Lords Sitting of 3 March 1953

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

MOTOR-CYCLISTS' CRASH HELMETS
2.35 p.m.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how much the cancellation of the purchase tax on crash helmets for motorcyclists would cost the Exchequer, if their wearing were made compulsory.]
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I am afraid that this information is not available. I am sure the noble Lord will agree that it is not desirable to insist on the making by traders of detailed returns of sales, other than those which are essential. It is for this reason that they are not required to make separate returns of tax paid in respect of the various classes of goods in which they may deal. Therefore, I regret that I cannot give the information for which the noble Lord asks.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether Her Majesty's Government are really in favour of the use of crash helmets for motor-cyclists? May I also ask whether the Coble Lord is aware that it was found possible by Her Majesty's Government to do away with purchase tax in the case of miners' protective helmets, which are very much of the same sort of article? Could a little more attention be given to this matter?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, if I may say so, the noble Earl's question, strictly, does not arise from the answer I have given. Her Majesty's Government are in favour of the use of crash helmets, but they do not think it should be made compulsory; and Her Majesty's Government do not think that purchase tax is the decisive Factor in a
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man deciding whether he should or should not purchase a crash helmet. In reply to the noble Earl's second point, it is true that purchase tax on miners' helmets has been remitted, but experience has shown that exceptions of this sort lead to unjustifiable discrimination and successive Governments have decided not to extend them. As the noble Earl will appreciate, there is a great variety of protective clothing of one kind or another, and it is not easy to discriminate in one case and not in another.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his reply, I hope he will put before Her Majesty's Government the point of view that this is a question of life and death. I hope he will ask the Minister concerned to do something to encourage the wearing of crash helmets, in view of the tremendous loss of the lives of our best people.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that my right honourable friend will consider very carefully what he has said.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he is aware that accidents to motor cyclists are costing this country £15 millions a year and of these over 50 per cent. are due to head injuries. Could not Her Majesty's Government give the matter further consideration?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, the point the noble Earl raises is somewhat wide of the question but I am sure it will be considered.

AIRFIELDS: EFFECT ON PROPERTY VALUES
2.38 p.m.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will devise some means to provide for the compensation of persons whose property is injuriously affected by the building of aerodromes for use by heavy jet-propelled machines, for loss of amenities, depreciation in the value of their property so affected, and other like injury.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY): My Lords, I fully appreciate the difficulties of the householders whom the noble Lord has in mind: they have my fullest sympathy. The principles by which the State is bound in this respect do not, I fear, permit compensation of the kind proposed by the noble Lord. I am sure the noble Lord will appreciate that, however much the general idea of compensation may appeal to him, the practical reasons which have guided the policy of this and of previous Governments in this respect are beyond dispute. The implications of such a scheme would be limitless. I can only add that it is the constant aim of the Royal Air Force, and of the other Departments concerned with the operation of jet aircraft, to minimise their unpleasant effect on the public as a whole.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, I thank my noble and gallant friend for the very comprehensive reply he has made to my Question. I am gratified to hear that when the situation becomes quite intolerable in certain places the matter will be further considered.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, before we leave this question, may I ask the noble and gallant Lord whether he considers his reply will cover a case such as the following, which is within my knowledge? A market gardener, who has a great deal of glass on which his living depends, had the whole of it smashed by the starting up of one jet aeroplane. I should like to ask whether that kind of injury is to be met with what I might almost call perfunctory regret?
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: My Lords, in reply to the supplementary question addressed to me by the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, I should not like the House to believe that I can reconsider the matter of principle which I have enunciated. In reply to the question asked by
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the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, naturally if he will put down a Question on the Order Paper, or write to me privately, I will certainly consider it and give him a reply.
LORD SALTOUN: I thank the noble Lord very much.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, before leaving this Question, may I ask the noble and gallant Lord, having regard to the serious menace to the public of the increase in the noise of jet aircraft, and in view of the experiments which I know the noble Lord's Department and other Departments are carrying out on the question of noise, by building walls, and so on, whether the noble Lord will consider publishing in a few months' time, in the form of a memorandum or White Paper or in some other form, the results of those experiments? I am sure that such a progress report would be of wide public interest.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: My Lords, it may be that the noble Lord has in mind certain experiments which are going on at London Airport in relation to the Comet aircraft. This is not directly a matter within the ambit of my responsibilities, but I will certainly make inquiries. I can give no assurance as to whether it will be possible for anything to be published, but I will bring the remarks of the noble Lord to the attention of my right honourable friend the Minister of Civil Aviation, and possibly to the Minister of Supply, to see whether anything can be done. I must emphasise, however, that I am afraid that, much as we should like to obviate all this nuisance, it is a concomitant of the production of the jet engine.

TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.

DISTRIBUTION OF INDUSTRY (DEVELOPMENT AREAS) ORDER, 1953
2.45 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I rise to move the approval of an Order made by my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade on January 22 of this year, and reported to your Lordships' House from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday, February 11. This Order was made under Section 7 of the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945, and requires the approval of each House of Parliament. Speaking quite generally, the purpose of this Order is to add one more area, a small area about thirty miles north of Manchester, to the eight areas which have already been designated as special areas under the Distribution of Industry Acts. It is an important Order, and as this matter has not been discussed in your Lordships' House for two or three years, I feel it my duty to try and explain the purpose of this Order to your Lordships as best I can.
It will probably be remembered that under the original Distribution of Industry Act, which was passed in 1945, four areas were scheduled as development areas. Those areas were the North-Eastern, the West Cumberland, the South Wales and Monmouthshire—about which we may hear more later this afternoon—and the Scottish development areas. Those four areas were scheduled in the Act itself. From the time of the passing of the Act to the end of 1952 the following areas have been added: Wrexham, South Lancashire, Merseyside and the Highlands. Briefly, the improvements and benefits that can be appreciated under the Acts are as follows. The most important powers, I should imagine, are those which enable the Board of Trade to build factories for letting to industrialists, and those which enable the Treasury to make loans to firms already established or proposing to set up new factories in a development area. A few statistics of what has already been done may not be without interest to your Lordships. Up to and including the end of 1952, 1,650 new factories and extensions, of a total area of nearly 52 million square feet, have been completed in the development areas which I have just mentioned. Of these, the building of about 650 projects,
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of a total area of over 20 million square feet, was financed by Her Majesty's Government. Nearly 300,000 people are employed in new developments of all kinds undertaken since the end of the war in these development areas. Furthermore, under Section 4 of the 1945 Act, the Treasury have approved loans amounting in all to over £5 million to a number of firms.
There is one other advantage under these Acts—namely, the power given by Section 3 of the 1945 Act to make grants for basic services to the various local authorities. There has, unfortunately, been some misunderstanding concerning the policy of Her Majesty's Government about these grants to local authorities for basic services under Section 3 of the 1945 Act. I imagine that this misunderstanding has arisen from a circular issued by my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, known as Circular 54/52—and also by somewhat more familiar hostile nomenclature by those who do not fully understand it. This misunderstanding was well evidenced in a debate in another place on February 25, when it was alleged that this circular to which I have just referred meant that there was a complete ban on further grants except for prior commitments. Now the position is this. Owing to the need for economy, Her Majesty's Government have to restrict to a bare minimum any new grants made under Section 3 of the 1945 Act for improvement of basic services, although, of course, schemes of quite exceptional industrial urgency can still be considered.
I now turn to the actual area which is to be scheduled. The area is defined accurately in the Order which is before your Lordships, but, as your Lordships will see, it is an extremely difficult area to describe accurately in words. Therefore I took the liberty of having a small sketch map drawn (which I think is already in the possession of some of your Lordships), showing in detail the boundaries of this new area and its geographical relationship to the other areas and, of course, to the rest of England. Roughly speaking, the area is that portion of the north-east of Lancashire which contains Burnley, Nelson and Collie amongst its three biggest towns, and that portion of the West Riding of Yorkshire which numbers Barnoldswick amongst its

