Lords Sitting of 16 December 1952

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers
The Viscount Goschen—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his uncle.
Prayers

  APPEAL COURTS' POWERS TO ORDER RETRIAL
  2.35 p.m.
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I beg leave to ask Her Majesty's Government the Question of which I have given private notice. The Question is as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government, with reference to Lord Goddard's Motion in the House of Lords on May 8, 1952, whether they contemplate that legislation should be introduced to grant to the Court of Criminal Appeal and to the House of Lords power to order a new trial.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SIMONDS): My Lords, I am glad to announce that a Departmental Committee has now been set up by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary and myself to inquire into this matter. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Tucker, will preside, and the terms of reference and composition of the Committee will be as follows:
  "To consider whether the Court of Criminal Appeal and the House of Lords should be empowered to order a new trial of a convicted person who has appealed to the Court of Criminal Appeal or whose case has been referred to the Court by the Secretary of State, and, if so, in what circumstances and subject to what safeguards."
  The Committee will be the right honourable Lord Tucker, Chairman; the right honourable Sir Travers Humphreys, a former Judge of the High Court of Justice; Mr. R. F. Levy, Q.C., Mr. John Bass, M.B.E., Junior Prosecuting Counsel at the Central Criminal Court; Sir Theobald Mathew, K.B.E., M.C., the Director of Public Prosecutions; Mr. Noel Leigh Taylor, M.B.E., solicitor; Mr. Francis Graham-Harrison, of the Home Office, and Mr. G. P. Coldstream, C.B., of the Lord Chancellor's Office.
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  The Secretary will be Mr. R. A. James, M.C., of the Home Office.
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, in view of the difference of opinion manifested in this House between the two Houses of Parliament on previous occasions, obviously any such proposal will need the most careful inquiry. I should like merely to say this: that, speaking for myself, I congratulate Her Majesty's Government on appointing an expert Committee—for this is an expert Committee—to deal with the matter, for it is surely better that any debate we may have on this subject should take place in the light of the technical advice we shall get from such a Committee.

SERVICE WIDOWS' ORDINARY PENSIONS
2.39 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask Her Majesty's Government the question of which I have given private notice—namely, whether they are now able to state the further progress made in the review of the ordinary widows' and dependants' pensions scheme of the Forces, which was promised by the Minister of Defence in the Statement he made in this House on November 19 last.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY): My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord's Question, I am now able to announce the results of the review of awards to widows and children of officers and other ranks in the Services upon which, as my noble friend told the House on November 19, Her Majesty's Government have been engaged. The announcement relates to ordinary pensions and not to pensions paid to the dependants of those whose death was attributable to service. As the House knows, the basic rates and conditions of award have for the most part been unchanged for some 100 years, and therefore the position of these beneficiaries is radically different from that of other State pensioners. The criticisms which have been made by members of all Parties and by the public in general have been directed to three main points—namely, that the awards are inadequate; that proper awards are not made to widows and dependants of other ranks of very long service; and that the conditions of award are unfair and out of date.

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The scheme which I am now announcing on behalf of Her Majesty's Government does what is possible to meet these points. First, as regards rates of award, these have been increased throughout. At present, for example, the basic rate of pension for the widow of a captain in the Army is £50 a year, or £90 a year if the widow is entitled to increases under the pensions increase schemes. In future the rate will be £110 per annum. For a lieutenant-colonel's widow, the present basic rate is £90 per annum, or £140 with pension increases. The future rate will be £180 per annum. For a lieutenant-general's widow the rate will be increased from £187 10s., or £252 including pension increases, to £350 per annum. The new rates will not qualify for increases under the existing Pensions (Increase) Acts.
As regards other ranks, the present scheme is restricted to the widows of warrant officers, Class I, in the Army and warrant officers in the R.A.F. In future, the widows and children of other ranks will be eligible, provided the men in question have completed certain specified periods of long service. For example, the widow of a warrant officer, Class II, with 22 years' service, will receive 12s. 6d. a week, rising to £1 a week for 37 years' service, and the widow of a sergeant of 27 years' service will receive 10s. a week, rising to 15s. a week for 37 years' service. The new rate of allowance for officers' children will be £32 a year, compared with the old rate of £16, which with pensions increase is now £22. For the children of long service other ranks covered by the scheme the rate will be 3s. 6d. a week and can be drawn in addition to family allowances.
These ordinary widows' and children's pensions are payable in addition to any entitlement under the National Insurance Acts. These improved rates will apply to all widows and dependants at present receiving benefits under the current scheme, regardless of the date of retirement of the husband. In the case of benefits arising from the extension of the scheme to other ranks of long service, payments will be made to the dependants of those who have served since August 31, 1950. The increased rates will in all cases be payable from December 1, 1952.
There is one further benefit of some importance which I should mention. In cases where a regular officer or other
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rank who would have been entitled to a terminal grant under the 1950 scheme dies during his service, his widow—whether or not she is eligible for a pension—will be entitled to the gratuity which he would have received had he been invalided at the date of his death, though account will be taken of any postmortem allowances which she may have received. These gratuities will be paid to surviving widows in all eligible cases where death has occurred during service since 1st September, 1950.
I now turn to the conditions of award. The main changes are as follows. The means test will be abolished. The conditions that the officer must not be more than 25 years older than his wife and not over 60 at the time of marriage will also be abolished and, subject to certain safeguards, a wife who married a husband within a year of his death will also be eligible. Cases will also be admitted where an officer who marries after retirement is subsequently re-employed for certain minimum periods. Cases which have hitherto been excluded under all these restrictive rules will be reviewed. The present scheme is on the non-contributory principle which has obtained for the ordinary pensions scheme for the Services for over 100 years. When a widows' and dependants' scheme for the Civil Service was introduced in 1948 the Government of the day announced that it proposed to work out a similar scheme for the Services. Much consideration was given to such a scheme both by the late and by the present Government. A scheme was, in fact, prepared some two years ago and the opinion of a cross-section of all three Services in all ranks was taken upon it. But, in spite of the earnest consideration that had been given to it, the scheme proved unacceptable to the Services.
I hope the announcement of the Government's intentions will be generally welcomed in the House as evidence of the Government's desire to help those widows and children of men in the Forces who are still receiving pensions based on the rates fixed, in the main, a century ago. Furthermore, by thus improving the conditions of service of Regular officers and other ranks we shall help recruiting and encourage long-service engagements. Full details of the scheme will be issued in a White Paper

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which will be available when Parliament meets after the Christmas Recess.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and gallant Lord for making a long and comprehensive statement, and I am also grateful to the Government for having considered this matter so carefully. I am not yet quite clear exactly what the repercussions of this statement will be, and therefore I would ask the noble Lord whether at a later date, when the White Paper has been issued, we might have a debate on the subject, if it is felt necessary. So far as the means test is concerned, I think it is excellent that the Government should have abolished it. I feel that they have gone some way, although, as I say, I should not at this moment be prepared to commit myself as to whether they have gone all the way we should like, to meet the requirements of these widows and other dependants.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will find himself in full agreement when he has had time to consider the matter. At any rate, the Government have gone a long way. With regard to the earlier part of the noble Lord's remarks, I agree that the scheme should be studied in detail, and I feel sure that it will be possible to arrange a debate through the usual channels when we meet again.
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, it is difficult to follow a long statement of figures without some document showing the figures. My noble friend had the only copy handed out to us. Did I understand that the figures which the noble and gallant Lord announced were increases, or were they actual pensions? I think I am right in saying, for instance, that the widow of a sergeant having thirty-seven years' service will receive a pension of 15s. Does that mean that that is all the pension she will receive, or does it mean that this proposal is to add 15s. to her existing pension? I am sorry not to understand it, but the noble and gallant Lord will appreciate that it is impossible to follow a mass of figures without having them in a document before you.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: My Lords, in the normal course it would have
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been preferable to issue a White Paper at the time of the statement, but in deference to the wishes of noble Lords in all parts of the House, and in accordance with the undertaking given by my noble and gallant friend Lord Alexander, we thought it better to give the House a resumé of our proposals before we went away for Christmas. In answer to the second part of the noble and learned Earl's question, I should like to emphasise that this is an entirely new scheme for other ranks. Hitherto, apart from warrant officers in the Royal Air Force and warrant officers. Class I, in the Army, there has been no scheme for pensions for widows of other ranks. This is the first time that any Government has instituted a scheme giving pensions to widows of long-service other ranks. The figures I read out were the rates of pension which have now been instituted for the first time for those other ranks.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, as the noble and gallant Lord knows, through his courtesy I received a copy of his statement a minute or two before the House sat, but it is difficult to study it in so short a time. I should like to ask him one question, which he may be able to clear up, as the matter is a little ambiguous. Is the rate of £180, the new rate given to the widow of a lieutenant-colonel, to be given in addition to the pension increases which were part of the original pension? Can the noble Lord answer that question?
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: May I repeat the words of the statement? I think it is clear. For a lieutenant-colonel's widow the present basic rate is £90 per annum or £140 with pensions increases, where they are applicable. The new rate will be £180, which is the rate apart from any children's pensions which may accrue to the widow.
LORD OGMORE: In other words, it is an increase of £40 in her case, and in the case of a widow of a captain the increase would be £20—that is, from £90 to £110. I just want to know if we have the actual increase.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: In the case of a captain's widow the increase from the present rate where increases are applicable—and I understand they are not applicable in every case, the basic rate being £50—is from £90 to £110 for a

