HL Deb 19 May 1953 vol 182 cc593-9

2.43 p.m.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Carrington.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]

Clauses 1 to 9 agreed to.

Clause 10 [Compensation]:

VISCOUNT MAUGHAM moved, in subsection (1), after "making" to insert: provision for the hearing and settlement of claims for compensation by interests affected and in case of need providing how much of the compensation is to be treated as capital and how much as income and for the proper distribution of the compensation between interests affected and.

The noble and learned Viscount said: The noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simon, is unfortunately unable to be here at present. He is engaged on public business, and he has asked me to deal with this Amendment, a copy of which, in manuscript, has, I think, been handed to the Chairman of Committees. The Amendment seeks to ensure that in claims for compensation by interests affected as the result of an injury within the language of the Bill provision can be made for the distribution of a lump sum where the land is either landlord and tenant owned—so that in many cases the compensation will have to be divided between them—or for cases where the land is in settlement, so that there is a tenant for life and persons entitled in remainder, where, again, the compensation paid will have to be divided between these interests.

There is, I think, no dispute between us that these divisions of the compensation money have got to be made. Those in charge of the Bill say that under the Bill as it stands they can be made; and the doubt which Lord Simon and I have expressed, and which others feel also, is whether the Bill as it stands is sufficiently wide to enable the divisions to be made in some way or other. The suggestion made, I understand, is that there is provision in Clause 10 which deals with the difficulty that we envisage. Clause 10 (1), which relates to compensation and Government contributions, runs as follows: The Minister shall prepare, with the approval of the Treasury, and lay before each House of Parliament, a draft of an order making such provision as appears to him, with such approval as aforesaid, to be requisite as regards"— and then the things for which the order may provide are mentioned, as follows: (a) compensation to be paid by riser boards for damage, or diminution in the value of land,"— That provision relates to the global amount of compensaton payable in respect of damage to a particular piece of land. Then at the end come the words: occurring in consequence of the exercise of powers conferred by or under this Part of this Act, or for the use of land, or the working of clay or other substances, in the exercise of such powers;… For my part I cannot find in these words anything which authorises a distribution of the amount of the compensation which is to be determined under this subsection. It relates to the amount to be paid. I am seeking to provide that the compensation shall be distributed in respect of a particular piece of land as between different interests which existed in it before the damage occurred.

What is suggested by the Amendment of my noble and learned friend Lord Simon, for which I make myself responsible, is as follows. In Clause 10, page 12, line 17 after the word "making" in the words "an order making such provision as appears to him…to be requisite" et cetera, to insert these words: provision for the hearing and settlement of claims for compensation by interests affected and in case of need providing the proper distribution of the compensation between interests affected. My noble and learned friend suggests after the words "in case of need for," this provision providing "how much of the compensation is to be treated as capital and how much as income; so that there can be no doubt that the draft of the order in question can make provision for the distribution of a sum of £x payable in respect of a particular piece of land owing to there being different interests in that land.

The question is whether the clause as it stands in the Bill is sufficiently clear to make any such addition unnecessary. I am not in the least dogmatic about this, and I do not think that my noble and learned friend, if he were here, would wish to be dogmatic, but would wish to leave it, as I do, to be determined by this House as to whether, as at present the clause runs, these words are necessary in order to put an end to any doubts on that matter. If there is a real doubt, it is certainly desirable that it should be disposed of either by the Bill or by the proposed order; and, as I understand it, the Government are desirous that there shall be no delay in the bringing into force of the Act. Certainly, I for my part would not wish any such delay to take place. All I am saying is that there is at present a doubt in the minds of people like my noble and learned friend, who is not here to explain it for himself, and myself, who have an unrivalled experience in arguing cases of this kind in the High Courts extending over more years than we like to remember. We suggest that, having regard to our doubt, it would be just as well to put in some words which do not in the least injuriously affect the working of the Act as it is proposed to take effect by the Government, and they will be words removing the doubt which we submit, with all respect to the House, does exist. In those circumstances I beg, to move this Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 12, line 17, after ("making") insert ("provision for the hearing and settlement of claims for compensation by interests affected and in the case of need providing how much of the compensation is to be treated as capital and how much as income and for the proper distribution of the compensation between interests affected and").—(Viscount Maugham.)

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES

I am rather uncertain whether I have exactly the words that the noble and learned Viscount wishes to insert. As I understand it—he will correct me if I am wrong—the Amendment proposed is:

"Page 12, Clause 10, line 17, after the word 'making' insert the words 'provision for the hearing and settlement of claims for compensation by interests affected in case of need providing the proper distribution of the compensation between interests affected, and how much of the compensation is to be treated as capital and how much as income'."

