HL Deb 24 June 1952 vol 177 cc348-54

2.40 p.m.

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I rise to move that the Irish Sailors and Soldiers Land Trust Bill be read a second time. I hope and think that this measure may prove entirely uncontroversial, but it may be for the convenience of the House if I give, very briefly, the history of the Trust to which the Bill relates. The Irish Sailors' and Soldiers' Land Trust was set up under a United Kingdom Act of Parliament to provide cottages in both Northern and Southern Ireland for ex-Service men of the 1914–18 war. In the Irish Republic 2,720 cottages have been built, and in Northern Ireland 1,313, including 62 which have been built since the last war out of the small amount of capital remaining. These are let to ex-Service men of the 1914–18 war or their widows. A number of these cottages were built by the Local Government Board (Dublin) and the Ministry of Finance, Belfast, and handed over to the Trust when it was formed in 1924. The remainder were built by the Trust out of £1,300,000 which was voted by the United Kingdom Parliament.

Difficulties arose in the administration of the Trust in Eire when in 1933 the Supreme Court of Eire ruled that the Trust had no power to charge rents for these cottages in Eire. The courts in Northern Ireland, on the other hand, ruled that the Trust had power to charge rents there. Since the date of the decision in Eire, no new building has been undertaken in Southern Ireland, and in the absence of rents, maintenance has been kept to a minimum. Nevertheless, the Trust in Southern Ireland has inevitably run at a loss, which has been covered year by year by drawing on the Trust's reserves. Clearly, that is not a position that could be allowed to endure for ever. The Trust has therefore devised a scheme, called the "Sell and build" scheme, which, in effect, provides that qualified ex-Service men should be allowed to buy Trust cottages, the proceeds of sale being used primarily to build new cottages for sale to further ex-Service men of the 1914–18 war on the waiting list.

The scheme is intended mainly for dealing with the property of the Trust in the Irish Republic, but it will also operate in Northern Ireland on terms adjusted to make it appropriate to conditions there. The main difference reflects the fact that tenants in the North pay rent, while those in the South do not. It follows that in the South the main object of the scheme is to give the ex-Service man the opportunity to buy in his life-time, in order to secure the cottage for his family after his death. In order to further that object it will be the policy of the Trust not to admit any new widow tenancies in the Republic once the purchase scheme is in operation. Your Lordships will appreciate that the effect of the scheme will be, on the one hand, to eke out the Trust's reserves through reduction of the expenditure on current maintenance and, on the other, gradually to wind up the work of the Trust through sale of its cottages, both those already built and those to be built in the future.

This scheme has been submitted by the Trust to all the Governments concerned—the United Kingdom Government, the Northern Ireland Government and the Government of the Irish Republic. The latter have accepted it, subject to the Trust being empowered to sell not only to qualified ex-Service men but also to existing widow tenants. This appears to us to be a very reasonable addition. But under the law, as it stands now, the Trust has no power to sell to widows. The purpose of the present Bill is to confirm the power of the Trust to sell cot- tages to qualified ex-Service tenants and men on the waiting list, and also to provide for the sale to widows in occupation whose husbands have died before, or within six months after, the commencement of the Act. The way will then be clear for the Trust to put into operation a purchase scheme on these lines for the benefit of the ex-Service men and their families, both in the Irish Republic and in Northern Ireland. As your Lordships will see, the Bill is simple and, as I say, uncontroversial. It is needed by the Trust to enable it to do its duty by its beneficiaries, the ex-Service men in Ireland. The principle behind it is agreed between all the Governments concerned—the United Kingdom Government, the Northern Ireland Government, and the Government of the Irish Republic. I commend the Bill to your Lordships as a measure which can rightly be supported from all parts of the House. I move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

2.45 p.m.

THE EARL OF LUCAN

My Lords, it will no doubt have come as something of a surprise to most of your Lordships that such a Trust as this existed, and your Lordships will be all the more grateful to the noble Marquess for having given such a clear explanation of its history and background. One or two questions occur to me, in view of the fact that the Trust is for the benefit only of survivors of the 1914–18 war. It appears that the present plan of the Trust is to build more houses, and as they sell existing houses to invest the money in further houses for sale also to the beneficiaries of the Trust. I wonder what is the intention of the Trust in the more distant future, when there are no more surviving members of the 1914–18 war. I think a word on the further intention of the Trust would be of help to your Lordships. Subject to that I can say that this is a Bill which we all welcome. We are glad to hear that it has been drafted in full agreement between Her Majesty's Government here and the Governments of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and we support the Bill entirely.

2.47 p.m.

LORD CAREW

My Lords, I rise to speak on this Bill as one of the trustees of the Trust appointed by Her Majesty's Government, and to urge the passage of this Bill. The reason and key to the Bill now before your Lordships lies in the Republic of Ireland, as indicated by the noble Marquess the Secretary of State, who has moved the Second Reading of the Bill, and my remarks refer almost totally to the position in that part of Ireland. In Northern Ireland it is not expected that great use will be made of the powers given by the Bill, but the increased powers conferred upon the Trustees are considered to be desirable. I am in close touch with the feelings and desires of British ex-Service men in the Republic of Ireland, and, in addition, their expressed wishes have been fully ascertained through the permanent staff of the Trust, to all and each of whom I wish to pay tribute before your Lordships for their long and loyal service to the British ex-Service community in that country, and for their friendly and efficient contacts with the occupants and prospective occupants of our houses spread all over the country. The British Legion branches in the Republic, both at branch meetings which I have attended and at successive annual conferences, have clearly indicated that a scheme allowing of permissive purchase of our houses by ex-Service occupants or their widows is desirable and has the fullest support of the ex-Service community. The noble Marquess the Secretary of State has just informed your Lordships of the administrative and financial reasons which have led the Trust to seek such further powers, and it is our hope that this Bill will become law at a very early date without opposition in either House. I would take this opportunity of thanking Her Majesty's Government for the facilities given in bringing this Bill forward as a Government measure.