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captain's wife; and for a lieutenant-colonel's widow, as the noble Lord said, from £140 to £180.
LORD SALTOUN: As I had the honour of being associated with the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, in consultations which have taken place in this matter, I should like to thank the Government for a great step forward.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: When the noble and gallant Lord publishes particulars, will he give details of pensions applicable in the case of death on active service? Presumably the rates he enumerated are those for service pensions as distinct from those pensions attributable to disability or death on active service. It would be helpful to be able to compare the two.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: My Lords, I will certainly bring the noble Lord's comment to the appropriate quarter. I would remind the noble Lord, and the House, that we are dealing here not with attributable pensions, which are a separate question, but with questions of pensions awarded to the widows of officers and other ranks who die in the ordinary way, their pensions being earned by their long service.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: I think it is wholly inadequate.

MERCHANDISE MARKS BILL [H.L.]
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to amend the provisions of the Merchandise Marks Acts, 1887 to 1938, relating to false trade descriptions, and to imported goods bearing the trade mark of a manufacturer, dealer or trader in the United Kingdom, and to increase certain penalties under those Acts; and to move that this Bill be read a first time.
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Salisbury, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXI be considered in order to its being dispensed with for the purpose of giving the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill precedence over the other Orders of the Day.—(Earl Fortescue.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

USE OF THE LION RAMPANT
2.53 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To draw the attention of Her Majesty's Government first to the communication recently addressed by the Lord Lyon King of Arms to the Scottish Bowling Association informing them that they should not have the Lion Rampant on their crest, and secondly, in this connection, to the answer given to me in another place by the Secretary for Scotland on 2ndMay, 1922, that the Scottish Office circular of 18th June, 1907, relating to the flying of the Lion Flag with the device Or, a lion rampant, by private persons was still in force, and that, in point of fact, it was desired to encourage the display of this flag by private individuals; and, seeing that the use of the Lion Rampant by private individuals in Scotland comes into one and the same category whether on a flag or on a crest, to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will confirm that the Scottish Office circular of 18th June, 1907, is still in force, and that it is still desired to encourage the use of the Lion Rampant by private persons in Scotland.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, I understand that Lyon King of Arms has objected to the use by the Scottish Bowling Association of a device incorporating a coat of arms. The primary cause of the objection was not that the device incorporates a lion rampant, but that the arms have already been registered by others. Any person or body desiring to bear arms must either establish their right to do so or obtain a new grant of arms from Lyon King of Arms, which would be registered in the

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Lyon Register. Lyon's powers in this matter derive from the Lyon King of Arms Act, 1867, and are contained in various Statutes and in the common law of Scotland. The Secretary of State has no jurisdiction to interfere with Lyon's actions in enforcing the law in such matters. The flying of the Lion Rampant flag raises quite different considerations. It was made clear in 1934 that no objection would be taken to the display of this flag as a mark of loyalty to the Sovereign, and this advice has been repeated on subsequent occasions.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his answer, which I feel sure will be received with great gratification in most quarters in Scotland.

CAR IMPORTS IN NIGERIA
2.55 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the concern of importers of British motor cars in Nigeria caused by the action of the Nigerian Government in importing American motor cars at dollar cost when British cars are abundantly available, and further, will they appreciate that with so many markets import restricted British exporters have increasingly to rely upon markets of this nature.]
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, my noble friend has asked me to give the following reply. No expressions of concern from importers of British cars in Nigeria have reached Her Majesty's Government. The need to expand British exports is certainly well understood and is, indeed, in the forefront of Her Majesty's Government's policy for this industry. But the Nigerian Government consider that at present American cars are more suitable than British cars to conditions in certain parts of the territory, and after consultation with Her Majesty's Government they have been permitting limited imports this year for allocation to persons engaged in essential work involving travel over long distances and bad roads.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that a drop of 20 per cent. in the import of comparable British motor cars—and I stress the words "comparable British motor cars"—into Nigeria should have been sufficient to cause concern to Her Majesty's Government, let alone to the importers of British cars in Nigeria? Is the noble Earl further aware that in relation to the cars which he says, or implies, are not suitable for the roads or the conditions in Nigeria, one of the principal losers has been the British car which has just broken the record from London to Cape Town across South Africa, by eight and a half days; and that the other car which is a principal loser by this dollar release for the import of American motor cars is a British motor car which has had an outstanding success in the North American markets? I certainly hope that Her Majesty's Government will give added attention to this problem, which is threatening to grow.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that Her Majesty's Government are giving full attention to this point, and are in very close touch with the motor manufacturing industry. They do, however, consider that they are unable to resist entirely the request of the Nigerian Government to purchase a limited number of American motor cars for certain special tasks. I may add, further, that they are satisfied, or at least they are given to understand, that the new British cars are likely to meet the requirements of Nigeria more fully than some have done in the past.
EARL JOWITT: Does the fact that Her Majesty's Government feel that they cannot resist this request mean that Her Majesty's Government are satisfied that there is no British car which is as suitable as American cars to withstand the conditions of Nigerian roads?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: That is correct. For certain types of long-distance road conditions and climate, Her Majesty's Government are satisfied that the Nigerian request is reasonable.
EARL JOWITT: I assume that that has been brought to the notice of the British car manufacturers in order that they may remedy the defects, if there be defects?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: Certainly.
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDON: My Lords, may I ask whether this has been done in spite of the tremendous battle of the dollar gap? Surely Nigeria is as much concerned with this problem as is every other part of the Empire. Is not the root of the trouble that certain people, the armchair critics, think it is still clever to run down British goods, and especially British motor car manufacturers? Have these critics ever tried British cars on test in every part of Africa, as those who manufacture them have done?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this is certainly part of the dollar gap problem. The noble Marquess will appreciate that Nigeria is a big earner of dollars in her own right, and it is for that reason that certain considerations have to be given to her requirements. So far as running down British cars is concerned, I am sure that Her Majesty's Government would never do so. We are satisfied that British cars can meet fair competition in the fields where they are supreme.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am grateful for the last statement that British motor cars can meet fair competition. But will the noble Earl please look into this matter, and satisfy himself that this is not unfair competition? The noble Earl has just made a statement that Her Majesty's Government are in touch with the British motor industry. May I ask whether he has represented to the British motor industry that British cars are unsuitable to the extent that the Government have to release dollars for the importation of hundreds of American motor cars into Nigeria—at a time when Commonwealth Prime Ministers are in this country trying to stop such leakages as this?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I will certainly look into the matter, but it has already been fully discussed with the motor manufacturing industry, and I think they are fully aware of the attitude of both the Nigerian Government and other Colonial Governments in regard to this matter.
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDON: My Lords, can the Minister state the names of these American cars which are said to be so far superior to British cars,
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because the British cars are said to be completely unsuitable for the roads of Nigeria and other parts of Africa?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: That I cannot say.

CHARITABLE TRUSTS
3.2 p.m.
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will now make available the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Law and Practice relating to Charitable Trusts, and will state whether they accept its recommendations.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am making available to your Lordships in the Printed Paper Office this afternoon the Report of the Committee, under Lord Nathan's chairmanship, which has been considering changes in the Law and Practice (except as regards taxation) relating to Charitable Trusts in England and Wales. The Government are grateful to Lord Nathan and to the other members of the Committee for having undertaken this heavy and complicated task. The Report as a whole is receiving the careful consideration of the Government, who will announce their decision upon the recommendations in due course. The Government have, however, given urgent consideration to one aspect of the Report concerning imperfect trust instruments dealt with in Chapter 12, which is ancillary to the general problem, and have decided to introduce legislation dealing with it as soon as possible. I propose to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement of the purport of the proposed legislation.
Following is the statement referred to:

1. Subject to some minor differences which will appear in the later paragraphs of this statement, the Government accept in the main the proposals of the Committee set out in Chapter 12 of the Report for validating trust dispositions which authorise the application of property for both charitable and non-charitable purposes. They art not, however, satisfied that it is either right or necessary in the circumstances to make provision for the validation of trust dispositions for purposes which are wholly non-charitable.

