of old volunteers who stayed on in order to show the new intake the way that a good Territorial should go. I understand that a considerable number of National Service men have so enjoyed their service with the Territorial Army that they have asked if they may continue in that Force after their three and a half years' compulsory service is completed.
  My noble friend Lord Rothes has referred to the Road Traffic Acts and the legislation that will be introduced to improve safety on the roads. I am sure that this step will be welcomed on all sides of the House. I trust that the Government will do all in their power to eliminate what the police call "black spots," those places which from bitter experience have been shown to attract accidents. What I should like to do now is to consider the individual users of the road. There are three main groups—the motorist, the pedal cyclist and the pedestrian. I feel, like my noble friend, that all these three groups have got to be prepared to make some sacrifices in order to improve general safety.
  First, let us take the motorist, with whom I bracket the motor cyclist. I feel that those convicted of dangerous
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  driving, as opposed to careless driving, should suffer very much heavier penalties than they usually do at present. In my own experience as a magistrate, most of those convicted of dangerous driving have been driving in a very reckless manner, with a complete disregard for other users of the road and a determination to get by some obstruction, cost what it may. I should like to see it made compulsory that anyone convicted of dangerous driving should take a further road test before being allowed to drive on the road again. I feel that magistrates might well make more use of this power, which they already possess, when dealing with convictions for careless driving. I fully appreciate that the position of magistrates, when faced with cases of dangerous or careless driving by someone whose livelihood depends on his driving a vehicle, is extremely difficult. To deprive a man of his main source of income is a severe penalty. Nevertheless, I feel that, in the public interest, magistrates must be prepared, in all bad cases, to take away driving licences for long periods. Before I leave the motorist there is one other point that I would mention, namely the parking by motorists on curves and just below the crests of hills. As I understand it, there is nothing in the law to prevent motorists from so doing, yet such acts cause innumerable accidents and are a continuous headache to the police. I would ask Her Majesty's Government to consider that point.
  I come now to the second group of road users, the pedal cyclists. So far as I can ascertain, there is no law which makes it an offence for cyclists to ride three abreast, but a large number of accidents are caused by cyclists riding in this manner, although the cyclists themselves may not be involved in the accident. I would suggest that some legislation is needed here also, for the practice is mentioned in the Highway Code as being highly undesirable. Then, my Lords, cyclists are compelled by law to carry a rear light, and I feel that, here again, the penalties should be very much heavier where people are convicted of a breach of this law. I know that my next point, which concerns cycle tracks, will not be popular with cyclists, but I feel that, in the interests of public safety, where a cycle track is provided it should be compulsory for cyclists to use it.

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  Now let me come to the pedestrian, who is at once the most numerous and the most defence less user of Her Majesty's highway. We have lately seen the introduction of zebra crossings, which I think have been a great success—the more pedestrians use them, the better for everyone concerned. In built-up areas where there is a reasonable number of controlled crossings of one sort or another, a pedestrian should be made a party to an accident if he crosses at other than a recognised crossing and in any way helps to cause that accident. We shall await with interest the proposals of Her Majesty's Government on this important subject of road safety.
  Next, a word on agriculture. Her Majesty's Government have continually assured us that they have no intention of abandoning the 1947 Act, but frankly, they seem surprised that those promises alone do not reassure the farmers. Speaking for myself, I have every confidence that these pledges will be fulfilled, but it is no good pretending that mere words will satisfy the agricultural community as a whole: they are far too conscious of what has happened in the past. In times of crisis, agriculture immediately becomes the cherished child of any Government, but as soon as there is any sign of cheap food the parentage of that child becomes a matter of doubt, and it is liable to be left to fend for itself. Promises have been given and broken too often in the past for the farmers to put a lot of faith in them now. What they require, if their confidence is to be restored, is something a great deal more tangible. As I see it, the two main worries at the moment are corn and beef. As regards the former, we have had a White Paper which, in my opinion, is excellent, and I see no reason why the scheme should not work satisfactorily. But, as is inevitable with a White Paper of this sort, questions are raised to which the answer is not immediately apparent. The National Farmers' Union have, apparently, been put in a position to answer these questions, whereas, so far as I can find out, the county agricultural committees have been given no guidance whatsoever. Surely, this is an invidious position for the committees,
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  who are, after all representatives of the Minister.