There are some particular points on which your Lordships will wish for information. First (and this is the point to which Lord Lucan referred), it would have been the desire of the trustees, and also of the British ex-Service community, that the benefits of the Trust should in due course be extended to men of the 1939–45 war. As, however, the funds available to the Trust for continuance of maintenance and administration in the Republic of Ireland are so nearly exhausted, and since no further funds can possibly be forthcoming, this would only result, within an estimated period of some six years, in a position where the trustees would be left with some 2,700 houses on their hands and no funds to support them, and it has therefore had to be abandoned.

In addition, I would inform your Lordships that in the city areas of Ireland we have considerable waiting lists of men who are still desiring to be accommodated and who have a right under the terms of the Trust to be accommodated; and they must have priority before any question of 1939–45 men can arise. Should the Trust still be in existence some years hence and have houses on its hands without the chance of finding 1914–18 men desirous either to become tenants or to purchase, the Trust would again approach Her Majesty's Government and also the Government of the Republic of Ireland and seek powers to extend its benefits to the men of the 1939–45 war.

Secondly, the funds expected to accrue in the Republic of Ireland from sales of houses to present occupants or to other men of the 1914–18 War will enable the Trust to build further houses where specially required in the city areas, to continue the maintenance of present houses and to provide, where practicable, modern water supply and sanitation in conjunction with the recent extension of such facilities by local authorities. Thirdly, the number of houses remaining under the Trust control will materially decrease, thus reducing progressively the burdens on Trust funds of administration and maintenance. I wish to pay tribute to the most useful and essential cooperation given to the trustees in the preparation of this scheme by the Government of the Republic of Ireland, both the Government now in office and their immediate predecessors, and to thank them for the assistance they have given in assuring us that the present legislation as introduced in your Lordships' House to-day meets with their approval and that they will put no difficulties in our way. I therefore commend this Bill to your Lordships, with great confidence that in so doing I am fulfilling my task as a trustee.

2.54 p.m.

THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY

My Lords, I do not wish to introduce a contentious note into the harmony which has existed so far. I can quite understand that on the higher levels it is desirable that everything should go through without any opposition. I am not going to oppose this Bill; I want only to put forward another view. I am interested, and closely interested, in one of these Trust colonies. It comprises between fifty and sixty houses. I saw the men who live there not very long ago and I hope to see them again either this month or next month. They are, of course, in Southern Ireland. I do not say that ex-Service men in Southern Ireland are no man's children, for of course they are; but they are not in the same position as those in Northern Ireland. A man working on the land in Southern Ireland can no more buy his house than he can fly. Nor can he raise the money. What security has he got? As I say, these men in many cases simply cannot buy their houses, nor can the widows, and cases have already been reported of families being turned out of these houses. It is true that these cases have been sympathetically looked after. The magistrates or judges who deal with these things have in some cases prolonged the period allowed by three or four months, in order to give a family a chance to look for lodgings. But it is the case that a family may be turned out of its home and I do think there is a moral obligation on someone to look after the children in such families, at least until they reach the age of sixteen. I do not feel that there is enough in this Bill to protect the future interest of these ex-Service men, who are entitled to have families and who are bringing up a fine race of boys.

2.56 p.m.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, there is really little I need add to what I have already said. To a large extent the question which was asked by the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, has already been answered by the noble Lord, Lord Carew. As I understood it, what was worrying him was the question of the destination of the Trust funds in the future when there were no more survivors of the 1914–18 war. As I understand the position, supposing such a situation did arise, property which was not required for the Trust could be sold in the open market. But, actually, there is not likely to be any money because, as the noble Lord, Lord Carew, has already told your Lordships, when houses are sold to ex-Service men, as they are to be sold now, the funds will be reinvested in new houses which will be built. Under modern conditions these houses will cost considerably more money than did the original ones, and it would be impossible to sell these to ex-Service men—this was, I think, the point which the noble Earl, Lord Cork, also made—at an economic price. Arrangements are therefore being made for them to be able to acquire these houses at lower prices than their true cost. If that goes on long enough, it will be obvious to your Lordships that the fund will be ultimately exhausted—and exhausted in a very good way. This "build and sell" scheme may be regarded, therefore, as self-liquidating.

With regard to what the noble Earl, Lord Cork, has said, we all know and share his concern for the position of ex-Servicemen, but as I understood it what was particularly troubling him was that, if these houses were for sale, very few ex-Servicemen would be in a financial position to buy them. I understand—the noble Lord, Lord Carew, will correct me if I am wrong—that that has been very much in the minds of the trustees, and that these houses which are going to be sold, as are the new ones which are going to be built, will be made available to ex-Servicemen of the 1914–18 war at prices very much below their real value.

On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House.