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2. The Government propose to introduce as soon as opportunity occurs a Bill, which, if Parliament approves, will make provision on the lines set out in the following paragraphs.

3. Broadly speaking, the Bill will validate dispositions of property which satisfy the following conditions:—

(a) that the disposition was made before the 16th day of December, 1952;

(b) that the disposition is in terms which authorise the application of the property for purposes that comprise both charitable and non-charitable objects;

(c) that the disposition is invalid on grounds, such as remoteness or uncertainty, which would not invalidate it if its objects were wholly charitable; and

(d) that the disposition has been treated as valid.

4. From the passing of the Bill, property comprised in a disposition within its ambit will be made applicable by the Bill itself for charitable purposes only, unless a claim adverse to the disposition is successfully asserted in accordance with paragraph 5. The particular charitable purposes for which the property will thus be rendered applicable will be the purposes specified in the disposition so far as they are charitable.

5. A person who apart from the Bill would have a right to recover property comprised in a disposition within the ambit of the Bill on the ground of the invalidity of the disposition will be left free to assert that right if—

(a) at December 16, 1952, the disposition has been in operation for less than six years (that is to say, either was made within six years before that date or was subject down to that date, or to within six years before that date, to a prior interest which absorbed the whole of the income or profits of the property), and

(b) any necessary action has already been begun or is begun at any time before the expiration of a year from the passing of the Bill.

Subject as above, such rights will be extinguished by the Bill; except that provision will be made for any relaxation of the conditions mentioned at (a) and (b) which may be proper for safeguarding the position of persons who have been or are under disability or whose interests have been or are in reversion only.

6. Application before the passing of the Bill of property comprised in a disposition within the ambit of the Bill in accordance with the terms of the disposition will be treated as having been a proper application, and rights which would exist apart from the Bill either to render the persons by whom such application has been made personally liable on the ground of misapplication or to recover from any recipient of any of the trust property will be extinguished by the Bill, except in a case in which an action to assert such a right has been begun before December 16, 1952.

7. Forestalling of the proposed protective provisions by actions brought between December 16, 1952, and the passing of the Bill to assert rights falling within the classes of
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rights which the Bill is to extinguish will be met by provision for staying any such action at the passing of the Bill if it is then still pending or for restitution if it has been completed.

8. For the purposes of taxation, the effect of the Bill will be that dispositions falling within its ambit will become entitled to the normal relief available by statute to charitable bodies, but no right will be conferred to reclaim any payments of tax already made, whether by direct payment or by deduction of tax.

EARL JOWITT: My Lords, this is a difficult and complicated matter, and the noble and learned Lord will realise that it may be that we shall desire an opportunity for its full discussion. No doubt that can be arranged in due course through the usual channels.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: With regard to the noble and learned Earl's last observation, I have given notice that I propose to raise this question after the Recess, since I had the privilege of initiating this discussion in your Lordships' House two or three years ago.
LORD NATHAN: My Lords, with your indulgence and as chairman of the Charitable Trusts Committee, perhaps I may be allowed to say a few words on the statement which has just been made by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. First, let me say that I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for the expression of the thanks of Her Majesty's Government on the fulfilment of the task entrusted to my Committee, appointed in the first instance by Mr. Attlee, and, on the change of Government, invited by Mr. Churchill to continue. There has been no comprehensive review of the law and practice relating to charitable trusts since Lord Brougham's Committee was appointed in 1818 and made its full Report eighteen years later. Although my Committee has had to consider a vast amount of statutory and case law, and more general questions arising out of the changed economic and social conditions, I am glad to think that we have taken so much less time to make our Report than our predecessors did.
The decision announced by the Lord Chancellor to introduce legislation as soon as possible to deal with the problem of imperfect trust instruments—to which your Lordships will find that my colleagues and I drew attention in paragraphs 491–517 of Chapter 12 of our

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Report, and upon which the members of the Committee were unanimous—is in line with the views of my Committee that a policy statement should be made by Her Majesty's Government upon this particular matter in conjunction with the presentation of the Report to Parliament. I have had no opportunity of comparing the Government's proposals with the recommendations of the Report and therefore naturally I reserve comment on them. I wish to emphasise, as the Lord Chancellor's statement indicates, that this, though important, is not a problem of central importance—
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (VISCOUNT SWINTON): My Lords, I am greatly interested in the statement which the noble Lord is in the process of making, but we have some rules of order or convenience in this House, and one is that Question time is Question time and not a time for making general statements.
LORD NATHAN: I sought the indulgence of your Lordships, but I do not question that the noble Viscount is perfectly justified in raising the point he has raised. I was making a concluding sentence, but now, of course, I will refrain from finishing it.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, with regard to the point raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, a debate can, of course, be arranged through the usual channels. I hope the noble Viscount will not be in too great a hurry about it, because there is a good deal to digest in this remarkable Report of Lord Nathan and his Committee. I propose, if the noble Lord will allow me, to say how grateful I am—as, I am sure, are all the members of the profession to which I belong—for the Report which he and they have produced.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: The fact that I have put down my Question with no date named should be a sufficient answer to the noble and learned Lord's remark.

AGRICULTURE (SPECIAL DIRECTIONS) (MAXIMUM AREA OF PASTURE) EXTENSION OF PERIOD ORDER, 1952
3.6 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, this order extends until December 31, 1953, the order originally made in 1948 under Section 95 of the Agriculture Act, but the only part of Section 95 which is at present being used is subsection (2) (d), which authorises the Minister of Agriculture to give directions limiting the area of pasture on any particular holding. I do not think it is necessary for me to tell your Lordships how important it is that we should grow more food in this country, or, indeed, that we should maintain the tillage acreage. We had a severe decline in tillage acreage in 1949, 1950 and 1951. This decline was checked in 1952 by the Ploughing Grants Scheme. I do not suggest that this order will in itself mean that we shall have a great increase in tillage acreage, but there is a large measure of agreement amongst all your Lordships, I think, that it is necessary to have in reserve this power to deal with a few farmers who are not prepared to play any part in the drive to increase production. It is only when persuasion and the full resources of the advisory services have failed that we shall resort to compulsion under this order. I think your Lordships will agree that if such men are allowed to get away with complete non-co-operation it is discouraging to the farmer who is pulling his weight, while we have the present need for maximum production of food at home. I think your Lordships will agree that we must continue this order for another year, after which time we will review the position. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Agriculture (Special Directions) (Maximum Area of Pasture) Extension of Period Order, 1952, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday last, be approved.—(Lord Carrington.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

AGRICULTURE (MAXIMUM AREA OF PASTURE) (EXTENSION) (SCOTLAND) ORDER, 1952
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, my noble friend has set out the arguments for the continuation of the English order, and this Motion simply allows a similar order to be applied in Scotland by the Secretary of State. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Agriculture (Maximum Area of Pasture) (Extension) (Scotland) Order, 1952, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday last, be approved.—(The Earl of Home.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