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bigger towns. It is an area which lies, as I say, roughly thirty or forty miles north of Manchester. The area covers about sixty-seven square miles.
Now I will deal with the reason why this particular area has been chosen. The statutory requirement for choosing a development area like this is set out in Section 7 of the 1945 Act. Perhaps, for convenience, I may read it to your Lordships. It is as follows:
"Where at any time it appears to the Board that the distribution of industry is such that in any area not specified in the said First Schedule"—
that is the Schedule to which I referred just now, in which four principal areas were defined—
"there is likely to be a special danger of unemployment, the Board may by order direct that the area shall be added to that Schedule."
That is the statutory authority under which the President of the Board of Trade has acted in this particular case. The area which I have just described—the new development area—is part of the traditional weaving belt of north-east Lancashire. Over 44,000 workers in the area are engaged in the textile industry; or, to put it another and, I think, more realistic way, 46 per cent. of the insured population of this area earn their daily bread in the textile industry. Almost all of these workers are employed in the weaving section of the textile industry. On an average 46 per cent. of the workers are employed in the textile industry, but in individual districts in the area the proportion is, of course, higher. The history of this area has unfortunately been a chequered one, following the chequered history of the textile industry. In the inter-war years the area suffered severe unemployment, as indeed did many other textile areas, and in the recession of last year this area was, I am sorry to say, hit particularly badly. At one time there were over 16,000 people—that is nearly 17 per cent. of the workers in the area—actually out of work.
Thus, the reasons for scheduling this area are that it is abnormally dependent on a single section of a single industry, and experience has shown that it is particularly liable to severe unemployment when that industry is badly hit by a trade recession. It is, I am very happy to say, true that unemployment in this area has fallen. In January of this year
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it was just over 3,000, which is a rate of about 3.3 per cent. of the insured population. But in deciding whether to schedule an area one does not of necessity consider the unemployment figures at any particular moment of time. Rather the reason is, as I wish to emphasise, the abnormal dependency on a single section of a single industry; and a third and subsidiary reason is the fact that this area happens to be geographically somewhat remote and not over well served by public transport.
Looking over a wider field at the whole question of development areas, one finds there is one point which has to be borne in mind. When this area was considered, my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade looked over a very wide field and considered the claims of a number of different areas, and I may here add that the claims from other areas were numerous. But as my right honourable friend said in his statement on October 29, 1952, in another place (OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 505, col. 1939):
"…what is given to any new Development Area is, in fact, at the expense of the rest of the country; there is not an endless reserve of special advantages to be extended, and, if those advantages are spread too widely, they become meaningless."
In those words, with which I am certain your Lordships will agree, my right honourable friend was echoing the words of one of his distinguished predecessors, Sir Stafford Cripps, when he said in another place on March 18, 1946 (OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 420, col. 1574):
"The House will appreciate that it would be idle to try and extend the Development Areas over the whole country as that would mean cutting down the value of the service which can be given to particular areas if we made it too wide in its cover."
I should add that my right honourable friend has had a very large number of consultations, not only, as he is statutorily bound to do, with the local authorities within the area directly concerned, but also with a large number of individuals, bodies and organisations who are directly or indirectly concerned or whose interests might be affected.
I want to end by emphasising this particular point. The distribution of industry—which is the object of these orders and of this legislation—as a policy, is only one part of the Government's policy of securing full employment. The

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first aim of Her Majesty's Government must be to place our whole economic life as a trading nation on a sound basis. The economic problems of the country will not be solved merely by scheduling new or further areas. When Her Majesty's Government assumed office they had to take immediate measures to deal with a serious balance of payments crisis and a serious inflationary situation. Unless the country's economy was put on a sound basis this distribution of industry policy which we are discussing this afternoon would have been completely ineffective. The mere formal act of scheduling a new area does not, of course, mean that new factories will be established overnight; nor does it mean that vastly increased prosperity will break with the next dawn. Nor, indeed, have the Government power to direct industry to a particular place or site, but every effort is being made by my right honourable friend, and by the Board of Trade, to steer new industry to this area where it can be offered the special advantages of the Distribution of Industry Acts. I am happy to say that in that respect my right honourable friend has received a considerable number of inquiries although, of course, it would be premature to discuss the details at the moment. This order has met with a cordial reception in the area to which it directly applies, and I hope that I have succeeded in putting the matter sufficiently fully before your Lordships to ensure that it merits your cordial approval, too. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Distribution of Industry (Development Areas) Order, 1953, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday, February 11, be approved.—(Lord Mancroft.)
2.49 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, we on this side of your Lordships' House do not intend to register our dissatisfaction with this Order by asking your Lordships to divide, but it is only fair to say that we are dissatisfied with it—for one or two reasons. Those reasons I will give your Lordships in as brief a time as I can. First, we do not think this Order takes into consideration all the proper factors which it should. The noble Lord has said that it affects a single section of the Lancashire textile industry.
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That is quite right. But the Lancashire textile industrial belt stretches far wider than the confines of the area which is scheduled in this Order. I do not know whether Lord Mancroaft's experience stretches to the Lancashire textile industry, but that of certain noble Lords on the Government side of the House does; and they must know that when a slump hits the Lancashire textile industry, it hits every section of it—not one alone. In my view, this Order is ill-conceived, because it is likely to do—though I hope it will not—considerable harm by "milking," if I may use the term, the areas contiguous to this one. That is our first complaint: that it doesnot take into consideration the whole of the requirements of the Lancashire textile industrial belt. The next reason for complaint is on the ground that the noble Lord himself expressed, when he said that at the present time anything that is done by way of extending a development area can be done—to use his own words: I wrote them clown—only "at the expense of the rest of the country."
Now, my Lords, we on this side of the House feel that the time has arrived when we should know more of what is the overall industrial policy of Her Majesty's Government The Distribution of Industry Act, 1946, was an exceptionally good piece of legislation, which has done a tremendous amount of good in the circumstances in which it was conceived. But I believe that the time has now arrived when the whole of this country has got to be considered as a development area. This kind of treatment, good as it was as a palliative, as first aid, immediately after the war, is not going to be—as I think Her Majesty's Government will be the first to admit—any solution to the long-term industrial difficulty of this country, a difficulty which we have got to face during and within the next two or three years.
My noble friend Lord Ogmore, later on this afternoon, will be drawing your Lordships' attention to a serious crisis which has happened in another development area—that of South Wales. Is it not a strange thing that within recent history, even within the last twelve months, we were clamouring for steel, and that our exports of certain commodities were being cut down for want of steel, and of the particular type of steel

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which is now in over-supply in South Wales? We now see, in this area and that, sporadic outbursts of unemployment. Is it not a tragedy that we have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that one of our greatest export industries, the motor vehicle industry, is scheduling for next year a production of only 50 per cent. of its capacity? Very soon, perhaps, we shall have an outcry to schedule Birmingham as a development area.
However, a great deal can be done for other parts of the country without a Development of Industry Order. I repeat the words of the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, that what is done in this direction to-day is done "at the expense of other areas." There are plenty of areas in this country which are dependent upon one single industry, but which would not call for scheduling under the Distribution of Industry Act. I cite one to which I drew your Lordships' attention a little while ago, Southampton—the blitzed town of Southampton, the gateway of this Empire, starved of capital investment, in a year, this Coronation Year, in which we are hoping to have many thousands of tourists coming into this country; starved because there is no money to enable the rehabilitation of Southampton to take place. I am grateful to the noble Lord. Lord Lloyd, who came down with me, visited the town and viewed the area. And thanks to his good offices, and the good offices of his right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, an improvement has been made. The improvement, however, is not nearly enough. Here is an area which is going down and down because it cannot cope in the proper way with the amount of traffic that is coming in.
These are areas which, although they are dependent upon single industries, will never be scheduled under a Distribution of Industry Order. I would ask the noble Lord to consider this problem seriously. I repeat, once again, that anything that is done for any area scheduled under the Distribution of Industry Act to-day can be only at the expense of some other area, such as Southampton; and there are plenty of others that I could name. What I am afraid of—and I choose my words—is that the scheduling of these areas to-day will be done more in response to political pressure than should
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be the case. That is a very sad thing. Members of Parliament cannot be blamed for it: they have to look after the interests of their constituents. And one has only to read the Report of the debate on this Order in another place to see how well and truly that function was carried out. Her Majesty's Government must withstand these political pressures. They must look at this problem as a whole. Therefore, at some time we intend to ask the House to debate the whole subject of the Government's industrial policy for this country, apart from first aid; what they are going to do to try to treat the festering sores of these pockets of unemployment. It is no good trying to treat them by piecemeal measures such as the one that is before the House this afternoon.
I do not intend to widen this debate any more. What we say, for what it is worth, is that we do not like this Order, because it will not fulfil the noble Lord's hopes. It may be detrimental to those areas in the North East of Lancashire immediately outside this area. This area seeps into part of Yorkshire, which is not touched by the textile industry. Skipton is more of an engineering centre than a textile centre, I believe. It is not worth while our debating the point today, but, as I say, we shall at some future date put on the Order Paper a Motion to discuss the whole of the Government's policy on this matter. In the interim, I would express the hope that the noble Lord will persuade his right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade, and Her Majesty's Government, to have some thought, outside the Distribution of Industry Act and the scheduling of particular development areas, for those many areas which are struggling to rehabilitate themselves after the devastation of the war and which are deserving of far more consideration than they are receiving to-day.
3.10 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, when the noble Lord who has just sat down started his speech, he said that he had five reasons why he did not like this particular Order. I am not sure that I heard one effective reason, but I certainly did not hear five. I heard him say that the scheduling of these areas was often done as a result of political pressure, which I gather he rather