VISCOUNT MAUGHAM

No. The suggestion is that the words added in the handwriting of my noble and learned friend should come after the words "in case of need providing."

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES

I see. Then the words that I have already read out come after the word "making," but I had better read the Amendment again: After the word 'making,' insert 'provision for the hearing and settlement of claims for compensation by interests affected and in case of need providing how much of the compensation is to be treated as capital and how much as income', and so on. Is that right?

EARL JOWITT

What does that mean?

VISCOUNT MAUGHAM

Yes, I think that is right.

LORD CARRINGTON

I regret to say that, in whichever way the noble Earl, the Lord Chairman of Committees, reads out the Amendment, I am unable to accept it. Subsection (1) of Clause 10, as it now stands, reads: The Minister shall prepare, with the approval of the Treasury, and lay before each House of Parliament, a draft of an order making such provision as appears to him, and so on. Under that subsection as it now stands, the Minister can do all those things which the noble and learned Viscount wishes to insert in the Bill: in other words, all those particular provisions which the noble and learned Viscount has in his Amendment can be inserted in the draft order which is to be laid before your Lordships' House. As regards the first part of the noble and learned Viscount's Amendment, I think I can give him an assurance that that will be catered for in the order. The sort of words which might be used are Any person disturbed by the doing of the work in his enjoyment of the land on which the work was done or having an estate, or interest in any land, and so on. That, I think, would cover the first part of the noble and learned Viscount's Amendment.

As regards the second part of the Amendment, I am told that it would be unusual to adopt the course which the noble and learned Viscount suggests and that, in comparable legislation, there is no attempt made to provide in detail for the distribution of sums of money. Therefore, I cannot give him any undertaking of any kind that we shall do that in the order which is laid before your Lordships' House. But it seems to me that, if the noble and learned Viscount is not satisfied with the order when it comes before this House, he might take the matter up again then, when we should have the benefit of the presence of the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, who would help me out of my difficulties. I ask the noble and learned Viscount not to press this Amendment this afternoon, because it seems to me that we should get this Bill passed through its remaining stages, and that the latter half of it—the compensation provisions, and so on—should come into force as soon as possible. For those reasons, I am afraid that I cannot accept the noble and learned Viscount's Amendment.

VISCOUNT MAUGHAM

I quite see the force of the argument that has been put before your Lordships. It is is not possible, of course, for any of us to discuss on the present occasion the form of the order, because the order is not before us; and it is difficult to discuss something which we cannot see. As I understand it, my noble friend agrees that we can discuss the order when it is laid before the House, and we shall be able also to discuss part, at least, of the proposals which I am seeking to insert on the present occasion. But I hope that we shall also be entitled to urge that the order shall plainly provide in some way or other for the distribution of a sum in regard to which various people have rights, otherwise there will be no method of ascertaining how the distribution is to be made. Take, for instance, the case of a tenant from year to year of the property in question. He will be the man in possession, and I understand that the view of the Government is that prima facie he is the man who makes the claim. But surely a tenant from year to year is not entitled to take the whole of the claim if the damage done to the land will last in perpetuity. As that has got to be ascertained somehow, it will be, I assume, for this and the other House to determine the mode in which the distribution is to be undertaken. At any rate, in the belief that it is left open for somebody to raise that point when the order comes before the House, I am prepared to accept the noble Lord's suggestion and to withdraw my Amendment to-day.

LORD CARRINGTON

I do not want to mislead my noble and learned friend. Of course, he may raise any point that he likes when the draft order comes up for the approval of your Lordships. But I should be misleading him if I led him to understand that there would in any probability be in the order any provision for the detailed distribution of compensation. I ant told that it would not be at all the usual practice to have that in an order. In the normal course, if there is any dispute about distribution the matter would go to the courts. That is what I am told. But if my noble and learned friend likes to raise the matter again when the draft order comes before the House and when the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, is here, I know that my noble and learned friend will be only too happy to answer him.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 10 agreed to.

Remaining clauses and Schedule agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment.

Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of May 13):

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read 3a.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Carrington.)

LORD LEATHERS

My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty to signify to the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Coastal Flooding (Emergency Provisions) Bill, gives Her consent, so far as Her Majesty's interest is concerned on behalf of the Crown, that the House may do therein as they shall think fit.

On Question Bill read 3a, and passed.

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