APPLE AND PEAR MARKETING SCHEME, 1952
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, the draft Apple and Pear Marketing Scheme now before the House is the third scheme under the Agricultural Marketing Acts to be considered since the war, but the first since Her Majesty's Government took office. As your Lordships may recollect, my right honourable friend the Minister announced in another place some time ago that Her Majesty's Government are prepared to consider sympathetically schemes promoted under the Agricultural Marketing Acts which are designed to meet current needs and requirements for the efficient and economic marketing of home produce. The apple and pear industry has made great strides in the last fifteen to twenty years, and the home crop now represents a far greater proportion of our total supply than was the case before the war, whilst at the same time the quality of the produce has been much improved. Nevertheless, the marketing of horticultural produce presents special difficulties which are not to be solved by any easy and simple remedy. The difficulties, however, are of a kind which a strong central representative organisation of producers could do much to alleviate. This scheme affords ample scope for an energetic board to devise practical measures to this end. The board, in the first place, is to have twenty-two to twenty-four members, including twenty representatives of the producers and from two to four members appointed by the Minister.
The essential character of this scheme is regulatory and not commercial. There
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are three powers which are particularly important and which I ask your Lordships' permission to mention. The first allows the board to prescribe the terms on which apples and pears may be sold, and also the form of contracts for them if sold growing. The second authorises the board to fix different minimum prices on sales of apples and pears for the various processing uses. Thirdly, they have power to determine from time to time the descriptions of apples and pears that may be sold for purposes other than processing. The consumer is safeguarded, not only by the committee of investigation set up by the Minister but also by the powers which are possessed by my right honourable friend under Section 2 of the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1949, and which enable him to issue directions if he considers that any particular action of the board is contrary to the public interest. In addition, we have inserted in this scheme, at the Minister's instance, an obligation which requires the board to give notice to the Minister, or to any person nominated by him, of their intention to make a prescription that gives effect to any of the three powers that I have just mentioned. I hope your Lordships will think that this is a good scheme. Accordingly, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Apple and Pear Marketing Scheme, 1952, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday last, be approved.—(Lord Carrington.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends, I should like to say that we welcome the principle of this very important marketing scheme. It was the late Labour Government who introduced two of these marketing schemes for dealing with agricultural produce, and we are certainly in favour of such schemes if the producers want to sell their produce in that way. At the same time, I must reserve the position of my Party on the detailed proposals of this scheme. As the noble Lord opposite is aware, the history of this scheme has been far from uncontroversial. Objections were lodged and a public inquiry was held. As a result of a consideration of the objections and of the report of the public inquiry, the Minister has met some of the objections wholly and some in part, and others he

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was unable to meet at all. While, therefore, I am perfectly satisfied with the interesting statement that the noble Lord has made, I think I ought to warn him, in all fairness, that when this scheme is dealt with in another place, it may not be altogether unexpected if there is a request for a much fuller statement and a good deal more information from the Government about it.
3.14 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I support my noble friend in what he has said, but there are one or two things I should like to ask the Minister. This draft scheme is the equivalent of a Bill, and this is the only opportunity that your Lordships will have of debating it. As far as your Lordships are concerned, it did not see the light of day until Thursday last. That does not give a very long time in which to be able to digest it and try to be constructively critical. The lucid manner in which the noble Lord has explained the scheme to your Lordships, of course, does away with that necessity to a great extent, but we should have liked more time in which to consider whether we should not ask the noble Lord one or two questions.
I have two questions I should like to ask. Under this scheme, the marketing board has the power to enforce minimum prices for apples, and any registered producer must conform to that requirement. Would the Ministry consider that at some time it might be in the public interest, as opposed to the producer interest, to fix also maximum prices for apples? It might save some of the exploitation of housewives that goes on at various periods of the year, one of which we are fast approaching at the present day. The next question I should like to ask the noble Lord is whether I am right it saying that everybody who has one acre of apple trees, or apple trees growing on one acre of land, has to become a registered producer?
LORD CARRINGTON: If he sells.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: What does the noble Lord mean by "selling"? I can sell some if I want to, or I can give some away. May I give away to my friends any of those I have to sell? And is not the area of one acre very small? It means that the
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scheme would take in any large-sized garden. One acre of apple trees is not very much. Would the noble Lord tell me whether I have to grow a specified number of apple trees on that acre—does it matter whether I have only one apple tree, and nothing else, or a lot of apple trees On that acre? These are some of the questions I should have liked to ask the noble Lord. Does he not think that in future it would be advisable to bring these draft schemes before your Lordships at a slightly more convenient time? We should like to assist the Government, and I am sure they would like our help in a scheme of this nature, especially the help of those of us who claim, perhaps on very flimsy grounds, to know something about marketing. Perhaps when the next scheme is presented more time will be afforded us for its consideration.
LORD SALTOUN: Surely, if you have one acre of apple trees, you must have about fifty apple trees, and you are pretty well in the business.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: But suppose you have only about half-a-dozen apple trees?
LORD CARRINGTON: I am sorry it is thought that short notice has been given of this scheme. It has been on the Order Paper since, I think, last Thursday. I have been both in the House and at the Ministry of Agriculture and I have not had any complaints from anybody, either from the noble Earl who speaks for agriculture on the Opposition side of this House or from anybody, regretting that we were taking it too quickly. If there had been complaints, I should have seen what I could do about it. Until the noble Lord rose and made his observations, I was not aware that there was any question of our taking it too quickly for your Lordships. As regards the two questions which the noble Lord asked me, I may say that the consumer is very well safeguarded under this scheme. I think the noble Lord is concerned about the consumer. In the first place, anybody aggrieved has a right of appeal to the Minister, who can refer the matter to a committee of investigation. In addition, the Minister has the power which I have already mentioned, of giving directions to the board if he feels that any of the powers which they are using are being used contrary to the public interest.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I thank the noble Lord very much. I cannot appeal to the Board, can I, that I have been charged too much for apples? My point was that, as the Scheme lays down a minimum price, does the noble Lord not think that at some time it should lay down also a maximum price?
LORD CARRINGTON: If the board lays down a minimum price and, in the opinion of the Minister, it is too high, he can intervene in the public interest. If the price which the noble Lord is charged for his apples is too high, then he need not buy them. The minimum price will no doubt be perfectly satisfactory. If it is not, the Minister can intervene under Section 2 of the Act of 1949. As regards the noble Lord's question about the acre of apple trees, I may inform him that it is either an acre of ground or fifty apple trees—you must have fifty apple trees to the acre. I assure the noble Lord that nothing under this scheme will prevent him from giving apples from his garden to his friends, if he wishes to do so.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL
3.21 p.m.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

EMERGENCY LAWS (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL [H.L.]
3.22 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[THE EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
Clause 1 [Permanent enactment of provisions contained in certain Defence Regulations]:
On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think it would be convenient if at an early stage I said a few words of introduction to the
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Committee stage of this Bill, because it occupies a rather curious position in our procedure. The Committee will remember that when I moved an Address that certain emergency regulations should be continued, by your Lordships' consent the debate ranged over a wide area—in substance, the area covered by this Bill. But so far as the Bill itself is concerned, I moved the Second Reading in purely formal terms, and there was no discussion upon it, for the reason that there was no common principle running through a number of wholly disparate provisions. I thought, therefore, that it would be convenient to the Committee (and it is a course which, if they think fit, I propose to take) that in regard to each clause of the Bill I should say a word or two of introduction in order that the Committee may see what they have not yet seen, because there has been no discussion on Second Reading—namely, what it is that they are asked to legislate about. I hope that will be a convenient course to the Committee.
The first clause provides that the provisions set out in the First Schedule to the Act shall have permanent effect. I propose, if it is convenient, to defer comment on the clause until I come to the Schedule, because I shall then have a few words to say in regard to each provision of the Schedule. I thought it would be convenient to defer that until a number of noble Lords who have down Amendments after Clause 1 have had an opportunity of moving them. That course will enable them to move their Amendments and not to wait until the whole of the Bill has been discussed. Therefore, so far as Clause 1 is concerned I propose, if it is convenient to the Committee, to say no more at present.
LORD SILKIN: I will say no more than that the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord is one which commends itself to this side of the House.
Clause 1 agreed to.
LORD LAWSON LORD LAWSON moved, after Clause 1 to insert the following new clause:
Permanent enactment of Regulation 58 AE of Defence (General) Regulations, 1939.
". Regulation fifty-eight AE (Training, etc., of persons employed in coal mines) of the Defence (General) Regulations, 1939, so far as it was in force on the 10th of December, 1950, shall have permanent effect."