  I am sure your Lordships are well aware of the difficulties experienced by farmers, this summer, in selling their corn, and in getting it off the farm. As I see it, this came about through a number of causes. First, Government granaries were largely full of imported grain. Secondly, it was probably one of the highest yielding harvests, if not the highest, that we have ever had. Thirdly, there are many more combine harvesters now in use than there have been previously. Fourthly—and this really results from all of the three points I have mentioned—the merchants were much more careful in their selection of the grain they bought. The day when merchants would turn a blind eye to minor faults in samples has passed; and, from the public point of view, that is all to the good. But if I am right in assuming that Her Majesty's Government wish to maintain the present acreage of cereal crops, something has got to be done about this problem, and done quickly.
  I know that a farmer in a large way can put up his own storage, but he, along with the rest of the farming community, has had his faith rather shaken, and is therefore reluctant to lay out large sums of money at the present time. However, it is the smaller farmer who is most in need of help. As a result of the exhortations of the Minister of Agriculture, he is growing considerably more cereal than he would normally be doing. It is this man who requires to be assured that the produce of these extra acres will be taken off the farm in reasonable time. Further, some explanation as to how this will be done must be given to him before he commences his spring sowing, otherwise we shall find large areas being under-sown with long leys, which will mean a very great reduction in the corn acreage in 1955. And once the land is leyed down it will take more than £5 an acre ploughing subsidy to get it back under cereal crops.
  If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion which, I think, would at least help towards solving this problem, it is this. Under the conditional aid from our good friends in the United States of America, there is a sum of £300,000 for a revolving loan, which it is suggested should be used, at a low rate of interest, to help in the erection of grain-drying

  17
  and storage plants on the farms. This loan is available for three years only, but if the Treasury would be responsible for continuing the loan for, say, a further five or seven years, real use could be made of it, because under normal conditions it is extremely difficult for a farmer to repay a loan of any size within three years. And now a word about the production of beef. I fully appreciate that the gracious Speech is no place for any pronouncement upon how this very difficult problem is to be solved, but I sincerely hope that during tins debate we shall be given details—and full details—as to how the Government propose to solve it.
  My noble friend Lord Rothes has already referred to the reform of your Lordships' House, and upon that I should like to add but a very few words. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that all your Lordships are deeply concerned with the future of this House and the part that it is to play in the government of the country. There are those who believe that your Lordships' House is doing a very satisfactory job as it is and, therefore, that there is no reason to change its Constitution. There are others who support my noble and learned friend Lord Simon in his belief that the creation of Life Peers would be a possible solution. Again, there are those who believe that your Lordships' House should be, either in part or in whole, an elected body. There are, I know, many other suggestions, and I presume that it is to these alternatives that Her Majesty's Government will be giving their further consideration. May I, as a very humble Member of your Lordships' House, make a personal appeal to noble Lords opposite, and to their friends in another place, that they should reconsider their decision of last Session, and intimate their willingness to join in an all-Party Conference on this matter. By so doing they would, I feel sure, earn the gratitude of all your Lordships.