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deplored. I should imagine that this Order does not have its origin in political pressure, because I fancy that not the most popular Member of another place with Her Majesty's Government is the honourable Member for Nelson and Colne. Moreover, the noble Lord opposite seemed to be doing a little bit of political pressure himself. We all know his valuable connection with Southampton, but I hardly think that Southampton itself would claim to come in as a development area. One of the main difficulties about Southampton is that the local authority there had an ambitious development plan under which they proposed to buy up practically all the blitzed area of Southampton and attempt to develop it. They then thought that they would let it to the shopkeepers and others. That plan did not work out and has now been abandoned, as I understand, or largely abandoned; but I hope that normal development will go on in Southampton.
It seems to me that, when an area of this county such as that which we are discussing to-day has had an unfortunate period of unemployment, and rests entirely on one specific industry, there is a case for making it into a development area. That, as I understand, is what is being done by this Order. But, obviously, the scheduling of an area is not a cure for the ills of this country as a whole. It is only a remedy to be applied to particular areas. And, of course, it is true that, if you spread the butter too far, the butter is so thin on the toast that there is no object in putting it there at all. So it becomes necessary to restrict the areas which are scheduled as development areas.
I think it is remarkable that so far in the last year or two, this country has stood up to the vast competition which its industries are now suffering from overseas. That is a credit to our industrialists, management and workers alike. Everybody has to realise that, with Japan back on the world markets, and Germany back on the world markets and producing a number of things more cheaply than we do, we are now coming into a very competitive world, and that the sellers' market has now virtually ceased. That is the lesson which not only the Government but everybody, management and workers, engaged in industry has to
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learn: that unless we can get our goods produced, either by better methods or by harder work, more cheaply than those of our competitors abroad, we in this country are in for a very difficult time. After all, there is no reason why the consumers overseas should buy our goods just because we happen to have been one of the main peoples to win the last war. We cannot expect that good will to last for ever, and we must compete in what is going to be a very competitive world. The only way in which the Government can help is by trying to put a restraining hand on the increase of prices generally in this country, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is trying to do, and by making such bargains as they can, such tariff arrangements, perhaps, as they can, with countries overseas, so that where we are buying their goods in large quantities they will take ours.
When I had the honour of being in Canada last autumn, I found there rather a lack of appreciation of the fact which many of us tried to impress on our Canadian friends, that if they would not take our manufactured goods we could not go on taking their agricultural goods in such quantities as we had taken them before the war. I saw an announcement yesterday, or the day before, in one of the newspapers. I think it was a statement made in another place in answer to a Question, that we could not take any Canadian canned salmon this year. That used to be a very popular dish. In the days when I went to Territorial camps my men always liked for their supper Canadian canned salmon. It was the most popular dish one could provide for summer in the men's messes. We cannot get it now, for the simple reason that unfortunately too few Canadians are buying the goods that we could send to them. It may be, in some cases, our fault that we do not provide sufficient services to follow up those goods, or something of that sort; but it is no good anyone thinking that the problem which this country is facing to-day is an easy one to solve, or that it can be solved by any Government by a stroke of the pen. I am quite certain that the present Government—after all, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Foreign Secretary are doing something of the kind this coming week in Washington—are pursuing this vital matter in as good a way as any body of men could do.
3.18 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I should like to say, in two or three words, that we welcome this Order. I have had some connection for some considerable number of years with the Lancashire cotton industry, and deep thought has convinced me that it can never be a completely steady industry, from the very nature of the things it turns out. People do not go regularly to buy clothes in any country in the world. They go at seasons when they feel like it, or they go on special occasions, such as marriages and so on. It is not a regular and completely steady trade. Therefore, any area completely and absolutely dependent on this industry is extremely vulnerable. The industry itself I believe to be contracting, because the first item of industrialisation upon which any country starts is always the making of its own clothes. Therefore, I can see no future in any country, except possibly in Japan, on account of her very cheapness, for an expanding export industry in cotton goods. For that reason it is all the more important that other industries should be introduced into those areas of Lancashire which are so dependent at this moment on textiles. For that reason, I support this Order.
3.20 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I am sorry that I have not been able to awaken much enthusiasm for this Order amongst noble Lords opposite. I think that much of the general argument advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, in his very reasonable criticism has already been answered by my noble friend Lord Llewellin, in the excellent speech to which we have just listened. There are one or two points which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, made with which I should like shortly to deal. The first is the question of political pressure. The noble Lord felt that the Government of the day (perhaps even the Government of this day) would be, or might be, or had been, subject to political pressure in regard to any particular area. With regard to this little area, thirty miles north of Manchester, all I can say is this. If my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade had been subject to any political pressure, he would naturally have made it a very much bigger area—almost as big as the one the noble Lord
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himself rather suggested. I should like to draw the noble Lord's attention to one fact, in particular, with reference to the doubts in his mind as to the correctness with which this actual area had been selected. My right honourable friend, in interpreting the statutory requirements laid upon him by Section 7 (2) of the Act, had regard to the criteria in paragraph 86 of the late Administration's White Paper on the Distribution of Industry, published in 1948. So there has been no change in that respect. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, made another interesting point. He talked of the neighbouring areas being harmed by the selection of one specific area such as that which we are discussing to-day. Let me give one example to indicate that experience shows us that these development areas do not injure their neighbours. There are already two development areas in Lancashire, but 67 per cent. of the factories and extensions built in the North West region since the end of the war are outside those development areas.
I will detain your Lordships no longer. If I may say so, with respect, many of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, made, interesting though they were, were a little wider than the field covered in this Order. I know that at one time we were considering through the usual channels whether or not we should follow the example of another place and debate the whole subject. For domestic reasons, that did not prove possible, but the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has given us notice to-day that in due course he will raise the whole matter; and that, perhaps, might be a more suitable occasion to deal with the whole question of development areas and Her Majesty's Government's industrial policy. I hope then that I shall be allowed another attempt to convince the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, not only that this particular Order is right but that the whole of Her Majesty's Government's policy with regard to development areas is completely right.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