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The noble Lord said: I beg to move the new clause standing in my name on the Marshalled List. At first sight the withdrawal of Regulation 58AE takes away the right to training of boys who enter mines. I must say that I was rather shocked when I first saw that regulation. The intention of my clause is to make permanent the regulation for training boys who enter the mines. It may seem to the Committee rather an unusual subject to find in the Defence Regulations. The truth is that the first regulations for the training of boys who enter the mines to become miners were laid down during the war, and consequently they found their place in the Defence Regulations. Those who have followed the subject will remember (I do not think anybody will forget) the setting up by the late Ernest Bevin of what was known as the "Bevin boys" scheme, which provided for boys the alternative of going into the mines instead of into the Services, and generally extended the right of training to all boys who entered the mines. I do not wish to take up time over this matter, except to say that it was only when we in the mines had this change put upon us that the public realized, almost with a shock, that we had never trained boys who entered the mines to become miners. Of course, that did not shock persons like myself. It was the kind of thing I had got used to. I entered the mines at twelve years of age, and within a week I was driving a pony. Far from guiding the pony and training it to do its work, I hardly knew my way about myself. But at one time that was the common state of affairs. Now we have become used to the idea that boys should have something like three months' training before they take on any occupation in a mine.
I realise, of course, that there is a legal side to this question, and the reason I am moving the insertion of this clause is, in the main, to give the Lord Chancellor an opportunity of explaining and setting on record what the legal position would be, because the bare fact seems to be that as the Bill is at present drafted the regulation giving the right to training is being withdrawn, and nothing is being put in its place. That may not be the case. This is the sort of subject upon which one could spend a good deal of lime, for it lifts a veil from the Middle Ages or the
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Dark Ages period in the history of the miners. I once touched the dead body of a school friend of mine, a boy of about the same age as myself, and that was within a few weeks of my entering the mine. In my time, I have seen some very tragic happenings. The training of boys naturally lessens the danger to themselves, and it also lays the foundation upon which they can develop a mastery of their craft. When I was in the mine, I always felt that what this regulation for training has done should have been done in the beginning of the nineteenth century—in the sense that it makes a boy an apprentice to what is, in truth, a great craft. Before the training of one who enters upon the life of a miner is finished, he has to be highly skilled in one of the most highly skilled trades that exists.
There is a type of mind which leads its possessor to say: "Oh, you just dig coal." As a matter of fact, to be a good miner, you have to know the natures of coal and of stone, and to humour each of those minerals according to its nature. If you do not, then you soon find yourself in trouble. This training, for the first lime in the history of coal mining, not only provided for the training of boys but made them apprentices to that great craft called "coal mining." I am sure that the Lord Chancellor will have some adequate explanation to give to the Committee upon this matter, but in order that we may make sure that the regulations for training become permanent, I have put this Amendment down on the Marshalled List. I formally beg to move.
Amendment moved,
After Clause 1, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Lawson.)
3.35 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Nobody questions the authority with which the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, speaks on anything to do with mines and miners, and one can well understand a legitimate apprehension being felt lest the safeguard of a regulation is taken away and nothing is put in its place. But I think I can assure the Committee, and the noble Lord in particular, that that fear is quite unfounded. The proper place to put regulations dealing with coal mines is in provisions made under the Coal Mines Act and not in Defence Regulations; and that is, in short, what we have done. During

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the war, on January 1, 1944, an order was made under a Defence Regulation providing for the training, supervision and medical examination of persons employed in or about mines. That regulation, so far as two-thirds of it—namely, training and supervision—were concerned, was superseded by an expanded code of requirements in the Coal Mines Training (General) Regulations of September 28, 1945, which were made under powers conferred upon the Minister by the Coal Mines Act of 1911. Those provisions have now been in force for seven years and have given satisfaction. If in any respect they have not given satisfaction, an amended regulation can be made. So the regulation which the noble Lord wants to put back into part of our permanent law has already been superseded as to two-thirds of it by the regulation made in the proper way, after proper consultation with the industry. I repeat that if the noble Lord, with all his experience, thinks there is any flaw in that regulation, it can be amended in the proper way after proper consultation.
One part of the Defence Regulation was left still standing—namely, that part which dealt with medical examination. It was merely in order that that part might continue to stand that the regulation was not long since revoked. As to that, by the Coal Mines (Medical Examination) Regulations of 1952, new regulations have been made which supersede and take the place of that part of the old regulation made under the Defence Regulation. There is a new regulation which comes into force on the tenth of this month. It has been drawn up after consultation with all the persons concerned, and, so far as I know, it gives and will give complete satisfaction. If in any respect it does not give satisfaction, then the proper approach can be made, and a new regulation supplementing any part of it can be made in due course. I hope that what I have said has satisfied the noble Lord and the Committee that there is no need whatever for the inclusion in our permanent law of this regulation made under the Defence Regulations. In fact, it would be a retrograde step, for it would enable these regulations to be made by a stroke of a pen by the Minister, instead of after due consultation with all the parties interested. In view of what I
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have said, I regret that I cannot accept the Amendment which the noble Lord has proposed.
LORD LAWSON: I thank the noble and learned Lord for his plain and simple explanation, and also for his statement as to what the law is at the present time. I am sure that there are many who will greatly appreciate the statement which he has made, and the fact that it is now on record that there are other powers to make regulations, so that the power is practically permanent. In the circumstances, I ask leave of the Committee to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS LORD MILNER OF LEEDS moved, after Clause 1 to insert the following new clause:
Permanent enactment of Regulation 60 of Defence (General)Regulations, 1939.
". Regulation sixty (Safety and welfare of factory workers) of the Defence (General) Regulations, 1939, so far as it was in force on the 10th of December, 1950, shall have permanent effect."
The noble Lord said: Your Lordships will remember that in the White Paper headed Continuance of Emergency Legislation, on the first page the Government propose to revoke before December 10 certain regulations among the Defence (General) Regulations. The purpose of this Amendment, and of those which my noble friends will move, is either to have those regulations which the Government propose to revoke made permanent or to obtain a satisfactory explanation as to why that course should not be adopted. My particular Amendment is to make Regulation 60, which relates to the safety and welfare of factory workers, have permanent effect. That regulation seems to mea very important one. It is headed, "Safety and welfare of factory workers," and provides as follows:
"For the purpose of securing the safety, health, or welfare of persons employed in the performance of services, or engaged in operations, which appear to him to be essential for any of the purposes as specified in subsection (1) of section one of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945[2], in circumstances which, in his opinion, are or are likely to be dangerous to life or limb or injurious to health, the Minister of Labour and National Service…may by order make such provision as he considers desirable with respect to persons employed in any premises, or engaged in any operations, to which any of the provisions of the Factories Act,1937, apply; and, without prejudice to the generality of the power