  Finally, I should like to direct your Lordships' attention to this noble Chamber itself in which we meet. Before the war, I listened to a few debates in your Lordships' House, and since your Lordships have returned to this Chamber I have listened to a good many more. But I am still undecided whether one heard your Lordships with more clarity
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  before the war, when there was no army of microphones, or since our return, when we have had this vast array of ugly instruments suspended from the ceiling. Nowadays, when noble Lords are speaking from the Dispatch Box, one can hear them with ease. But those who speak from elsewhere in the House are apt at times to be quite inaudible. Maybe the fact that there are microphones lulls noble Lords into a false sense of their audibility. I hope that I have not suffered from that myself this afternoon. Would it not be possible to have rather more sensitive microphones; or better still, noble Lords might well follow the example of Her Majesty, who so far has addressed us but twice—this morning and on a like occasion last year. Without the aid of any microphone, yet without any apparent effort, Her Majesty made herself heard in every corner of your Lordships' House. It is an example which I venture to suggest we might well humbly try to follow. I beg to second the Motion for an humble Address so ably moved by the noble Earl at my side.
  3.59 p.m.
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I rise at this stage to move that the debate be now adjourned. It is a very convenient system which we adopted, I believe for the first time last year, that on this day we should confine ourselves to the pleasant—task which I can undertake quite sincerely—of congratulating most heartily the Mover and Seconder on coming through their ordeal, and of saying such peasant things as may occur to us. To-morrow we shall start the serious business of the debate, and I shall then be saying such unpleasant things as I may feel it my duty to say to noble Lords opposite. We have witnessed to-day a wonderful. ceremony, and I hope that clown the centuries a corresponding ceremony will be witnessed. It symbolises so much in our history, and it enshrines those two ideals which are so essential for democracy: first, that there shall be an element of controversy, so that two points of view are put forward; and secondly, that underlying that controversy there shall be a large measure of agreement. That is the happy position in which we find ourselves in this country. We do not want to shoot each other. We do not bang

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  desks or bring out revolvers. We even remain good friends—although we certainly have our sincere political differences. All that is largely due to the example which we have come to learn from our own Royal Family, who stand above the controversies of the day, who stand for something higher and something more permanent, who stand to uphold those great traditions which our forefathers have handed down to us and which, I hope, we shall hand down in due course to those who come after us.
  I thought that both noble Lords in their speeches to-day succeeded very well in bringing out these points. With everything they said about Her Gracious Majesty I would humbly desire to be associated, and in particular with the hopes which they both expressed about the complete success of Her Majesty's tour. I sometimes feel rather ashamed to think of the immense demand we make on her time and energy. I hope that in future there will be times when she may be able to enjoy, so far as a person in her exalted position can do so, her private life in her own way.
  May I say a word or two about the Mover and Seconder of the humble Address? The Mover, as he has told us hails from Scotland, and, a mere Sassenach myself, I am all the more agreeable to listen to him. When I add that I believe he is closely identified with a great publishing house which deals with law books and that no lawyer can be really learned unless he reads the books for which the noble Lord is responsible, I must pay him a great debt of gratitude. I can assure him that there is nothing in the books which he produces which can arouse any misgivings on the part of the strictest Mrs. Grundy. It seemed to me that in his speech the noble Earl happily steered between the difficulties of platitude on the one hand and controversy on the other, and when he came anywhere near controversy he walked with a delicacy which Agag in his time might have envied.
  The noble Earl who seconded the Motion was perfectly well heard from this side of the House and, indeed, would have been heard without a microphone. Whether it is that people do not speak up as they used to speak when I was younger, or that I have got rather older
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  and do not hear so well, I am not quite sure; but I certainly find that all judges as they get older lament the fact that counsel do not speak up as they used to do. I have this grievance with the noble Earl who seconded: that when he came to deal with agriculture, a subject about which I am going to say something to-morrow, the noble Earl took all the points I was going to make and said them so much better than I can hope to say them that I confess he has put me in a position of considerable difficulty.