THERAPEUTIC SUBSTANCES (PREVENTION OF MISUSE) BILL [H.L.]
3.24 p.m.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

WEST WALES TINPLATE INDUSTRY
3.25 p.m.
LORD OGMORE LORD OGMORE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any plans for dealing urgently with the serious situation that has arisen in the tinplate industry in West Wales. The noble Lore said: My Lords, I beg to ask Her Majesty's Government the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. If I may indicate some of the background to the Question, I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that on Saturday last twelve tinplate works in the West Wales area—that is, the area from Port Talbot to Llanelly, were closed down. Production in these old-type works of the Steel Company of Wales, Limited, and Richard Thomas and Baldwin, Limited, has stopped. It may be that production has stopped for a month; it may be that it has stopped for longer. During 1952 there were 180 old-type mills in production in this area. It seems as if all are doomed, maybe not in the immediate future, but certainly within the next few years.
The Press has carried a number of articles, stories and reports pointing out the serious situation. There have been interesting articles in The Times, the Manchester Guardian and in the Western Mail. From those reports, and from other information which I have been able to gather, it is obvious that the men concerned are not to be dismissed, at all events immediately. According to their grade, they will receive a maximum of thirty shillings a day, or 90 per cent. of their wages, on the basis of a four-day week. On the other two days they may sign on at the local labour exchange. For some time past production has been on a four-day week basis. During December the companies which I have mentioned, decided permanently to close some of the old-type mills because current demand for tinplate was not keeping pace with the increase in production from the coming into production of the new type mill at Trostre. So ten tinplate works in West Wales, employing some 1,500 men, were closed permanently at about the end of last year. I am glad to say that most of the younger men have found other employment. Of the total labour force employed in tinplate in this area, amounting to some 14,000 men, about
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850 are foreign workers—that is Poles Italian and others.
As your Lordships know, the tinplate process is a very important one in industry. Steel is the raw material of tinplate. The steel works feed the plate mills: the steel comes out—or it used to come out in the old days; what it does in these modern workings I am not sure—in the form of rails; passes through rollers and is stamped into eight thicknesses; it passes again through a machine. Then, after various processes, the plate appears in its finished form; that is, a thin steel sheet covered with a small amount of tin—one pound of tin to fifty-six steel sheets. That is the life history of the sardine tin. Before it appears in its final form the metal has gone through all those processes, finally emerging, as I say, as a very thin steel sheet covered with tin. In the old mills it was hard work and sweat—a sort of Dantesque scene of clanging and sizzling metal. In the new mills everything is as smooth, mechanical, aseptic and dull as a creamery—but that is the price we pay for progress.
According to the companies concerned, and in particular Mr. Lever, who I understand is the chairman of the companies, the reason for closing down is that the current demand for tinplate has not kept pace with production, even after the closing down of the ten mills which I mentioned a moment ago. In 1952, the Welsh tinplate industry produced 880,000 tons, compared with 741,999 tons in 1951 and 750,197 tons in 1950. So it was coming up to the peak pre-war output of 955,034 tons in 1937. Although industrial and commercial concerns generally had laid in stocks, it was still thought that they would want to purchase tinplate at a greater rate than they have in fact done. They have not made the demands on the tinplate companies that were anticipated. So that the companies have still a considerable volume of tinplate in hand. They had a considerable volume in hand in December last, when it was decided to continue production in those mills which had not been closed down, in the hope that the growth in demand would increase.
Now the companies say they have been grievously disappointed at the rate at which orders have been coming in. The hand mills themselves are carrying heavy stocks of unsold and unordered plate.

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To-day, the stock of tinplate is about 1,000,000 boxes, and the hand mills have been turning out tinplate at the rate of 50,000 boxes a week. Restrictions on the use of tinplate had led users in the past to maintain considerable stocks, and the opening of the new type mill at Trostre, the removal of control of user in Great Britain, and the consequent improved position in supply has not encouraged firms generally to make larger purchases than they did before. The price is still controlled in domestic, but not in foreign, markets. Trostre, the new mill, will soon have an annual output of from 350,000 to 400,000 tons of tinplate. Ebbw Vale has an output of 250,000 tons. I understand that the new mill at Velindre will have an output of something like 400,000 tons. Altogether, as your Lordships can see, adding up those three, we get a volume in the aggregate of something like 1,050,000 tons as against a production last year of 880,000 tons. So these new mills are able to provide a very large amount of the tinplate required in this country to-day.
An additional difficulty is that the foreign buyers, so the companies say, are now insisting on the strip mill product—that is the new mill product. It is impossible to sell abroad the hand mill product—that is the old mill product—and it is only with great difficulty that it can be sold at home. Hand mills, of course, cannot compete in uniformity of plate or speed of process with the new mills. The Manchester Guardian gave some rather interesting figures to illustrate this point in an article which was published yesterday. It was stated in that article that Trostre produces 140,000 boxes of tinplate by the labour of 1,200 men, as compared with 16,000 boxes turned out at an old hand plant like Kings Dock, Swansea, by just under 1,000 men. If those figures are right—and I have no reason to suppose they are not, for the Manchester Guardian is a very reputable paper—they show what a great difference there is in the labour force needed to turn out the required amount of tinplate at the new works as compared with the old. Trostre, which is near Llanelly, Margam and the older but still modern works at Ebbw Vale, and the projected works at Velindre, are the new order. They mean the end of
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the old hand-operated order. I understand from the Secretary of State, speaking in another place, that when Velindre comes into operation at least another 5,000 men will be put out of employment.
Since 1945, shortage of tinplate has led foreign countries to set up tinplate works in their own countries. In this connection an interesting article, written by Professor Minchington of University College, Swansea, appeared in the Western Mail Commercial and Industrial Review. In the course of it, he said that the replacement of the pack mill by the strip mill has increased the capital required but lessened the need for skilled labour. Therefore, it has enabled foreign countries to provide labour for strip mills much more easily than they could have provided it for the old style hand mills. That is not a very comforting theory, but I have no doubt that it sounds sensible. In the United States, nearly a million tons of new capacity came into production in 1952, and the United States has set a target for 1955 of 3,600,000 tons, the figure for 1952 being 2,560,000 tons. I was surprised to learn from this article by Professor Minchington, that quite a number of countries which one had not supposed had anything to do with heavy industry at all seem to have gone in for tinplate mills in the last few years—countries within the Commonwealth and without. Australia has become quite a big maker of tinplate.
Any drastic innovation must have a great effect, not only in industry but also on the community. A hundred years ago this was an area of great beauty. The Vale of Neath, the Gower Peninsula, and many other parts were wild, lonely and beautiful. Before the war, I used regularly to shoot on the moors and the sand dunes—and very lonely and wild they were then—at the spot where the great Margam Works now stands. A hundred years ago this was an agricultural and pastoral area. It became an industrial area because of the finding of coal and of the proximity of the ports. From here came many products which have helped this country enormously, through two wars and in peace time, to maintain its position in the world as a great industrial power. Among those products have been iron and steel, tinplate, zinc and other valuable basic materials. All those things have been produced in this area.
But there is a sociological aspect to this matter which I want to bring to the notice of your Lordships as strongly as I can. With this industrialisation, little hamlets became villages and villages became towns. They became towns to serve the new workers. Houses were built, shops were opened, municipal enterprises were created and schools were erected to serve the works scattered over the areas which I have mentioned, and those who laboured in them. What now? What of the capital poured out and the labour expended in those towns and villages? Noble Lords in every part of the House will agree. I am sure—this is not in any way a Party political matter—that we must ensure that these areas are not left derelict. I feel most strongly that this is a human, as well as an economic problem. We want, at all costs, to avoid it becoming a human tragedy. No longer is the local works the centre of village or town life. In future, they will be closed down. People who worked in them and whose fathers, and perhaps grandfathers, worked in them, will have to go by train or bus to one of these huge modern plants situated miles away. This is what it means in this area—an immense change in its social life.
I have memories, as no doubt have others of your Lordships—particularly Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, who I am glad to say is going to speak to-day—of South Wales between the two wars, particularly of the Rhondda Valley. I remember coming back from abroad at the end of 1934 and visiting the Rhondda, and being shocked at the state of affairs which I found there. Driving from one end to another of that long valley, I found its normally teeming population had dwindled away. Wheels at pitheads were still. Works were silent. Hardly a man, woman, child, dog or cat was to be seen on the streets in the middle of the day. It seemed a terrible thing to me, this decay of the community. We must avoid any repetition of it at all costs, not only in South Wales but everywhere else.
I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, is to reply on behalf of the Government. One reason why I have brought this matter before your Lordships to-day is because, for the first time in history, we now have a Minister in your Lordships' House responsible for Welsh affairs. I am sure we all welcome the fact that
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the noble Lord has devoted such a great deal of time and energy to this task and is proving satisfactory to most people who come in contact with him, if not all. Recently, the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, addressed the Swansea Business Club at Lang land Bay, and I quote from the report in the Western Mail of what the noble Lord said:
"I am certain that the great schemes of development at Margam and Trostre were essential for the survival of the South Wales steel and tinplate industry. I believe that had the late Government failed to support and encourage these developments, the whole of these industries would in time have become out of date and unable to compete with other countries."
The noble Lord, as one would expect of him, paid a pretty compliment to the predecessors of this Government. The noble Lord went on to say, in a reference to unemployment resulting from redundancy in the industries affected:
"Any temporary hardships which may be suffered to-day as a result of these great developments are nothing compared with the disaster that would have taken place if this policy had not been carried out. Not only am I certain that that policy was right but I am certain we are right to-day in the decision of the Government to encourage the erection of a new cold reduction plant at Velindre.
"When this project is finished West South Wales will be the centre of the most modern steel and tinplate industry: in the whole wide world"
The newspaper report goes on to say that Lord Lloyd said:
"Such great changes could not be accomplished without some upheaval and temporary difficulties for some people, however much it may be regretted. The question of redundancy caused by those great developments must be faced and solved. Two of the matters which would be given attention in this direction were the diversification of industry and communications in Wales."
That seems quite a statesmanlike approach. What we want to know this afternoon is how the question of redundancy is going to be faced and solved, as the noble Lord said in his speech it would be. He was a good deal more forthcoming and had greater prevision on this matter than the Government themselves.
In considering this matter, I turned to the Report on Government action in Wales for the year ended on June 30 last—which is the latest Report available from the Government. In the Report we do not see many signs of anticipation of