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aforesaid, any such order may in particular contain such requirements with respect to the safety of workers, or the provision of medical attendance, nourishment, clothing, facilities for taking meals, rest, or recreation, or facilities for transport, and may impose such prohibitions, restrictions, or obligations in respect of the use of machinery, appliances, materials, or processes, as appear to the Minister to be expedient for the purposes aforesaid."
Your Lordships will appreciate that that is a very wide regulation, indeed, and it gives power to the Minister to make regulations with regard to many most essential services or safety precautions for the workers engaged in industry. It may be that most of those powers are authorised by the various Factory Acts. These regulations, however, enable a more speedy procedure to be adopted than that under the Factory Acts. Under the Acts advertising and other steps are required, whereas under the Defence Regulation; the Minister may make orders on his own volition. Therefore, as I say, it may be that all these powers are contained in the various Factory Acts, and it may be that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor will be able to give an assurance on this point. There is one power which is rather modern, the power to compel the provision of facilities for meals—that is, the provision of canteens. I should like to be assured that this power, in particular will continue to exist if this order is done away with. I do not know how far the Government have consulted either the Trades Union Congress or the appropriate trade union before proposing to revoke this order. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor can also give some assurance on that point, in which event I hope that I may be able, with the approval of my noble friends, to take a certain course with regard to this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 1 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Milner of Leeds.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: With such changes as the nature of the subject matter demands, my answer to the noble Lord, Lord Milner, is substantially the same as that which I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Lawson. The purpose of Defence Regulation 60 was to enable the
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proper authority—in this case the Home Secretary, and at one time the Minister of Labour—to make quickly, and without going through the procedure prescribed in the Factory Acts, the necessary provisions for safety and welfare in factories. An adequate statutory procedure had already been laid clown in Section 60 and Section 46 of the Factory Act of 1937. I think those sections confer precisely similar powers to those contained in the regulation. It is significant that no orders have been made under this Defence Regulation since the end of the war. It has been found sufficient to make use of the regular statutory procedure under the Factory Acts. It was decided to keep Regulation 60 alive for some time in order that an opportunity might be given to replace under the regular procedure orders which had been made under the emergency procedure.
Again I will say this: if there is any regulation of which the noble Lord can think which it is desirable should be introduced and which has not new been introduced under the regular procedure to replace the emergency procedure, I shall be glad if he will inform me of it and I will acquaint the proper Department. We think there is nothing which has not already been satisfactorily provided for by orders under the Factory Acts procedure; but if there is anything, we will see to it. So far as canteens are concerned (I speak from memory and I shall check it), I think there is ample power under the regular legislation to give either a general direction in regard to classes of factories or a special direction in regard to a particular factory for the establishment of canteens. But I will certainly have that point checked. There was one other point, I think—in regard to consultation. Again I speak subject to correction, but the ordinary procedure of the Factory Acts requires consultation and I have no doubt that consultations have been held. I hope that I have satisfied the noble Lord.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: I am greatly obliged to the noble and learned Lord, and having regard to what he has said and the assurances he has given, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.45 p.m.
LORD WISE LORD WISE moved, after Clause 1, to insert the following new clause:
Permanent Enactment of Regulation 62 AA of Defence (General)Regulations, 1939.
". Regulation sixty-two AA (Penalty for allowing dogs to stray on allotments) of the Defence (General) Regulations, 1939, so far as it was in force on the 10th of December, 1950, shall have permanent effect."
The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name. As your Lordships will remember, this regulation has received some consideration in this House during the last few weeks. As it was first raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, I feel that he, rather than I, should be moving this Amendment. In the food production debate on November 11, the matter was raised by Lord Hudson, who was rather perturbed because this regulation was being revoked. It was brought in during the time the noble Viscount was Minister of Agriculture and he seemed to feel strongly that this was not the right moment to revoke it. I have before me a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT of that debate, in which the noble Viscount gave several reasons why the Defence Regulation should still stand, the main reason being that at the present time, when the country is in need of a very high production of food, nothing which may jeopardise or in any way hinder food production on allotments should be allowed; and in this I agree with the noble Viscount.
The regulation is a little difficult. It deals only with the question of dogs found straying on allotments. It says:
"It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence against this regulation to prove that he had taken all reasonable steps to ensure that the dog did not stray."
I think the noble Viscount was most concerned with the fact that dogs are not kept under control around our cities and towns and are allowed to stray on allotments to the detriment of food production.
There is another point about this regulation. A notice has to be posted on allotments warning the public that the regulation is in force on these allotments. I understand that under the Allotments Act, 1922, it was possible to take action against people who caused damage on allotments, but there is nothing in that Act about the straying of dogs. If I may read the appropriate section of the Allotment Act, 1922, it says:
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"Any person who by any act done without lawful authority or by negligence causes damage to any allotment, garden, or any crop or fence or building thereon shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding five pounds.
"But this provision shall not apply unless notice of this provision is conspicuously displayed on or near the allotment garden."
That does not seem to me quite to cover the same matter arising under the Defence Regulation. It is clear that for trespass and damage a person can proceed to take action, but the Defence Regulation deals with rather a different matter. I feel that it might be desirable to consider whether, in present circumstances—and I want to stress the words, "in present circumstances"—the Defence Regulation should not be left on the Statute Book and action taken if dogs are allowed unnecessarily to stray on allotments around the towns and cities. As I commenced by saying, I think we are all agreed that no action should be taken which would jeopardise the food productive efforts, not only of allotment holders, but of all concerned in food production at the present moment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 1, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Wise.)
LORD CARRINGTON: As the noble Lord, Lord Wise, has said, Regulation 62AA makes it an offence on the part of any owner if his dog is found straying on an allotment. It was originally introduced in order to protect, particularly, war-time allotments, which were often unfenced. There are two main reasons why we decided that the regulation ought to be revoked. The first is that there are not nearly so many temporary allotments now as there were during the war; and also, the difficulties of fencing those that remain are not so great as they were then. Secondly, the regulation suffered from the defect that it created a criminal offence if a dog was allowed to stray on an allotment, even if no damage was done. Her Majesty's Government felt that such a departure from the normal law of trespass required a great deal of justification. We do not think, in the present circumstances, it can be justified. For the noble Lord's information, I may say that this regulation has not been used very much. There have been no convictions under it for the last two years, and only six successful convictions under it in the whole time that it has been in

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operation. But the fact that we are dispensing with this regulation does not at all mean that we consider allotments of less importance now than they used to be. There is no need for me to stress the importance of their contribution to food production. One also appreciates that they are important from the social and recreational point of view. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Wise, has mentioned, allotment holders still have legal protection against damage to their property under the section of the Allotments Act, 1922, to which he referred. Even if that Act does not (as I think it does) cover the point, they still have their remedy at Common Law. I am sorry, therefore, that I am unable to accept the noble Lord's Amendment.
EARL JOWITT: The remedy at Common Law, of course, is the right to bring an action for damages. That is a quite unreal and unpractical thing in the case of small damage, because in all probability the costs which the person bringing the action would have to pay would exceed the damages he would get, and he would be out of pocket by bringing the action. What are here involved are criminal proceedings. I forget when this regulation was first introduced—I think it was in the early days of Mr. Churchill's Government. I seem to remember having a considerable body of evidence about the damage which was done to allotments by dogs. As my noble friend has said, in the interests of food production it is vitally important that that sort of damage should be stopped. I suggest that Lord Carrington's differentiation between temporary and permanent allotments is not to the point at all. Dogs do not think to themselves: "This is a temporary allotment, and therefore I may stray on it." They are just as likely to stray on a permanent allotment as they are on a temporary allotment. With the greatest respect to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, there is no point in that whatsoever—at least, I humbly submit to the Committee that there is no point in it.
If it is desired to stop dogs from straying on allotments, I venture to think that this power is most useful. Here is a fact that you can prosecute the owner of a dog if his dog strays on an allotment, though it is a defence, if I remember rightly, for the owner of the dog to say: "I did take
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reasonable steps," or "I did not anticipate that my dog would stray." But it really is not to the point to say that dogs used to stray." That is why we introduced the legislation in the clays of the Coalition Government. Everybody wanted this regulation then, because there was a great danger of damage being done to allotments by dogs. You pass this regulation, you make it—subject to the point I have suggested—a criminal offence for a man to let his dog go on allotments, and in the result, whereas dogs used to stray on allotments, they do not do so now. The noble Lord is now proposing to abolish that state of affairs, and we shall get back to the situation which induced us to pass the regulation. It was not passed in the days of the Coalition Government for fun or without adequate evidence; it was passed because in these days we were satisfied that dogs were doing real damage to allotments. That has now stopped. In spite of the Act of 1922, they did damage to allotments. I suggest that the Act of 1922 is no sort of answer. Does the noble Lord say that you can prosecute a man under the Act of 1922 if his dog strays on an allotment?
LORD CARRINGTON: If it does damage.
EARL JOWITT: Under the Act of 1922?
LORD CARRINGTON: Yes.
EARL JOWITT: The noble Lord has no doubt taken advice upon it, but I am surprised to hear that. If that is so, you alter the whole position. How does the defence stand? Is it a defence under the Act of 1922 to prove that you did not know your dog was likely to go there? At the present moment, under the Defence Regulations about which my noble friend is talking, the position is that of the dog does damage there is prima-facie liability. If you are the owner of the dog you can get out of that liability by saying that you had no grounds for thinking that your dog would do damage. The regulation stopped damage by dogs. What is the position under the Act of 1922? If the accused person says, "I did not know my dog was going there," is that a defence? I am surprised to hear that this comes under the Act of 1922 at all. The noble Lord will perhaps tell us. We all want to be satisfied that unnecessary

