§ 2.35 p.m.
§ EARL JOWITTMy Lords, I beg to ask Her Majesty's Government the following Question of which I have given private Notice: Whether they have any further information they can add to the information given to the House yesterday afternoon in regard to affairs in Egypt?
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF READING)My Lords, I regret that for the moment I have nothing further to add to the statement which was made yesterday afternoon.
§ EARL JOWITTMy Lords, then, arising out of the Question yesterday, may I ask this? Were the Foreign Office consulted before the announcement was made, on the instructions of the General Officer Commanding, that, unless Leading Aircraftman Rigden was returned by 9 a.m. on Monday, July 13, certain measures causing inconvenience to a large number of persons in the area might be taken? And did the Foreign Office approve the course which has, in fact, been taken, of searching all traffic entering or leaving Ismailia, by road or rail, on and after that date?
THE MARQUESS OF READINGMy Lords, the action taken by the General Officer Commanding was, in his judgment, necessary to safeguard the troops under his command. He was, therefore, acting fully within his authority and in accordance with normal practice. May I add this? There was, I suggest, no ultimatum. To use the word "ultimatum" in that context is to use 590 a quite inflated expression. There was only a fair warning that, if the Egyptian authorities did nothing to protect British troops against attacks, the General Officer Commanding would himself have to take measures. Seeing that one airman had been abducted and two soldiers shot, one fatally, within a few days, he acted with very great restraint in establishing only six additional check points—I use the word "additional," because I understand that there were already two check points in operation on the Tel-el-Kabir Road, which had been installed on May 15 as the result of a series of attacks on British military transport.
§ EARL. JOWITTMy Lords, I infer from that answer that the Foreign Office were not consulted, May I ask this further question? Whilst recognising to the full the right of the General Officer Commanding to take all steps to protect his men, how will the searching of vehicles entering or leaving Ismailia on or after Monday, July 13, secure Rigden's return, if it be the fact, as reported in The Times to-day, that he was seen to leave in a car in company with Sabri Sarougi on the previous Thursday, July 9?
THE MARQUESS OF READINGMy Lords, he was seen to leave a hotel in Ismailia. But whether he is still in Ismailia, or is outside, I do not think we have any information. The General Officer Commanding is surely entitled to search transport on the roads leading to and from Ismailia in order to ascertain whether or not this man, at some subsequent date, is being removed.
§ EARL JOWITTBut what about traffic entering Ismailia?
§ EARL JOWITTMy Lords, I would just ask this further question. Is it still the policy of Her Majesty's Government to resume at the earliest opportunity discussions on the larger issues concerning the base and the defence of the Middle East? In view of the difficult diplomatic issues involved, surely it would be right that the General Officer Commanding should communicate with the Foreign Office about those matters.
THE MARQUESS OF READINGMy Lords, the situation in the Canal Zone is, and has been for some time, such that it is surely right to give the General Officer Commanding on the spot full latitude to deal with the situation. As regards the wider situation about which the noble and learned Earl asked, the position is no different from what it was when my right honourable friend the Prime Minister made his speech in another place, in which he said, in regard to the discussions with Egypt:
If at any time the Egyptians wish to renew the discussions, we are willing.He went on to say:Our hope is that negotiations will be resumed. In the meanwhile, we may await the development of events with the composure which follows from the combination of patience and strength.That remains our policy.
§ EARL HOWEMy Lords, may I ask whether it is not a fact that since the Rigden incident another British Serviceman has been shot? Is it not about time that we got a little tough?
THE MARQUESS OF READINGMy Lords, I would not commit myself as to whether it was before or after the Rigden incident, but, as I have already mentioned, there have been two cases, one fatal, within the last few days.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, is the noble Marquess not aware that the solicitude for the safety of our soldiers is just as keen on this side of the House as it is on his? What we are asking is: Are these measures related in any way to the safety of our soldiers? General Festing described them as something which would cause great inconvenience to the civilians. It appears that they are not related to the safety of our soldiers. That is the first point. The second point on which I should like an answer is this. Is it right, as stated in an evening paper, that a scheme for the air and sea evacuation of British families from the Canal Zone has been drawn up, and that families are in a state of semi-stand-to? If the noble Marquess can answer that, he will throw further light on the other question—whether it is wise to allow this bitterness and hatred to grow up, instead of getting on with the negotiations, which must be settled at the earliest possible moment.
THE MARQUESS OF READINGMy Lords, as to the point the noble Viscount raised about great inconvenience to civilians not being a matter arising out of the protection of soldiers, I am afraid that I do not agree with him that the two do not hang together. Civilians can be as great a threat to soldiers, if they are armed, as members of the armed forces can be. As I have said, what the General Officer Commanding is doing is within his discretion, to give protection as he can to his men. As regards the second question, the air and sea, I have no information that would support the statement which the noble Viscount has made. When he goes on to talk about "reduction of bitterness," whilst I do not wish in any way to build up this present incident into anything of great importance, I must point out to him that bitterness is not reduced by the shooting of British soldiers by Egyptians.
§ EARL JOWITTWe really must come back to this. I entirely agree that the General Officer Commanding must have full powers to protect his men. That is obvious. But surely, in view of the political repercussions of this matter, he should at the same time, whilst taking these steps, inform the Foreign Office of all the facts relating to it. Has he not done so?
THE MARQUESS OF READINGThe Foreign Office have, of course, now been informed. They were not informed before, as I told the noble Earl; but information is now in our possession, and the General Officer Commanding, as I have said before, was not acting outside the normal scope of his authority in taking the measures that he did take.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEWould the noble Marquess be prepared to tell the House exactly under what warrant the General Officer Commanding is acting; to what extent he has liberty to impose what many would describe as a collective punishment and to what extent he has to consult the Foreign Office?
THE MARQUESS OF READINGI do not know who are the "many" who would describe these general steps which General Festing took as a collective punishment. If there are any, they would be wrong. His authority is the authority, I imagine, which any General 593 Officer Commanding has—the authority to take what measures he thinks right in a moment of difficulty and danger to his men, to assure, so far as possible, their safety.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEI am sorry to trouble the noble Marquess again, but may I draw his attention to the words which were used by the General Officer Commanding:
General Festing reserved the right to take certain measures which were bound to cause inconvenience to a large number of inhabitants in the area.How are those measures related to what has occurred? How is searching a train coming from Cairo related to finding an aircraftman who disappeared in a car going in another direction?
THE MARQUESS OF READINGThe measures which the General Officer took, which are referred to in his letter, were the measures which he thought, in his discretion, were necessary. If he thinks it is necessary to search the train for other persons coming in who might carry out similar offences. I should have thought that he was justified in seeing that they did not come in. As to his letter, I would only point out that that letter was not intended for publication by us, but was published by the Egyptian Government.
LORD STRABOLGIOn this question of information by the Foreign Office, which was raised by my noble and learned friend Lord Jowitt, is there still direct communication through the War Office and the Foreign Office in London?