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the present difficulty. I looked at this Report because, after all, this matter did not come up suddenly like a summer thunderstorm. The rumblings must have been heard in the distance for months, even for a year or two. Let us see what the Government have to say about this imminent change in the tinplate industry. The only references I can find are to be found in paragraphs 68, 69 and 70. In paragraph 68, the Report says:
"Production of sheet steel and of tinplate has increased, as the figures given in the preceding table demonstrate. Here, too, the contribution of the new works at Margam and Trostre is the main factor, and maintenance or improvement of the high output will depend on a comparable production of crude steel, which in turn will need to be sustained by a continuous flow of adequate supplies of raw materials."
The Government seemed to assume that there was no question of over-production; that the danger was that they might not be able to get enough raw materials to make the amount of tinplate required. There is not much prevision about that. In paragraph 69, dealing with labour, the Report goes on to say:
"The estimated male labour force at 30th June, 1952, was 61,300, compared with 59,900 in June, 1951. Recruitment of Italian workers for the tinplate mills has continued, and about 520 are now employed in the industry."
My information is that the number of Italians employed is 880, but I will give the Government the 520—perhaps they were able to recruit the remainder during the last six months of the year. It continues:
"The labour forces at the new plants at Margam and Trostre are being steadily built up, partly by transfer from the older works."
There does not seem to be much prevision in this paragraph of the great redundance which came into existence a few months after this paragraph was presented, with the rest of the Report, to Parliament. Paragraph 70 says this:
"At the Steel Company of Wales' Margam Works the erection of a third blast furnace has been completed. The steel-making plant and the slabbing mill, hot strip mill and cold reduction mill are in operation. At Trostre the tinplate mill has been erected, and the installation of the finishing plant is nearing completion."
There is nothing much in that. So far as I can see, these are the only references in the Government's Report for Wales to the tinplate industry. Considering that this is the document we should be considering, if we were having a debate on
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the Government's performances, as they had recently in another place, I regard that as inadequate. I consider that the prevision which the Government have shown, in the references which I have read out, leaves much to be desired.
To-day in the previous debate we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, of the development areas. These used to be called "distressed" areas, but "development" areas sounded better. West Wales—I suppose West South Wales is really the correct title—is in one of these development areas. What is being done to meet this situation? That is what we should particularly like to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd. So far as I know, everyone concerned—the management, the trade unionists, the Members of Parliament, including Mr. James Griffiths, and the representatives of the Government—have all been doing their utmost to meet this serious situation. It is a question of a joint effort by all concerned, and I am sure that this will be forthcoming. I want to emphasise once more that we are concerned not merely with an industrial matter but with a social matter. At present there is a Committee sitting, under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, considering the industrial problems in South Wales, and he may be able to tell us how they propose to deal with this problem of redundancy in the tinplate industry. There is the Welsh Board of Industry, under Sir Percy Thomas, who are considering how rural crafts can be fostered in Wales, and are making inquiries in Scotland about this aspect. The Board of Trade are investigating the possibility of the export of the products of the four woollen mills. But against this there is the fact that the manufacturers of abrasive cloth in Wales are being squeezed out of the Dutch and Scandinavian markets by our former enemies, the Germans. The efforts of the local authorities in dealing with these problems are affected, I am informed, by Circular 54/52 of June, 1952, issued by the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, whereby grants for water and sewerage schemes are no longer to be made. This will imply an increase of anything from 2s. to 3s. in the £ in the rates in these areas, which will soon be pretty hard hit.
I would suggest to your Lordships that there are certain necessities to face in

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dealing with this matter. First of all, the area must be looked at as a whole—that is to say, we ought to look at South Wales and West South. Wales as an industrial area, and examine that area in relation both to the outside world and to the rest of Wales, including rural Wales. Then we must try to ascertain whether it is possible to have new uses for tinplate. I am informed that the United States and Canada have gone ahead of us in the production of canned foodstuffs for the use or housewives. It has been suggested to me that much might be done in the storage of foodstuffs, both from the point of view of national defence and to meet disasters, such as I hope will not happen very often but an example of which we have just had in the eastern part of England not far from this House. Nearly everyone to whom I have talked on this matter has instanced the communications problem. Indeed, I noticed that at that very meeting addressed by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, Mr. Aeron-Thomas, former Chairman of the Western Division of the National Coal Board, a man of enormous knowledge of industry in South Wales, said to the noble Lord:
"If you want to give us a chance to play our part, we must have proper outlets."
Road transport is vitally important to-day, and traffic cannot flow where there are bottlenecks. If there is a worse bottleneck—or series of bottlenecks—than that on the road from Llanelly to, say, Gloucester, I have still to see it, I cannot see how any industrial area can really progress with such shocking roads. I am not referring particularly to the surface of the roads, although Gloucester shire is a shocking county so far as its roads are concerned. The surface of the roads in the county of Glam organ is good, but the roads are narrow, and they wind through the industrial areas and through the small towns and villages. As I said the other day, we need three trunk roads, one from Llanelly, right along the coast skirting all the towns, to Cardiff; another from Cardiff, across the top of the valleys, to the Midlands; and a third from Cardiff, across the Severn, by a bridge built near Awst, to London, with a branch off to Bristol and the south-west country.
Finally, there is great need to bring in new industries to take the place of these old ones which are being displaced or rationalised. The Times pointed out the
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other day the need for this, but said, in effect, that we must not bring in the I exotic kind of industry, which is not natural to the locality and which would languish and wither away, whereas if it could be started in another place it would flourish. I think that was the point of my noble friend Lord Lucas in a previous debate, although I cannot mention it at length, as I should be out of order. One needs to be careful about starting in a development area industries which are not natural to the area and which might better be started in some other district. Wales and Monmouth shire Industrial Estates, Limited have been responsible for starting about 350 factories. That process must obviously continue. Everyone—including the people in West Wales, who have been most patient and understanding about this—realises that the sheet and tinplate industry must be modernised and must be ready to meet fierce international competition. Now that the buyers' market is returning, they will have to do battle with mills in the United States, Australia, India, South Africa and other countries. The process begun in 1937 in Ebbw Vale is working towards its logical conclusion. In fact, in the United States the last pack mills closed down in 1943. We must modernise, but we must not leave the community derelict; and we must ensure that the workers, especially the older ones, are not thrown on the scrap heap. We shall all be most interested in the reply of the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, and we hope that it may give some ray of hope to the people in this particular industry and area who are so badly affected.
3.53 p.m.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, let me, in the first place, express my personal thanks to my noble friend Lord Ogmore for having put this Question on the Order Paper. During the debate in another place on January 22 complaint was made that Welsh affairs were not dealt with there to the extent that they ought to be. If there is cause for complaint in that direction, there is certainly greater cause for complaint in relation to your Lordships' House. I believe this is the first debate relating to Welsh affairs which has been initiated in this House for a very long time. There are those among my fellow-countrymen who do not think