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damage will not be done to allotment gardens, be they temporary or permanent, in view of the serious food shortage with which this country may be confronted. We want to be satisfied that effective steps are available to deal with this menace, and to deal with it as effectively as we did in the days of the Coalition Government by this regulation, which the Labour Government decided to continue. If the noble Lord can satisfy us that he really has machinery to deal with the matter, we shall be only too pleased that the regulation should go. But merely to say that dogs do not trespass now like they used to in their unregenerate days proves nothing at all: it merely shows what an effective regulation we passed, and how wise the Labour Government were to keep it on. I would ask the noble Lord to look at this point again.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Surely, the noble and learned Earl is quite wide of the mark. This regulation makes it a criminal offence for a dog to stray on an allotment, whether it does damage or not. I should have thought that every man in these days would resist such a proposal, unless it was felt to be absolutely necessary. If the noble and learned Earl strays on an allotment, that is not a criminal offence, although it may be a trespass and he may be liable if he does damage. He is treating the dog, and the owner of the dog, worse than he would treat any ordinary citizen. There is no need in the world for this power. It was just because there was no need that the Government in which the noble and learned Earl was an ornament resisted an Amendment to the Allotment Act, 1950, which would have made it an offence to allow a dog to stray on allotments. In all these years, this regulation has been used only in six cases, and nobody can suggest that it acted as a deterrent to the dog, because, as I pointed out before, the dog could not read. I hope sincerely that noble Lords on both sides of the House will reject this Amendment, for it really adds nothing to the production of food and is a grave encroachment upon the liberty of the subject.
LORD WISE: May I ask one question before we decide on this point? Can the noble Lord say how many allotments there are in the country, and how many are affected in this case?
LORD CARRINGTON: That was my point about the temporary allotment with which the noble and learned Earl made play. There were a great many more allotments during the war than existed before. In most cases the temporary allotments were unfenced. It is very much easier for a dog to stray on to an unfenced allotment than it was for a dog to stray on a fenced allotment before the war. In 1943 there were 585,000 allotments in this country, and at the present time there are about 200,000. Most of the decrease has been in unfenced allotments.
LORD WISE: In view of the information which has been given by noble Lords opposite, I crave the leave of the House to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.3 p.m.
LORD WISE LORD WISE moved, after Clause 1 to insert the following new clause:
Permanent enactment of Regulation 66 of Defence (General)Regulations. 1939
". Regulation sixty-six (Delegation of functions of Minister of Agriculture) of the Defence (General) Regulations, 1939, so far as it was in force on the 10th of December, 1950, shall have permanent effect."
The noble Lord said: The new clause which I now beg to move is somewhat different from the last. With the leave of the House I shall have to deal with this in two parts. First of all, may I call the attention of noble Lords to the regulation concerned? It is Regulation 66, which says:
"The Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries may by order provide for delegating, to such extent and subject to such restrictions as may be specified in the order, to any person or body of persons appointed or approved by him all or any of his functions under any of the following Regulations, that is to say, Regulations sixty-two, sixty-two A …"
I should like first of all to deal with Regulation 62, which is concerned with the control of cultivation and termination of agricultural tenancies. At the outset, I should like to refer to the White Paper which deals with these two regulations. If noble Lords have the White Paper before them, they will see on the first page that Regulation 66 is revoked and then, on the second page—which gives a long list of other regulations—they will find that Regulation 62 (Control of Cultivation and Termination of Agricultural Tenancies) still stands and will be kept in force, although it is proposed to

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revoke some regulations, in part. Regulation 62 is mentioned there, as also is 62A. Now in regard to Regulation 62, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, during the Second Reading debate on November 20, said this (OFFICIAL, REPORT, Vol. 179, Col. 454):
"I wish to give an example of one or two cases of partial revocation, and one which I would mention is paragraphs 1 to 3 of Regulation 62. That is a regulation which authorises the issue of directions about the cultivation, management and use of land for agricultural purposes."
Regulation 62 deals with other matters besides that particular point which was mentioned by the Lord Chancellor. Paragraphs 1 to 3 certainly deal with the cultivation of land, the question of giving up of tenancies and the use of force, if necessary, in order to obtain possession of land which has been subject to a notice to quit. But there are other provisions in that particular regulation, what I want to ask the noble Lord opposite is: What has happened in regard to those provisions? There are paragraphs (3A), (4), and so on. I am not quite certain whether they are revoked under this revocation of Regulation 66. I should also like to know whether the power of the Minister of Agriculture to give directions as regards the cultivation, management and use of land is covered in the Agriculture Act, 1947. If Regulation 66 is revoked, and Regulation 62 falls also, I am anxious to know whether the powers which are given to the Minister of Agriculture under paragraph 1 of Regulation 62 will still be available under the Agriculture Act, 1947, or some other Act. The same applies to paragraph 4 and following paragraphs.
Regulation 62A, which is bracketed with Regulation 66, deals with the question of allotments from a different angle A portion of this particular regulation is still retained in the Bill which is before us—I believe under Clause 5. Under Regulation 62A any local authority which is in occupation of land may either adapt the land for use as allotment gardens or let the land as allotment gardens to individuals or to societies, and can also cultivate the land. Under the new Bill which is before us, that adaptation of land for use as allotment gardens is omitted, as also is the question of the cultivation of any land by the local authority. I want the Government to explain why the
1022
power which the local authority had to adapt land for allotments has been withdrawn, and also why the power which the local authority had to cultivate land for the purposes of raising a crop and selling that crop in the interests of the community has also been withdrawn under the Bill now before us. I hope that I have made the position plain from this side of the House in regard to all three of the Defence Regulations which are dealt with in this particular Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 1, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Wise.)
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, this is a rather complicated matter, but I think I can make it plain to the noble Lord, Lord Wise. Defence (General) Regulation 66 empowered the Minister of Agriculture to delegate these functions under certain specific Defence Regulations. The reason why we have revoked No. 66 is that, with two exceptions, all the other regulations which gave the Minister functions which he could delegate under Regulation 66 have now been revoked. The two exceptions to this are Regulation 62A, and paragraphs (3A) and (4) of Regulation 62. All the rest of Regulation 62 has been revoked at one time or another by Order in Council, and the only two paragraphs of Regulation 62 which remain are paragraphs (3A) and (4). The noble Lord will have noticed that Regulation 62A, which deals with the power of local authorities to cultivate land and to let land for allotments, is reproduced, with minor modifications, in Clause 5 of this Bill. In this slightly revised form the question of delegating any power of the Ministers does not arise. The noble Lord asked why the power of local authorities to adapt land for the purpose of letting allotments has been left out. The reason is that most of the land which local authorities hold is for open spaces or public parks. While this clause gives local authorities power to go on letting allotments which they already have adapted, it was felt that it would be wrong now to use public spaces and public parks for allotments and that there was no reason why this power of adaptation should be kept.
LORD WISE: The noble Lord mentioned the question of cultivation by local authorities referred to in Clause 5 of the

