VISCOUNT ELIBANKhad given notice of two Questions concerning trade with China. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The two Questions were as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, having regard to the importance of the Chinese market to British trade and commerce, particularly in the future, when China's industrialisation plans get properly under way, and to the statement of the President of the Board of Trade in June, 1951—in relation to the United Nations resolution on the embargo of arms, armaments and strategic materials to China—that licences for goods not considered to he of military or strategic importance to China would be granted freely, subject to availabilities and prior claims on our resources, they can say (1) whether the embargo list is under constant review in order to ensure that it does not contain items which are not "of substantial military or strategical importance" and which may be entering China from Japan, Western Germany or Sweden, and (2) whether, if instances are brought to their notice in which it is suggested that items which are not "of substantial military or strategical importance" are included in the embargo list, or which may be entering China from other sources, they will give consideration to the elimination of such items from the list.
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can say which member nations of the United Nations are putting into operation the resolution 242 on the embargo of arms, armaments and strategic materials to China which was adopted on 18th May, 1951, and whether there is consultation between those nations as to what items properly come under the resolution and should be included in their respective embargo lists.]
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I think it will be for the convenience of the House if, with the noble Viscount's permission, I answer both of his Questions together. While Her Majesty's Government share the noble Viscount's views as to the potential importance of the Chinese market to British trade and commerce, they are obliged, in accordance with the Unites Nations resolution of May 18, 1951, to take all possible steps to prevent the export to China of any goods which would be of military and strategic importance to the Chinese forces in Korea. The United States and Canada maintain an almost complete embargo on exports to China. Some 40 other nations have said that they are implementing the resolution, and others have indicated that they do not export strategic materials to China. Only the Soviet bloc countries have refused their support.
The method by which the resolution was to be implemented was left to the discretion of each member nation. Her Majesty's Government have kept strictly to the terms of the resolution, and their published embargo list has been under constant review and discussion, both in this country and with other friendly countries, especially all the major exporting countries concerned. Most of these embargo the majority of items on it, and Her Majesty's Government are actively discussing the remaining items to achieve unanimity so that the United Nations policy can be fully effective. Her Majesty's Government would be prepared to consider, in consultation with other nations, the addition or deletion of any item if strategic considerations warranted such action. They would be prepared to consider in this context any suggestions the noble Viscount may care to submit.
VISCOUNT ELIBANKMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his comprehensive Answer, may I ask him whether he is aware that what I am 243 anxious to do is to obtain fair play for British industry in this matter of the export of non-strategic materials to China, in the face of what is admittedly fierce and growing competition? It is rather difficult to keep the whole of the Answer of the noble Lord in one's head, but I should like to ask him whether the Government would be prepared to take steps to set up a committee—a course which is not without precedent in similar cases—either to assist the Board of Trade Export Licensing Department in their difficult tasks, or to constitute an appeal court for British industry which felt that it was not getting satisfaction under these export licences. I commend that to the serious consideration of Her Majesty's Government. There are, as I say, precedents, but I may not discuss them. The third thing is—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order! Order!
VISCOUNT ELIBANKI am asking questions; I am not making a speech—nothing of the sort. The third thing I should like to ask the noble Lord is this: Is it not a rather extraordinary position with which this country is faced, that while a certain number of the member nations of the United Nations get into a boat a certain number stay out; and that when they do all get into the boat they find themselves rowing in different directions?
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I hesitate to interrupt the noble Viscount, but he is really abusing the system of Question and Answer. He may put every alternative sentence in the form of a question, but he is making a speech.
VISCOUNT ELIBANKWith great respect to the noble Marquess, naturally I wish to observe the rules of the House—I am now speaking to the question of order which he raised. I have prefaced every one of my remarks with an interrogation.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYBut they were all in the nature of what is generally known as rhetorical questions.
VISCOUNT ELIBANKIn the dictionary definition they are still questions. I have put my questions, and I ask the earnest consideration of the noble 244 Marquess himself to the question which I have put with regard to this appeals court. Because is he not aware of the fact that, in the case of the sanctions on Italy, of which, if I recollect rightly, he was one of the originators, the only sufferer was this country?
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThe noble Viscount is now asking a completely different question. If he would put that down on the Paper, and if it is passed by the Table, he will receive an answer.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEMay I ask a specific question? The noble Marquess will remember that the noble Lord took the two original Questions together, a course which gives a little more latitude to the cross-examiners. My question is this: Is it not a fact that an order for chemicals worth a very large sum was offered to the British chemical industry; that they were forbidden by the Board of Trade to send the goods abroad, and that the order was thereupon taken up by a German firm called Farbenwerke Hoechst, and, I believe, is now in process of execution? This is a case in point, and I ask whether the noble Lord is aware of it and what answer he can give.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I am aware of the case in point which the noble Viscount has mentioned. Perhaps I might answer him by reminding him of this. The International Red Cross may not operate in China and, therefore, are not in a position to send supplies. A limited quantity is allowed to be sent through normal commercial channels for essential civilian purposes. That, so far as we are concerned, completes the picture of the situation with regard to chemical supplies. Unfortunately, many other countries do not carry out their part of the bargain with the same scrupulous accuracy as we do. That has been the cause of much of the trouble.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEThe noble Lord has said that every effort is being made to unify the practice. British firms were refused permission to execute an order for £500,000 worth of chemicals, and the order was taken up by the West German chemical manufacturers.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, may I ask whether the Government have arrived at any decision on the order from China 245 for 10,000 tons of tinplate? I believe that that order represents something like £500,000. Is the noble Lord not aware that if we do not take this up—I am not saying we should; it is for the Government to decide—undoubtedly some other country, such as that which my noble friend mentioned, will do so?
§ LORD BARNBYIs the noble Lord referring to the China recognised by the United States, or to the China recognised by the United Kingdom?
§ LORD OGMOREI am referring to the order from the Chinese Government in control of China, and not the Government in control of one island off the coast of China.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, this has developed into an interesting debate, but it does not seem to arise directly out of the Questions put to me by the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank. If noble Lords would be good enough to put these questions specifically on the Order Paper I will do my best to produce specific answers. But there are many other individual problems on exactly the same lines as the two which have been mentioned, which are also causing difficulty. I do not think that at this moment I can give a specific answer.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEBut the noble Lord gave us an assurance that he was doing his best to ensure fair play for British contractors. It now appears that he knew of both the instances brought to his notice, but that in neither has he taken any action.
VISCOUNT ELIBANKMay I ask whether the noble Lord has read the Statist this week, and whether he has read a statement that
it is difficult for a businessman to see the sense in turning down an order for something which the British Government defines as 'strategic' while the Government of some industrial rival on the Continent takes the opposite view.
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Answer!
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEMay I ask a question now on the second main Question? We are assured that every effort is being made to get other countries to work in line with us. What are the relations between ourselves and Ceylon in the matter of their rice contract with China?
§ LORD OGMOREMay I also know whether it is true, as reported, that the United States are supplying China, through Japan, with goods that we are not allowed to supply?
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI really think it would be better if noble Lords were to put down specific Questions, rather than our having an absolute spate of supplementaries, some of which range rather wide of the original Questions. It is not in accordance with our usual procedure. I have no doubt that if noble Lords will put down Questions on these points they will receive an answer.