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that any amount of debating in either of the two Houses of Parliament will be very beneficial to Wales. They feel that the sooner the debating is transferred to some city in Wales, the better. They are working with enthusiasm for a Parliament for Wales, and they assure us that until that Parliament is established there discussion on any aspect of Welsh affairs in either House of Parliament will serve little purpose. I know we are inclined to look upon them as hotheads and irresponsibles, but I happen to have amongst them some of my best friends, who are far from being hotheads or irresponsibles.
I have always felt that the responsibility was ours for showing that Wales could get all that Wales required from the British Parliament. It is no use casting aspersions at these advocates of self-government for Wales, or for that matter for Scotland. We need to show that in the present British Parliament we can serve both those countries as well as, if not better than, any local Parliament could do. That is why I am so pleased that my noble friend Lord Ogmore has brought Welsh affairs before your Lordships' House, although to-day they have been brought forward in a rather limited way. We have to face up to the fact that to-day there are many forms asking for support for self-government for Wales, which are being distributed for signature throughout Wales. They are being signed by the thousand, and they will continue to be signed. Indeed, I am rather pleased that there are not many Welsh people present to-day to see the sparse attendance in your Lordships' House when dealing with Welsh affairs, or many additional thousands would sign those petitions.
I want to emphasise the terms of my noble friend's Question, and some of the words contained therein, in particular. He is asking whether Her Majesty's Government
"have any plans for dealing urgently with the serious situation."
Those are important words, and I hope that we shall to-day get an answer to them, "Yes" or "No." What puzzles me is why the consequences of this great modernisation of the steel industry were not foreseen. We in the coal industry—and my noble friend Lord Hyndley would support me in this statement—have had to consider from time to time
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modernisation of some pits in order to make them good economic units. That has often affected the smaller pits in the area. The coal those smaller pits would have acquired can be acquired better, more cheaply and more efficiently by the bigger, modernised pit. It has meant displacement of labour. But we have always tried to anticipate any displacement of labour consequent on any plan of modernisation. I cannot believe that those responsible for this major plan—this is not a small plan—did not realise that it would involve some displacement of labour; and I cannot understand why, side by side with this plan for modernisation, they did not consider introducing plans to deal with the consequences. I shall be pleased to know why it was not foreseen.
Why should these people have to undergo this anxiety and feel that they are not receiving any consideration? They believe that the only concern is for modernisation because of world conditions. Somebody is responsible for this position not having been foreseen, and I should like to know who it is. Private enterprise prides itself on its working and is continually saying "Leave it to us. We understand the difficult and complex questions associated with trade. We have experience and skill, and we can watch the fluctuations of markets. Leave it to us." Well, we have left it to them in this case. What is the result? Modernisation has taken place, and it has left thousands of the finest men and women in Britain anxious as to their fate. Is that the way to deal with a major problem? That is what has been done here.
I want to underline also what my noble friend said about the attitude of the people in the area. It is almost incredible to me that ordinary men and women should be so sane and so sound at such a time. They do not question the need for modernisation; they know it is essential, and they know that it must be done. They are quite willing that it should be done, and have made no objection. I referred to the experience of my noble friend Lord Hyndley and myself in the hectic years of the war. We had objections, we had difficulties and we had refusals to leave certain areas to go to work elsewhere. But that is not the case here. Here they are quite prepared to accept modernisation and its cones-

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quences, provided that they are not asked to bear the major burden of the reorganisation. After all, families are settled in an area near their works, their schools and their churches. A community is established, and then some big plan of reorganisation of this kind comes along and the people are to be uprooted. One can understand their feelings and their anxiety. My concern is that we should not take advantage of their willingness for this great modernisation to take place, but that we should appreciate that willingness and try and safeguard their interests.
The position would not have been so had were it not for the fact that ever since the war—especially during the last five years—there has been a bright, glowing picture painted of this area. They were told: "Do not worry. You are safe for at least five years. Do not fear unemployment or under-employment as a result of any scheme we adopt. You are all right. You need not adopt the go-slow movement to safeguard your jobs." There are those who preach the gospel that workers are so anxious not to be unemployed that they go slow. Then, after painting this glowing picture and raising the hopes of the workpeople, this happens. My noble friend referred to art article in the Manchester Guardian. I also am a reader of that paper and I read the same article. My noble friend read the statement that 140,000 boxes a week can be produced by 1,200 men, compared with the 16,000 boxes a week by 1,000 men. The special correspondent of the Manchester Guardian in Swansea has written a very fine article, and it is well worth your Lordships' time to read it. In it he says:
"…some of the tin men will have to look for other jobs. And that in South Wales to-day will be no simple matter."
Those of us who have been engaged in big industry have seen these days before. We knew that somebody had to go: but who? This was the question: "Am I to be included?" When a mine was to be closed down because of the modernisation of some big colliery in the neighbourhood, the question was: "Am I the one to be displaced?" My noble friend spoke about the human aspects. An economic problem is usually a human problem for the worker. It need not be for others, but for the worker it is always. And they are asking—"Who?"
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I know the difficulty. The right honourable gentleman who now fills the place of Minister of Welsh Affairs in another place had some words to say on this matter. He said (OFFICIAL REPORT. Commons, Vol. 510, col. 424):
"We have tried to take this counsel to heart. It is well that we should all face the fact that the carrying put of the measures required for the modernisation of the area will provide some alternative employment. Though that is not their primary object, they should afford a welcome relief during the period when insufficient alternative employment is available for the workers who become redundant before the new measures bear fruit in the growth of new industry. This is for West South Wales, a great opportunity to build a new and prosperous centre of industry, but the opportunity must be grasped quickly and courageously."
He said that following an assurance that the displacement of labour would be temporary. This word "temporary" is a word which has strange meanings. It was "temporary" before in this particular area in South Wales. "Temporary" then meant ten years. To use the word "temporary" to try to ease the situation is not fair. If it is known that there is to be displacement of a number of men here, for a number of years, it ought to be said; and at the same time it ought to be said what is intended to be done. We al] know that modernisation is essential in all industries. This country could not carry on without it, and modernisation must, of necessity, of its very essence, mean either displacement of labour to some degree or a very substantial increase in output. What earthly use would it be if firms modernised their plant and retained the same complement of workers, on the same wage bill, with no increase in output? Would that be called modernisation? Modernisation, of necessity, means the same output at a lower cost, or a bigger output at the same cost. That generally means displacement of labour-because, as a rule, in all major industries that is the biggest item of all—the cost of wages.
I will not press borne what my noble friend has pressed home so well, but I am rather anxious that we should be told something of a constructive nature. I know that the Lloyd Committee is not a plaything. It is intended to do a job of work. I know of no Minister of the Crown and no Cabinet Minister in the history of this country who has visited Wales as much as the present Minister

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for Welsh Affairs, and no younger Minister has done more than the present Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd. But visits to Wales are not enough. At this moment, Sir David Maxwell Fyfe stands very high in the estimation of the Welsh people. Lord Lloyd does not stand very low, and probably when he has paid as many visits to Wales as Sir David, he will stand as high. They are on a pedestal now—or they are getting near it—but let me tell them not to rely too much upon that fact. Their reputation will not depend on visits or on speeches, or on soothing syrup—it will depend on actual things done. The purpose of this question is to provide an opportunity for us to be told as clearly and in as effective terms as possible what plans the Government are considering to deal with the situation consequent upon this modernisation of industry in South Wales.
4.8 p.m.
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: My Lords, I had no intention of intervening in this debate this afternoon, and I will take no more than a few minutes just to make an observation before the Minister replies. First of all, I am no Welshman. My interest is that I am chairman of two or three canned goods factories who are users of tinplate in this country, and I should like to make one or two constructive suggestions to the Minister and to Her Majesty's Government. I was very impressed with Lord Ogmore's statement about the greatly increased output in the South Wales tinplate mills. When, as a user of tinplate, I heard about those developments in South Wales, I hoped that the result would be cheaper tinplate, because one of the reasons why the supply of tinplate is overtaking the demand is, if I may say so with great respect, that the cost of tinplate, and particularly tins for canning food, is too high.
The cost of labels and cartons, for instance, has been reduced by about 50 per cent. in the last twelve months. But cans for canning are still as dear as ever they were—as dear as they were during the scarcest time of the war and post-war years; and our canners are assured that there is no prospect of any reduction in the cost of tins. The canned food business to-day (I am speaking as a
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manufacturer) both in this country and for export is very quiet. Trade is bad. One of the reasons is that prices, especially in the export trade, compared with those of our foreign competitors, are too high. I urge the Government to do all they can to help this export trade and generally to encourage the canned food trade in this country; and, at the same time, to provide for a greater consumption of tinplate by telling this House and the industry what they can do to produce cheaper tinplate. In the canned fish industry we are suffering from severe competition from Scandinavian countries whose prices are lower than ours. The cost of the cans is a big factor in the whole cost. I therefore hope that something can be done to reduce the price of cans, and at the same time to encourage the English canning industry to develop.
4.12 p.m
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (LORD LLOYD): My Lords, this is a great occasion, at any rate so far as I am concerned, for it is the first time that I have risen to speak on behalf of Wales on a matter concerning Wales—though I am afraid that by the time I have finished I shall not have satisfied either of the noble Lords who have spoken on behalf of Wales. Some people have even cast doubts upon the genuineness of my "Welshness." Some have suggested that I am an ersatz article, but I would assure noble Lords that we have been there for some years; and anyway the name is right. Perhaps I should say right away to both noble Lords that there has been only one Welsh wizard, and that was Mr. (later Earl) Lloyd George. He, I believe, was known as the Welsh Wizard, but he has been dead for some time. Some of the requests put to me to-day were such that only a wizard could fulfil. The noble Lords are asking me to conjure rabbits out of a hat or to solve problems overnight. I had better start by saying that I am not going to produce any rabbits out of hats to-day, and that I cannot solve insoluble problems overnight. I am not going to pretend that I can give these noble Lords full satisfaction in all the matters they raise, but I will give them all the satisfaction I can.
As regards the history of the tinplate industry, that, I think, was fully developed by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and