  The noble Earl asked that we should extend to him the favour and grace which we normally extend to noble Lords when making their maiden speeches. He confessed it was his second speech to the House, and as he spoke without any trace of nervousness it is obvious that we shall never extend to him that latitude again. But, having said that, I very much hope that both he and the Mover will find the time to come to the House and address us more often than they have done heretofore, because I would say, with the greatest sincerity, having listened to them, that both noble Earls have it in them to make really valuable contributions to the debates in your Lordships' House; and I am old fashioned enough to believe that debates in this House are still of value to the country. I do not make the mistake of thinking that all noble Lords who do not come here are doing nothing for the public good—the very reverse. Nevertheless, if these noble Earls can manage to come here more often, I am sure the whole House will be grateful. In moving that the debate be now adjourned, I would say with complete sincerity that I have thoroughly enjoyed the two speeches to which we have listened. I congratulate the noble Earls again on their safe delivery, and I hope we shall hear them often in future.
  Moved, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Earl Jowitt.)
  4.6 p.m.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I would ask leave of the House to support the Motion which has just been moved. The noble and learned Earl who has just spoken has said that this House is a democratic Assembly and that it fulfils one of the conditions of such an Assembly by allowing two points of view to be put—two, apparently, but not a third. It seems that this Assembly is even more

  21
  democratic than he suggested, because it is your Lordships' courteous practice to permit noble Lords on these Benches, who belong to neither of the two main Parties, to express, on suitable occasions, the opinions they hold. On this occasion they hold the opinion that you all hold—namely, that the Mover and Seconder of this Motion have performed their function admirably. Their task, it is well known, is a difficult one, because they are required to enumerate a large number of topics, many of which are controversial, without being themselves controversial. They have performed that task today with great tact, even referring to the most delicate of all subjects—namely, the composition of your Lordships' House—in terms to which no one could possibly take exception. All the salient points in the gracious Speech from the Throne they have referred to in admirable expressions. It is another example of the amount of debating talent which exists within this House but which is so seldom brought out before the public eye.
  The noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, said that the speeches to-day were an example showing the deep roots of this Chamber in the history of the country. That, indeed, is so. We hear much now of the possibility of a revived Elizabethan Age. I wonder whether the noble Marquess the Leader of the House had that in mind when arranging the procedure for to-day, because it so happens that he himself and the two other speakers from those Benches are in their own persons connections with those distant times. Desiring a little further information with regard to the noble Earls who moved and seconded the Motion to-day as a guide for my own observations, I found that they, with the noble Marquess, are through their own families connected with the age of the first Elizabeth. The noble Earl, Lord Rothes, had an ancestor who was in the service of Mary, Queen of Scots, and who went with her to France when she travelled there to be married to the Dauphin; while at about the same time an ancestor of the noble Earl, Lord St. Aldwyn, a certain Sir Michael Hicks, was Secretary to the Lord Treasurer of Queen Elizabeth and the Lord Treasurer was Lord Burghley, an ancestor of the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury. So here we have, in the speakers from these three families, a strange
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  revival of that distant age—an age distant and how different!
  We are no longer in the romantic period of cloak and dagger. The noble Lords who are taking part to-day are all engaged in the peaceful pursuits of modern civilisation. The noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, if he ever feels an innate, inherited instinct or desire to send some of his political opponents—and, even more strongly, some of his colleagues—to the Tower for execution, successfully suppresses those primitive instincts. The noble Earl, Lord Rothes, gives his service to the affairs of Scotland and to the peaceful pursuits of commerce and industry; and the noble Earl, Lord St. Aldwyn, devotes himself to agriculture and the National Services. These experiences have given them a wide range of knowledge that has enabled them, as we have heard to-day, to make speeches full of practical suggestions and admirably informed; and by so doing they have rendered good service to your Lordships' House.
  4.12 p.m.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I do not propose to follow the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, in the various extremely interesting historical researches it which he has been indulging, and in the course of which he put what I must say I feel were some rather improper suggestions into my mind. My purpose in rising is merely to support the Motion which has been moved by the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, for the adjournment of the debate. In doing so, I should like to add to what has already been said my very warm congratulations both to the Mover and the Seconder of the humble Address to Her Majesty on the admirable way in which they performed their task, which, as has been said, is never an easy one.
