§ 2.36 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDONMy Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask whether Her Majesty's Government is aware that no less than 50,000 firearms, under the game laws, are legally in the possession of Africans in Northern Rhodesia; and whether, in view of what is happening elsewhere, steps should not be taken to reduce this number.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (LORD LLOYD)My Lords, in the unavoidable absence of my noble friend the Minister, Lord Munster, I have been asked to reply. The 47,366 guns at present held by Africans are licensed under the Arms and Ammunition Ordinance. Over 40,000 are muzzle loaders, the main use of which is ceremonial. The purchase of firearms and the supply of ammunition are strictly controlled. The Government of Northern Rhodesia review this matter from time to time, and Her Majesty's Government share their view that no further measures are needed at present.
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDONMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply I should like to ask him a further question. I gather it is agreed that permission to own arms is given under the Arms and Ammunition Ordinance. May I ask whether the Minister is aware that the owner of such a licence is free to take out a game licence—and 80 per cent. of them, in fact, do so—at a cost of approximately 2s. 6d.?
LORD LLOYDI was aware of that, but that, perhaps, is a matter which arises out of the next question rather than out of this one.
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDONMy Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is a fact that the slaughter of game in Northern Rhodesia is on such a scale as seriously to threaten the future meat supply, and the continued existence there of any considerable numbers of wild animals; and what steps are being taken to preserve the wild life, which is of inestimable value, both practically and æsthetically,to future generations.]
LORD LLOYDMy Lords, the Government of Northern Rhodesia are confident that the measures which have been and are being taken to conserve wild life will ensure that game will always be present in considerable numbers. These measures include the creation of the Kafue National Park, the establishment of game reserves covering 6½ per cent. of the territory's land area, the strict control of the purchase of firearms by Africans and the revision of the fauna conservation laws.
§ LORD WINSTERMay I ask the Minister whether it is not the case that five-eighths of the territory in question is under tsetse fly, so that the only meat upon which the native can rely is game meat? If the game is exterminated in this manner, what will the native do for food?
LORD LLOYDThe noble Lord will appreciate that I am not in close daily touch with this problem. In the first place, however, I understand that the Government do not anticipate anything like the extermination of game. We should all regret that very deeply. I can assure the noble Lord that both Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Northern Rhodesia are closely concerned with this question of the preservation of game. It would indeed he a tragedy if it were to be exterminated, but the two Governments do not believe that, in the present circumstances, that will occur. As regards the question of increase in the destruction of game, there has been some increase owing, partly, to the increase in both the African and European populations. Of course, as the noble Lord has mentioned, the tsetse fly comes into this matter, and a certain 1143 amount of destruction is necessary, in the interests of the human population, to protect crops and grazing and to control the tsetse fly.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, arising out of that reply, may I ask whether it is now the Government's policy that in the African Colonies there should be slaughter of game, as in Southern Rhodesia, to prevent the spread of tsetse fly? I understand that there are many authorities in Africa who do not agree with the slaughter policy of Southern Rhodesia, and who say that it has had very little effect upon the spread of tsetse fly. Is this a new departure in Government policy?
LORD LLOYDNaturally, Her Majesty's Government watch this matter carefully, but we feel that in questions of this kind we must pay due attention to what the Government on the spot think. They are perfectly content, and, so far, we are content to accept their view that there is no danger of complete elimination or, indeed, of serious elimination of game in Northern Rhodesia. I will certainly convey to my noble friend, when he comes back, what the noble Lord has said. No doubt when he does return, if the noble Lord wishes to raise the matter with him he will do so.
LORD FARINGDONArising out of that reply, is it not a fact that veterinary departments and agricultural departments in all these African territories are all of the view that the amount of game is excessive and should be reduced?
LORD LLOYDCertainly, it is the view, as I understand, that a certain amount of game should be exterminated. That, of course, is a matter for the Government on the spot, and not for the Minister. Further than that I should not be prepared to go to-day.
§ LORD WINSTERI hope that I am not wandering too far from the subject of the original Question, but this question of game in the Colonies requires most careful attention. In the island of Cyprus, where no question of tsetse fly arises, game is within very short distance of complete extermination.
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDONMay I thank the Minister for the courtesy 1144 of his several replies? I fully appreciate his difficulties, but I should like to ask him one last question. Is he completely satisfied that the Government of Northern Rhodesia are happy about this game position? If he reads the report on the Carp Expedition, which was published in The Times on September 16, 1952, he will see that Mr. Carp says that within fifteen years game, except elephant and buffalo, will virtually be non-existent in Northern Rhodesia. Captain Pitman's survey of last year brings out exactly the same point. I would ask him, in all fairness, to request the Government of Northern Rhodesia to study what is being done in the United States in this respect. I would also ask him why the Red Indians fed on buffalo for many centuries and why the present inhabitants of North America eat turkey on Thanksgiving Day.
LORD LLOYDMy Lords, we seem to have got rather far from the original question—althoughI am always interested in turkey! In regard to the noble Marquess's last point, Her Majesty's Government have complete confidence in the Government of Northern Rhodesia. That Government hope that the new forest conservation laws will be effective. What is more, since enforcement depends largely on public opinion, the noble Marquess will be encouraged to know that there are definite signs that public opinion in Northern Rhodesia is swinging round in favour of more stringent control.