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I do not want to waste your Lordships' time by going over it again. I can only say—and if I repeat anything which the noble Lord said I hope he will tell me so at once—that the problems which confront the tinplate industry to-day in South Wales arise in the main out of the great modernisation of the industry which has been and is still taking place. The erection of the great new plants such as those at Margam, Trostre aid Velindre will eventually mean the closing down of old hand works, as I think the noble Lord knows only too well, because their products can never be competitive either in price or in quality. The noble Lord himself said, and it is a fact, f understand, that more and more foreign buyers to-day are insisting upon the strip mill products and will not take anything else. I think it is a matter of general agreement, therefore, that the policy of modernisation which was supported by the late Government and is supported by ourselves was the only possible policy. It is a fact, and we must face it, that modern techniques have made the old hand works completely out of date, and they would have disappeared through the simple force of competition, even if the new plants had never been erected. It is not a fact that one may like but I believe it to be true. If the new plants had not been erected, the results for Wales would have been tragic: we should have lost the industry and we should have had nothing. So that policy was right.
The noble Lord said that I was handing a bouquet to the producers, and I am quite prepared to do so when I think they deserve one. On that occasion I was very glad to hand them that particular bouquet. Here I would pick up a remark of the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor. He said that the people in Wales said that this great modern development showed no consideration for them. I do not think that that was quite fair. As I see it, these modern developments are being carried out for the people. If it had not been for modern developments—
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: Let us get this point right. I was speaking of the displaced labour, of the displaced worker. He is the man who doubts whether this is being done for him.
LORD LLOYD: Perhaps we are at cross-purposes. The modern developments are being carried out for the people of Wales and not just for capitalists and such people as that; and it is right that that should be so. But these great changes bring great problems—I am not going to minimise them. They cannot be solved overnight. Here is another point: from the very first moment that the late Government decided to support the proposals for Trostre and Margam, it was inevitable that redundancies would be created. Both noble Lords made great play with the "lack of prevision." The noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, said that nothing had been done about this problem. I am not sure whether he was having a go at the industrialists or at myself or at somebody else.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: Not You.
LORD LLOYD: I assume that the noble Lord was attacking Her Majesty's Government through me. In return, I might ask what his Government were doing about the matter. This is far too important a matter to be the subject of Party politics, however, and I do not wish to press that. The first time that anything has been done was by the appointment of this Committee.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: I do not want to underline what was said by my noble friend Lord Ogmore, but we have here a Report, carefully prepared by somebody for the Government, a Report of Government action for the year ending June 30, 1952; and apart front the paragraphs read by my noble friend, there is not a single reference to this problem.
LORD LLOYD: The noble Lord may sidetrack the matter if he likes, but he is accusing us of lack of prevision, and I am saying that his Government did not show much prevision themselves. If anyone has a go at me I usually have one back at him. I leave the matter at that. But I think there might have been a little more prevision in the past.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: And in the present.
LORD LLOYD: Well, we are doing our best now, and it is the first time anything has been done.

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As noble Lords are aware, ten works have been closed down. The noble Lord mentioned 1,500 workers as being involved, but I think the actual figure is 2,300. The redundancy problem was considered by the Joint Industrial Council for the industry and a sub-committee was set up. Of this total of 2,300, approximately 900 were re-absorbed into the tinplate industry itself, and a further 350 were found alternative employment through the employment exchanges in other industries. That takes care of about 1,300. Of the remainder, a considerable proportion are of pensionable age or are unfitted for further work on account of illness, and only 400 are still registered for employment. I am not going to pretend that that situation is in the least satisfactory. That is not my point in giving the House these figures. On the other hand, I think the situation is better than we first thought, and there is this much cause for satisfaction, that the figure of those registered for work should be as low as 400 out of 2,300. I think that is something which the noble Lord opposite would like to know.
Arising out of the closure of the ten mills to which the noble Lord referred, we expect that about 900 more workers will become redundant during this year. Although the mills, officially, have been finally closed, there are still some men hanging on for various jobs. But they will become redundant. Therefore, on that particular series of closures, the total redundancies this year, if none of those 900 is absorbed in other jobs, is likely to be in the neighbourhood of 1,300. My figures are not exact but I am giving them to the nearest round figure.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: Out of 2,000?
LORD LLOYD: It is a complicated sum. The original numbers that were redundant and turned off were 2,300. Of those, all but 400 were either absorbed into other jobs or were too old and retired, or were too sick to go on. But there are 900 more. It is therefore 2,300 plus 900, and it is in regard to those 900 that we hope, if we absorb them at the same rate as the others were absorbed, the net redundancy this year will not be anything like 1,300. I am not prepared to give a guarantee on it, but if we can absorb them at that rate the redundancy will
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not be as serious as 1,300. I am not pretending that we have not to do more yet; I am merely giving noble Lords the position as I understand it.
These ten works are, so far, the only ones which are being finally closed down. There remains however—and that is the thing that is in my mind and in everybody's mind—the problem which will arise when Velindre comes into operation and all the old hand works have to be put out of commission. As my right honourable friend said in the Welsh debate in another place, we accept quite fairly that we have a special responsibility. I should like to read to the House the words used by my right honourable friend. I hope the noble Lords will not mind if I am rather overfull to-day on this subject, but it is one close to the hearts of all of us. He Said (OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 510, col. 422):
"The need for the provision of new opportunities of employment of the people of west South Wales comes not from the decaying of old-established industry, but from its vigorous and far-sighted modern development. That development is taking place with the encouragement and full support of this Government, just as of their predecessors, and the Government must accept some measure of responsibility for dealing with its results."
That, frankly, is the position which the Government accept. My right honourable friend, as noble Lords will remember, went on to outline the Government's initial proposals, with which the House will no doubt be familiar. But again I will remind the House what they were. Also, I will inform the House, so far as I can, what action has been taken on the proposals that he outlined.
My right honourable friend's four proposals were, first, that we should make full use of the Government's powers under the Distribution of Industry Act and, where necessary, relax the restrictions on building for the purpose of encouraging suitable new industries—and here is the point which the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, mentioned, and with which I entirely agree—particularly those closely related to the major steel developments, to come to South Wales. I believe that, on the whole, that idea is right. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, who talked about not having exotic industries. Quite clearly we must try to attract the industry which is