  The noble Earl, Lord Rothes, who moved the Address, is, of course, no newcomer to our debates. For a good many years now, as I remember, and as I am sure the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, and the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, remember too, he has made extremely interesting and varied contributions to our debates, particularly on those industrial and financial subjects on which he speaks with special authority. To-day I thought he again spoke extremely

  23
  weighty words on those particular topics. On this occasion, as is natural, he also spread his net rather wider. But what struck me was that on all these wider subjects he showed that same thoughtful and moderate approach which we have always found in his earlier speeches. I can pay him no higher compliment. As I listened to the noble Earl, my only regret—and I think it is a regret which is shared by the whole House—is that his other duties make it so difficult for him to speak to us more often. I know that we all listened to him to-day with both deep interest and great profit, and I am certain that the whole House will be grateful to him for the wise and, in many respects, moving speech that he delivered on this important occasion.
  I should now like to say a word or two about the Seconder, the noble Earl, Lord St. Aldwyn. He, also, I thought, acquitted himself nobly in seconding the Address. I do not think we can call him a stranger to this House, either; he comes here, I know, as often as he possibly can. Although he has told us this afternoon that this is only the second time that he has addressed your Lordships, there are a great many of us who already know him, above all, for his interest and knowledge of agriculture. It was to those problems of the countryside which are so near to all our hearts that the noble Earl addressed his remarks this afternoon. He had, I thought—and it was the great merit of the speech which he delivered—advice to give us in that vital field which was based on his own personal experience. We do not really want academic speeches in this House, but we always listen with interest to somebody who knows what he is talking about—and it was clear from what the noble Earl said to us this afternoon that he knew perfectly well what he was talking about. I can assure him that his advice, which was always constructive, will be carefully studied by the Ministers concerned. Where he was critical—and in one or two respects he was critical—it was always constructive criticism, and will be accepted by the Government in that spirit.
  Altogether, I feel that we have had, following the very moving and impressive ceremony of this morning, two fine performances to start us on our labours
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  in this new Session. I should like to congratulate both the noble Earls who have spoken for the admirable way in which they have triumphed over what must inevitably have been, even for experienced speakers, a nerve-racking occasion. Certainly, by their speeches this afternoon, they have both enhanced the great reputation which they already enjoyed in this House. I will not add anything further. There were many interesting and, in many ways, thought-provoking topics raised by the two noble Earls and I do not doubt that in the speeches that follow in this debate these topics will be developed.
  On Question, Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned accordingly.

  CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES
  4.18 p.m.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I beg to move that the Earl of Drogheda be appointed to take the Chair in all Committees of this House for this Session.
  Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to nemine dissentiente.
  Committee for Privileges—Appointed.
  Committee for the Journals—Appointed.
  Appeal Committee—Appointed.
  Stoppages in the Streets—Order to prevent, renewed.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  4.19 p.m.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I beg to move to resolve that whenever during the present Session of Parliament the House stands adjourned, and it appears to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor (or, if the Lord Chancellor is absent, to the satisfaction of the Lord Chairman of Committees after consultation with Her Majesty's Government) that the public interest requires that the House should meet at any earlier time during such adjournment, the Lord Chancellor or the Lord Chairman of Committees, as the case may be, may give notice to the Peers that he is so satisfied, and thereupon the House shall meet at the time stated in such Notice, and shall transact its business as if it had been duly adjourned to that time.
  Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

  PROTECTION OF BIRDS BILL [H.L.]
  VISCOUNT TEMPLEWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law relating to the protection of birds. I understand that the Bill will be circulated immediately, and sup-
  26
  posing your Lordships are good enough to give a First Reading to it to-day, I should propose to have the Second Reading this day fortnight, November 17. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Viscount Templewood.)
  On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.
  House adjourned at twenty minutes past four o'clock.