§ 3.58 p.m.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY)My Lords, I am reluctant to interrupt the noble Viscount, and indeed I should not have done so had it not been for the fact that I cannot spare very much time to make to the House a statement which I feel the House ought to have, as it is now being made by the Prime Minister in another place. I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will understand if I intervene at this moment. The statement refers to research into atomic energy, and runs as follows:
"As the House knows, considerable strides have been made in the development of methods for using atomic energy for industrial purposes, and these aspects are coming very much to the fore. In order to secure the most rapid and economic development in the field of atomic energy, both military and industrial, Her Majesty's Government have set up a Committee consisting of the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, who will be Chairman, Sir Wallace Akers and Sir John Woods, with the following terms of reference:
'To devise a plan for transferring responsibility for atomic energy from the Ministry of Supply to a non-departmental organisation and to work out the most suitable form for the new organisation, due regard being paid to any constitutional and financial implications.'"It is clear that the form of non-departmental organisation appropriate in this case will differ from any existing model: overall policy must remain firmly in the hands of the Government and the method of financial control will have to be closely studied, since for some time to come almost the whole of the cost will have to be met from public funds. No further statement on the precise form of organisation can be made until Lord Waverley's Committee has proposed a plan in detail and it has been studied by the Government."Her Majesty's Government think it is right to state that, whatever changes may be decided upon, the rights and interests of the existing staff will be fully respected. Consultation with the staff representatives will take place at the appropriate time."
29 That, my Lords, is the statement which I have to make. I thought that the House would wish to have it as soon as possible.
§ EARL JOWITTMy Lords, we are all grateful to the noble Marquess for making that statement. It is a statement which the House would certainly desire to have. It is difficult to comment upon it at the moment. I confess that I do not know what is contemplated by a "non-departmental organisation"—I suppose that it is an organisation which is responsible to no Minister. If that is so, we should desire to reserve our rights in regard to the whole scheme. And I would ask that we may have an opportunity, at a very early date after the Committee's Report has been made, of debating and discussing it before final conclusions are reached, while the minds of the Government are still in a formative stage and at a time when they may profit from suggestions and criticism from this side of the House.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI can assure the noble and learned Earl that we will bear very much in mind what he has said.
§ LORD LAWSONMy Lords, as an infant in these matters I hesitate about making a statement of opinion upon them. On the surface, however, apart from taking the matter out of the Minister's hands and putting it into the hands of a Committee of this kind, I cannot see what can be proposed by the Committee that is not being done now, either for using atomic energy industrially or for using it for military and offensive purposes. I understand that in the country it is being used and studied in industrial concerns, and just exactly what the change will achieve I cannot understand. I am pleased that the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, has said that we shall want to have some discussion upon this matter when it comes before us in some set form. I do not suppose that when it does come before us I shall make any very material contribution to any discussion we may have, but I am a very much puzzled person over the Government's intentions in this matter.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEI wish to put this to the noble Marquess. We live in days of constitutional innovations, and presumably the money that is going to be given to this new organisation has got to 30 be carried on some Vote. What Vote is it going to be carried on? Will there be some Minister, in another place, and presumably also someone in this House, to answer for the expenditure of the money?
§ LORD TEVIOTMay I ask this question? Is there any great difference between what is suggested now and the ordinary inter-departmental Committee which is set up to discuss matters with regard to various Departments?
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI really think it would be best, if I may say so with all deference, for noble Lords to see what is recommended by Lord Waverley's Committee before we go into these details. Indeed, I am not in a position to do so to-day. What I will certainly undertake to do is to bear very much in mind what the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, and the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, have said with regard to future discussions in this House. I do not think I should say anything more at present—indeed, pending further inquiries, as I say, I am not in a position to do so.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEThe noble Marquess will realise that it is rather strange to inform the House that Lord Waverley is going to preside over a Committee which will dispose of public funds, and yet he is unable to tell us on what Vote those funds are to be carried. We should be interested to know whether Lord Cherwell has any continuing interest in these finances. It is right to reorganise public administrations, but, it is wrong to announce that public money is to be spent when you cannot say on what Departmental Vote it will be carried.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThe noble Viscount should remember this. Lord Waverley will, we hope, devise a plan, and the noble Viscount had better look at the plan before asking for details of how exactly it will work out. I agree that there must come an appropriate moment when the matter should be fully discussed by Parliament—there is no difference between us about that. It would be impossible for me to answer the noble Viscount's question on a matter which is an integral part of a plan not yet produced.
LORD STRABOLGII hope that this new duty will not interfere with Lord Waverley's very important duty of presiding over the Committee which is investigating the causes and prevention of floods. I should have thought that that task was far more urgent than the work of this new body.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYIt is not for me to give categories of urgency in these matters. I feel certain, however, from what I know of the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, that he will be perfectly capable of dealing with these two tasks.
§ EARL JOWITTI hope the noble Marquess will realise that what is worrying us is this. It is not that we distrust for one moment Lord Waverley's experience or his discretion. It seems to us, however, that in the advice which he is to give, and the plan which he is to draw up, Lord Waverley is to be confined to this non-departmental organisation. We should very much rather have the matter arranged so that Lord Waverley could advise and plan as he liked, rather than have all this completely novel constitutional procedure as we understand it.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI fully appreciate the noble and learned Earl's point. If he would like to put down a Question on the subject, I will of course do my best to answer it. But I should rather not go any further to-day.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEThis is a simple constitutional question. Are we to understand that the noble Marquess's announcement means that some global sum is to be presented to some non-Governmental organisation for dispensing, or will it appear in a Parliamentary Vote? He has told us that this work is to be taken away from the Ministry of Supply which, in regard to money expended, is responsible to Parliament. Shall we be allowed to ask Lord Waverley what he has done with the money?
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThe noble Viscount must preserve his soul in patience for the moment. I did not say that this was a non-Governmental organisation, I said that it would be a non-departmental organisation, which is quite a different thing. I really cannot go any further to-day. If noble Lords 32 like to put down Questions, I will do my best to answer them. In any case, there will be opportunity in due course to resolve those problems.