HL Deb 26 June 1952 vol 177 cc446-8

2.39 p.m.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Hume I beg to move that the National Assistance (Adaptation of Enactments) Regulations, 1952, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday, the 18th instant, be approved. I believe that these Regulations are non-controversial. They are, in fact, completely consequential on the repeal of the Poor Law and the Unemployment Assistance Act.

Moved, That the National Assistance (Adaptation of Enactments) Regulations, 1952, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday, the 18th instant, be approved.—(The Earl of Onslow.)

LORD MORRISON

My Lords, I had hoped that the Scottish Minister would appear for once in order to give some explanation of these Regulations. So far as I understand them, it was customary, in days long before most of us were born, for people convicted of breaking certain laws to be fined, and for part of the fine to be allotted to the poor. The passing of the National Assistance Act has abolished the poor—at least, legally—and, therefore, it is impossible now to define "the poor." I understand that it is necessary to make all these Regulations in order that new methods shall be applied. I gather that under the Railways Act, and a number of other Acts of Parliament, the new method will be that, instead of the person who breaks the law being fined, and half of the fine being given to the poor, either through the parish church or the local magistrates, the money will now be given to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This may not be so romantic, but it is a more practical method of dealing with the situation.

I understand, also, that penalties were imposed upon railway companies when, in the course of constructing railways, they interfered with the waterworks and the gasworks. For some reason which I have been unable to discover, part of those penalties was applied to the poor. Now they are to be applied to the gas boards and the water boards. That, also, seems to me to be a fairer application of those sums. There are other quaint matters concerning burial grounds, smoke nuisance, pawnbrokers and other things, from all of which the poor benefited in the past. Time marches on, even in Scotland, although the last time I was there I remember seeing an advertisement from a tourist agency encouraging people to "Visit the Western Islands of Scotland, where time stands still." The only question I have to ask—I apologise for asking it, and I expect that the answer will be in the affirmative—is whether the authorities concerned have all been consulted in the drafting of these Regulations.

LORD SALTOUN

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Morrison for what he has said. I rise to say, quite shortly, that I hope nobody in the country will think that, because the technical and legal definition of "poor" has been abolished, there are no poor in the country. I have had the honour of drawing your Lordships' attention to a state of things which I say is worse than the state that preceded it. In any case, it shows that there are people who are greatly in need of help, which to-day is not coming along as smoothly and rapidly as we should like. I deeply regret that this change has been necessary, and that the money will now go into the impersonal coffers of the Treasury rather than being publicly devoted conscientiously for the help of the poor. I hope your Lordships' will not think that in saying that, I am exceedingly reactionary, for I am speaking about the state of things in a country which had an educational Act and a legal assistance Act as early as the sixteenth century.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

My Lords, once again I apologise for the absence of my noble friend, but I believe that the Scottish Office are even more interested in vetting everything, particularly after the address of the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, yesterday. Therefore the noble Earl, Lord Home, is doing his duty there, and I am his humble spokesman this afternoon. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, that the various interests which he has mentioned have been consulted and are agreeable to this change. With regard to the remarks made by the noble Lord and also by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, about the Poor Law and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I can only say that the Party opposite abolished the poor—so they say—but created more need for the Chancellor of the Exchequer's funds.

On Question, Motion agreed to.