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a user of, and which canwork in harmony with, the existing steel industry. Obviously the operation of that will come at a later stage. The second proposal was to give urgent consideration to improvements in road and rail communications which can be shown to be economic and essential to the industrial organisation of the area. In the debate on Welsh affairs my right honourable friend announced that it had been decided to authorise work on the improvement of the road between Llanelly and Neath. I gladly inform the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, that that work is now in hand and is going ahead, so that is something. The third proposal was to conduct a survey of the area, with a view to carrying out the advance preparation of one or more sites for factories. This survey is now being undertaken. The final proposal was, in order to ensure that Government action is speedily and fully informed of Welsh opinion, to appoint a Committee under my chairmanship to advise the Government of specific measures which are necessary for the modernisation of the area and to consider methods of attracting new industry. The membership of this Committee was announced by my right honourable friend on February 20. I will not weary the House by enumerating this afternoon the composition of that Committee.
Again, I should like to give the House the fullest information I can. The Committee was set up, as your Lordships know, only fairly recently. It takes a long time to set up these Committees, because it is not always easy to get the right man. But the Committee has now been set up, and I am glad to be able to tell the noble Lord that we are having our first meeting the day after to-morrow in Cardiff. So we are getting on with it. There are a great many points raised by the noble Lords, Lord Ogmore and Lord MacDonald, which, inevitably, are matters of long-term planning. It is not possible to build new industries overnight. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, made various constructive suggestions. He said that he thought that the area must be looked at as a whole. I am inclined to agree with him about that. I do not know whether he implies that he would be prepared to see workers having to move some distance from their own
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doorsteps, provided that they remained in South Wales. I should like to put it to him: is that his view or not? Because if you are to consider the area as a whole, you must have some mobility of labour within the area. Does the noble Lord accept that or not?
LORD OGMORE: I was not referring to that particular problem, which is a matter that will have to be decided on the spot by those who are best qualified. I am not qualified. What I meant was, that one of the curses of Wales, as with all small countries, in the present as well as in the past, has been parochialism. One says, "I live in this village. I consider this village: I do not consider any other." When my grandfather was a boy the whole of his village used to go out with sticks and beat up the people in the next village, across the River Ogmore, whom they regarded as foreigners. That comes from the old tribal system of Wales. It is a curse of Wales. We want to get away from that. We want to look at the problem as a whole. It does not matter whether we live in Cardiff, Merthyr or Swansea. One can see the same sort of thing in the argument about the capital of Wales. Everybody wants his village to be the capital of Wales. Whether it has any right to be, or is filled to be, does not matter.
LORD LLOYD: I am glad to know what was in the noble Lord's mind. Obviously, I agree with him and hope that the Committee will be able to look at the problem as a whole.
The noble Lord also mentioned the question of new uses for tinplate. I think that is a valuable point. I may add that, in the view of the industry, to which I will come in a minute, there are going to be a great many new uses for tinplate, and the outlook is not quite so black as the noble Lord seems to feel. This question of new uses for tinplate is something else which obviously this Committee will have to consider—and, of course, the whole question of new industries, which will need a good deal of thinking about and a good deal of organising. No Government can compel industry to go to Wales We have to produce in Wales the economic climate and circumstances which will be attractive to industry. I think I am at one with the noble Lord that the question of communications

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plays a vital part. Anybody who has visited the whole of this area, as I have, and has seen what I may call these great modern 20th century factories standing in roads which are purely of the 17th century, will know that communications are a very important part of any modernisation scheme. I would say at this stage that the Government are taking this matter seriously and are trying to do their best about it. We are taking active steps to try and get something in motion in the long-term plan for this area.
Now I should like to say a word or two about the present short-term problem, which is allied to it in one sense, in that if the Trostre works, which have increased the capacity of the industry by 50 per cent., had not been built, the short-term problem would not exist to-day. But at the same time the short-term problem, although it is allied to the long-term problem, arises from slightly different causes because it is a question of demand. The industry had anticipated that after the closing of the ten mills to which I have already referred, no further permanent redundancies of any magnitude would arise amongst tinplate workers until the new works at Velindre came into operation in four or five years' time. The statement made by Mr. Lever, the chairman of the Steel Company of Wales, to which Lord Ogmore has already made reference, contains these words:
"This Federation estimated the overall demand for 1953 to be just about equal to the capacity of the trade after Trostre had come into full production and some partial closure of hand works had taken place."
That was their view at the beginning of this year. Unfortunately, as the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has pointed out, so far the demand for tinplate has not come up to expectations. This applies particularly to what are known as wasters, which are a large part of the production of the old hand works. The old hand works produced 40 per cent. of wasters as opposed to prime plate, and the demand for wasters, especially abroad, is very bad.
The causes for this are varied. The import and credit restrictions imposed last year in several countries, such as Australia and South Africa, which were good and regular markets, had their
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effect upon the volume of orders which those countries could give. At the same time, the change from scarcity of tinplate to comparative plenty, which was brought about by the coming into production of Trostre, has led many consumers, who in the past had accumulated large stocks of tinplate, to reduce them. I suggest that that is something which always happens when we move from scarcity to plenty. In times of scarcity everybody piles up stocks against times of greater scarcity. When something like Trostre comes suddenly upon the horizon and the supply of tinplate becomes much easier, people live on their stocks. They say, "We need not bother any longer to stock up against a rainy day," and they also hope that prices will come down. I think there is no doubt that that forms a considerable element in the present situation, and that is why the industry, in consultation with the trade unions, decided to close all the hand mills for a temporary period.
The noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, has said that people always talk about a temporary period, and it turns out to be perhaps ten years. Well, I do not think that anybody, not even the noble Lord himself, could predict with certainty the future demand for any commodity in this country. We are all apt to work in the dark about this matter, and we have to make the best forecasts we can. But certainly it is not the view of the leaders of the industry, as I shall show in a moment, that when they talk about a temporary period they mean a period of ten years, or even, I hope, ten months, or anything like that. There is every reason to hope that this is nothing more than a temporary period in the proper sense of the word "temporary"—a temporary recession of the kind that every industry is afflicted with at one time or another. That, at any rate, is the view of the leaders of the industry. Let me quote once more from the statement made by Mr. Lever. He said:
"I and my Board do not believe that this very difficult situation is more than temporary. It is not without importance that Sir Robert Barlow, who is not only one of our directors, but is the chairman of the Metal Box Company, who are our biggest customers, shares this view, and has only recently given public expression to his optimism concerning the future. We know that all over the world the use of tinplate is increasing and has spread to many purposes which had not been thought of before the war, No one can prophesy

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with certainty, and we employ no astrologers in our group; but I am personally quite confident that unless some unforeseen difficulties attack the world we shall see in the second half of this year an increased and progressive demand for tinplate which will continue to move upward in 1954."
I feel, with due humility, that it is not for me to contradict the opinions of men who not only have spent a lifetime in the business but have put everything they have into it. They have put into it their reputations, and a great deal of money—in fact, they have sunk everything into it. When such men are prepared to go ahead with Velindre, which postulates a world demand of 1,500,000 tons, I find it difficult to believe that that in itself is not sufficient to show their confidence in the future demand for this product.
As a matter of interest, I looked at Sir Robert Barlow's remarks and I was rather struck by this example of the potential market that exists He said:
"The potential market is enormous. In the United Stales every family uses 788 cans per year. The figure in this country is 175; in the underdeveloped countries, it is insignificant."
So in cans alone there is an enormous potential reserve of demand. The noble Lord, Lord Macpherson, says that our cans are too expensive. I ant not certain of all the answers to that one, and, he being a canner, I am a little chary of joining is me with him. But I should have thought that part of the answer was possibly that we have not yet achieved production within Trostre. There is not the full plant in Trostre and it is not really running at 100 per cent. of capacity. I may be wrong, but I think that when we get all the new production plant in this country we shall be able to produce a great deal cheaper. At any rate, that is the view of the leaders of the industry.
I should like to end on this point: that, as best we can, we are tackling the long-term problem of the industry, and I have every intention of doing what I can to help. In his Question the noble Lord refers to the serious situation in the tinplate industry. I agree with him that it is deeply to be regretted that this recession has taken place at the present time. I am sure I voice the views of all your Lordships when I say that we deeply regret the hardships which such things
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bring in their wake. Nevertheless, I think the noble Lord is taking perhaps too gloomy a view of the situation. Certainly, his view is in direct contradiction to that of the leaders of this industry.
LORD OGMORE: May I ask in what way my view is in contradiction to anybody? I just stressed the facts and asked for the noble Lord's assurance that he would deal with those facts. I have expressed no view as to the future, except that the hand mills will close down, and the noble Lord I understand agrees with that view.
LORD LLOYD: I beg the noble Lord's pardon; I did not express myself quite as I should have done. It seemed to me that the noble Lord's Question suggested a situation which is very serious, and what I am saying is that this is a recession, admittedly, but we hope and believe that it is a temporary recession. Therefore, even on a middle-term view, I do not think it is as serious as the terms of the noble Lord's Question possibly make it appear. We regard it as a temporary setback, and we have every hope that within a comparatively short time the industry's hope of an even fuller order book will be fulfilled.