HL Deb 20 March 1952 vol 175 cc903-7

6.17 p.m.

LORD SALTOUN had given notice of his intention to ask Her Majesty's Government whether in view of the exemption from estate duties enjoyed by private soldiers, corporals and lance-sergeants killed in action (and similarly in the other Services) they will extend the exemption to all ranks alike; and if not, what are the grounds for withholding the exemption. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I had a good deal of fear and very little hope, when this Question was put down on the Order Paper, but in the considerable interval that has elapsed the oracle has spoken, and I am now enabled to quote in your Lordships' House what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in his Budget Speech—I quote from the OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons; Volume 497, Column 1294: I am also revising the arrangements for relief from Estate Duty on the estates of members of the Forces. The present distinction between lower and higher ranks is quite unjustifiable. My proposal is to treat all ranks alike and, broadly speaking, to give total exemption from Estate Duty in time of war or in warlike operations and no relief at all in time of peace. This matter has been agitating your Lordships' House for a considerable time now. Your Lordships have always shown great sympathy for those affected, and what has now been conceded is all that we have ever contended for. If I may presume to make myself the mouthpiece of your Lordships to that extent, I would ask the noble Marquess who leads us to convey our thanks to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for this concession, and I should like to express my personal gratitude, and that of my noble friends who have interested themselves in this subject, to the noble Marquess and other noble Lords for the influence that I know must have been exercised behind the scenes.

The matter is not so simple as it seems, as I will explain. This is a subject with regard to which Her Majesty's Government must have known, as I know well, that no pressure can be brought to bear on the Government. I have discussed this question with editors of newspapers and they have said: "If you can get one frightfully bad case and have the details of that published in the Press we can do something. But we cannot arouse popular sympathy just on the law as it stands at present." The Government must be just as well aware of that fact as I have been. It is very unusual that a Government should have taken a deliberate step like this simply because they felt it was right and just, and without any real pressure being exercised upon them. I am very glad that it was a Conservative Government which did this. I should, of course, have been very grateful to any Government which did it. I think that what has happened is sufficiently unusual for it to be marked by a special expression of thanks.

Before I sit down, I should like to say two things. In the first place, during the discussions that have taken place on this matter in the last two years, it has been suggested to me that I ought not to be so keen on this reform because, if it took place, a greater burden would be placed on the direct taxpayer. I do not think that anywhere in Parliament the direct taxpayer is very well represented, but if I may take myself as representing him I should like to thank Her Majesty's Government for removing from my mind, when I peruse the casualty lists, the horrible thought which has hitherto afflicted me. I am sure that every other taxpayer will agree with me in that matter. Finally, I should like to say that the noble Earl, Lord Cork and Orrery, who was here earlier this afternoon, had hoped to say how welcome this decision would be to all ranks in Her Majesty's Navy. As he has had to leave the House, he has asked me to express his regret at having to do so and to voice the thanks which he would have uttered had he been able to remain.

6.20 p.m.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY)

My Lords, I rise to thank the noble Lord for what he has said, and to tell him that I will transmit his very kind remarks to my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I would add just this. It may be of interest to the House to know—and no doubt the Opposition will be glad to hear it—that noble Lords opposite and their Party have not been to blame for this differentiation. It dates back to 1815. At any rate we now live in an equalitarian age, and I am glad to think that this differentiation between rich and poor has now been abolished.

6.21 p.m.

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN

My Lords, I have no right to speak for the Army but I feel that since my noble friend Lord Saltoun has expressed the thanks of the Navy, on behalf of the noble Earl, Lord Cork, it would be only right that I should say shortly how sure I am that every officer in the Army will be pleased that this new arrangement is to be made. It is an anomaly which has been due—and overdue—for removal ever since the decision a good many years ago that all commissions should be obtained through the ranks. It is high time that this change from a state of affairs which has existed since 1815 should be made. There is only one other thing I should like to say—and I say it without wishing to appear in any way ungrateful for the announcement which has been made. Presumably, there will be a clause in the Finance Bill which will deal with this particular point, and when that clause comes up it may well be that there will be a certain amount of discussion on the question of whether certain "warlike operations" are or are not officially wars. Without considering the warlike operations now in progress, one can recall a time when certain operations were in progress in Ireland. In those operations officers in His Majesty's Forces were killed. Whether or not those operations would have been officially classed as war, and whether or not, had this arrangement been in force then, the officers in question would have qualified for remission of death duties I do not know. But I have no doubt that it is a point which the noble Marquess and his right honourable friends in another place will be watching carefully when they come to debate the relevant clause. Once again I should like to express my thanks for this step on the part of Her Majesty's Government.

6.23 p.m.

LORD HAWKE

My Lords, I should also like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, on the happy result of this crusade which he has been waging for a very considerable time, with the entire sympathy of your Lordships' House. I think it is a tribute to your Lordships that the agitation here in this Chamber has resulted in this injustice being put right. I hope that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer is drafting the relevant clause in the Finance Bill he will endeavour to be generous in this matter. I know that the definition of "warlike operations" was, and remains, a most difficult one, I think all of us will feel that justice can be done only if it is really seen that everyone who meets a violent death while in one of the Services—a death which he would not normally expect to meet in civilian life—will be covered by the definition which the Chancellor of the Exchequer chooses to put in the Bill.

6.24 p.m.

LORD PAKENHAM

My Lords, may I join with other noble Lords who have spoken in expressing thanks for the change which is now to be made? I had had it in mind also to raise one or two detailed points, if not to-day then on a later occasion. Certainly, we shall want to study carefully the actual clause when it appears. I am sure that in princple the Government are setting out to do the right thing. I have had the privilege of giving a great number of replies on different subjects in your Lordships' House in the last few years, and in nearly every case I have always been proud to expound the views of the late Government. But this was a matter on which I was, perhaps, less happy than on most others. I should like to think that if our Party had continued in power we should have taken steps to put the anomaly right. Certainly we extend our congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, for his persistence and gallantry in the matter. I must say, however, that I do not share his very low view of Governments—even, if I may say so, of Conservative Governments. The noble Lord seems astounded that a Government should set out to do what they thought to be right, simply because they did think it was right, and without any tremendous pressure from the popular Press. I should take a very different view of all Governments from that which is apparently taken by the noble Lord. I hope that this Government will always do what they believe to be right, which is what we always tried to do. I am very pleased, and I think that I may say that all my friends on this side are also pleased, to think that we can now be happy in the knowledge that this satisfactory change is to be made.