1023
new Bill. I cannot find that at the moment. That particular clause seems to deal only with the question of letting.
LORD CARRINGTON: I beg the noble Lord's pardon. That was my mistake. It is in fact concerned with letting. Paragraphs (3A) and (4) of Regulation 62 deal with contracts of occupation of land requisitioned by the Minister and compensation for improvement effected since requisition. In the first case, paragraph (3A) contains its own delegation, and in the second no delegation is necessary. So far as these regulations are concerned, the Minister's power to delegate has been revoked because he has nothing, in fact, to delegate.
LORD MCENTEE: This situation arose in another place. I quoted the case of a sewage farm in the constituency which I used to represent. We put this sewage farm to a different use, the sewage being dealt with by the London County Council. The farm was at that time about 180 acres in area. We proposed to use it for various purposes, including a sports ground, but the preparation for this different use of the sewage farm took us from four to five years, because of the nature of the soil after it had been used for so many years as a sewage farm. Would the new condition under this Bill prevent a local authority from using the land as we were advised by the Ministry at that time to use it and as, in fact, we did use it?
LORD CARRINGTON: All this does is to revoke Regulation 62, which enables local authorities to let certain land as allotments. We have revoked the regulation because the powers which it gave will now become part of permanent legislation. Noble Lords will find it on page 5 of this Bill.
LORD WISE: In view of the explanation which the noble Lord has given. I am satisfied that what I had in mind has not been lost—I was in difficulty about the question of cultivation. That being so, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.16 p.m.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved, after Clause 1, to insert the following new clause:
Continuation of Regulation 68 CA of Defence (General) Regulations, 1939
". Regulation sixty-eight CA (Restriction on conversion of housing accommodation to
1024
use for non-residential purposes) of the Defence (General) Regulations, 1939, so far as it was in force on the 10th of December, 1950, shall have effect by virtue of this section; but Her Majesty may, by Order in Council, at any time revoke this Regulation either in whole or in part."
The noble Lord said: The subject matter of this Amendment is Regulation 68 CA, which deals with the question of dwelling-houses which have been used for that purpose at any time since 1938, and which prohibits a change of use except with the permission of the local authority, subject to an appeal to the Minister. We discussed this point somewhat superficially on November 20 on the occasion of the debate on the Prayer; and at that time I was unaware that it was proposed by the Minister to issue a direction in its place. Through the courtesy of the Department I have been shown a copy of the direction, and I should like to deal with it. The regulation, unlike many others, has been considerably used. When local authorities have been consulted about revoking the regulation, I think I am right in saying that all of them—local housing and local planning authorities—have opposed its revocation, even though they were aware of the alternative which was being proposed. I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord who is to reply why the Minister thinks it necessary to impose this direction, this alternative, upon the local authorities, against their wishes. Is it a case of the "gentleman in Whitehall knows best"? I thought that he no longer knew best under the present Government. But this is certainly a case where a direction is being imposed upon the authorities.
If it were merely a case of the direction being in exactly the same form as the regulation, one would have less to say about it. But the fact is that it is not quite in the same form; and I want to refer to two differences that exist. At any rate, the public are enabled, with a certain amount of diligence, to discover Regulation 68 CA, read it, and know how it affects them, whereas the general public are not able readily to discover the direction or to get a copy of it. The direction is normally the local authority's concern and is not, generally speaking, available to the public. Therefore a regulation is, of the two, more advantageous to the general public than a direction is.
But there are two points, apart from the matter of procedure (with which I have no quarrel), to which I should like to draw the attention of the noble and learned Lord. They refer to the direction. In the case of Regulation 68CA, it is stated to apply to
"any housing accommodation which has been used for residential purposes at any time since the thirty-first day of December, nineteen hundred and thirty-eight."
In the case of the direction, there is a reference to premises which involves a change of use from use as a dwelling. I think the noble and learned Lord will readily see that the terms of the regulation are considerably wider than the terms of the direction. The regulation applies to any premises which have been used as a dwelling-house at any time since 1938, and prohibits a change of use, whereas the direction merely prohibits a change of use of premises which are at the time of the application a dwelling-house. The other point is that the direction provides, in paragraph 2, that
"where an application for planning permission is being made for a change of user, a local planning authority which is not a housing authority shall consult with the housing authority"
before determining the application. That is, the application is made to the planning authority and, if it is not a housing authority, it seeks the views of the housing authority, which is, of course, concerned about a possible reduction in the amount of housing accommodation—and I think that is right.
The direction does not deal with the case of London. In the case of London, the London County Council are a housing, authority as well as being a planning authority, and the metropolitan boroughs are housing authorities but not planning authorities. So long as the regulation was in force, the application for a change of use had to be made to metropolitan boroughs, and it was they who were able to say "Yes" or "No." But to-day, as the direction stands, because the London County Council are a housing authority, they will be under no obligation to consult the metropolitan boroughs. Therefore the very valuable information which the metropolitan boroughs had of the housing conditions in their areas will be lost, unless the London County Council voluntarily choose to consult them. I hope I have
1026
made the point clear to the noble and learned Lord.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes, very.
LORD SILKIN: I think it is a matter which ought to go into the direction.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Into the direction?
LORD SILKIN: Yes, It ought to be in the direction, so as to make it abundantly clear that the London County Council are under an obligation to consult metropolitan boroughs. Those are my two points on the direction itself. I should be grateful if the noble and learned Lord could explain to me why the Minister of Housing and Local Government has thought fit to insist upon this change against the wishes, as I understand it, of the local authorities whom he has consulted, and what advantage he hopes to gain by converting a regulation which has worked perfectly well into a direction which, as I say, is one which is not normally available to tile general public.
Amendment moved,
After Clause 1, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Silkin.)
4.24 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am much obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for giving me the opportunity of explaining. The position is simply this: we desire to avoid duplication. Obviously, the question whether certain premises shall be used for housing or for other purposes is a matter which affects both planning authorities arid housing authorities. If you make the housing authorities first and last masters in their own houses, so that they have the final word whether premises shall be used for housing or whether they shall be converted to another use, you might just as well get rid of the planning authority. If, on the other hand, you have a planning authority and you say to that planning authority: "You shall consider, amongst other things, whether this property which is now used for housing should be converted to other purposes, and you shall consult the housing authority before you take any steps towards such conversion; and if there is a dispute between the housing authority and the planning authority whether such conversion shall be allowed, then the Minister

1027
shall settle that dispute, "you avoid duplication. You have the whole thing, if I may use a colloquialism, "under one hat," and you have the Minister as the final arbiter whether or not the conversion shall take place.
LORD SILKIN: I wonder whether I may ask the noble and learned Lord this question: How are you avoiding duplication? It still remains a matter which has to be considered by both bodies, the planning authority and the housing authority.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I speak subject to correction, because I know that the noble Lord is an expert in this field in which I am a novice, but certainly the purpose of not allowing this regulation to continue but of resting upon the provisions of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, which came into force in 1948—the purpose of allowing that Act to operate—is that the proper authority should have the last word on the question, subject always to an appeal to the Minister, as to what is the proper form of development. That cannot be so if the housing authority has the last word. That is the reason for it and, as we think—I speak subject to correction—it will avoid a great deal of duplication. The interests of the housing authorities in regard to the conversion of housing accommodation to other purposes will be preserved. It will be preserved by a direction which will be given under paragraph 3 of Article 9 of the General Development Order, 1950, and. of course, Section 15 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947. I am told that copies of the direction will be sent to local authorities under cover of a circular in a very few days.
The noble Lord has asked me two specific questions—one in regard to the London County Council where, as he rightly points out, the housing authorities are the metropolitan borough councils. But the County Council itself has also some power as a housing authority. The noble Lord made a very good point there and I will certainly call it to the attention of the Minister and, if necessary, something will be put in the direction to cover his point. It may be that something of which I am not aware makes it superfluous, but, prima facie, it seems to be a good point, and it shall be seen to.
1028
The other point which the noble Lord made was as to a divergence between the terms of the direction and the terms of the regulation, the regulation referring to user for housing for residential purposes at any time, and the other referring to user since a certain date. That point also is one that will be looked into. If there is substance in it, an alteration can, if necessary, be made. As the noble Lord knows, it can be made by a stroke of the pen. That I have satisfied the noble Lord I cannot be sure, but, at any rate, consideration having been given to the point, it has been decided, with a view to making the matter more tidy than under the sort of dual control which now exists, that Defence Regulation 68CA need not be continued and there is no reason to embody it in our permanent law. For that reason, I am unable to accept the Amendment.
LORD SILKIN: If there had to be a direction in place of a regulation, then I am satisfied with the noble and learned Lord's reply and with his assurance that further consideration will be given to the two points that I have made on the direction. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment, and I will not move the remaining Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.30 p.m.
Clause 2 [Continuation of Defence (Trading with the Enemy)Regulations, 1940]:
On Question, Whether Clause 2 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Clause 2 provides for the continuation of certain regulations called the Defence (Trading with the Enemy) Regulations, 1940. This is an admirable example of the kind of case to which I referred in the Motion for an Address, where experience has shown that it is necessary to embody in our permanent law what has originally been provided for by regulations which, in their nature, are temporary. It may surprise the Committee to be told that this is part of our permanent law, but I would remind the Committee that the Trading with the Enemy Acts, 1914 to 1918, though necessarily, in their origin, of an apparently temporary character, yet remained on the Statute Book until

1029
1939, when they were superseded by the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1939. It is necessary to keep on the Statute Book a Trading with the Enemy Act in case there should be another war. Of course, if there were another war the Act might speedily be superseded by another Act, but it is necessary to keep it as part of our permanent legislation. These regulations might have been the subject of a separate Act but in the time of war it was thought convenient to do by regulation what in time of peace would have been done by a Trading with the Enemy Act. Accordingly, these regulations really form part of the corpus of the Trading with the Enemy legislation which it is necessary to perpetuate; and so we ask that this clause should stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3 [Extension of control of certain explosives]:
On Question, Whether Clause 3 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Clause 3 of the Bill provides for an amendment and extension of the Explosives Act, 1875, that had been amended by an Act of 1923 to which I need not refer. During the war it was necessary to make substantial extensions of the law in that regard, both from the point of view of security against the enemy and in order to safeguard the careless people who were apt to play about with explosives. This clause incorporates some part, but not all, of the regulation that was made, and if the Committee look at subsection (5) of Clause 3 of the Bill, they will see a provision that
"on the coming into operation of the order first made under this section, Regulation two BA of the Defence (General) Regulations. 1939"—
that is what I may call the Explosives Regulation—
"shall be revoked."
Unless the Committee wish me to do so I do not think I need go through the clause in detail. It does just what I say it does: it provides for some extension of the Explosives Act, 1875, in particular by bringing gunpowder itself, and safety fuses, within the scope of the Act. It provides further safeguards by making obligatory the keeping of certain records, not only by those who sell but also by
1030
those who acquire explosives, and in other ancillary ways. It is a via media between the old Act of 1875 and the very stringent regulations which war-rime needs dictate.
LORD SILKIN: I should like to raise just one question, which I suppose is equally applicable to other clauses of this Bill. It would perhaps have been better, would it not, to amend each of these Acts—for instance, in this case to have done what is set out to be done under Clause 3 by way of amendment to the Explosives Act. It would certainly be more convenient to anyone who wanted to know the up-to-date law on explosives, rather than to imagine that he would find it in the Emergency Laws (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. I realise that that course would have meant the amendment of quite a number of different Acts.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If I may say so, I think the noble Lord has made a cogent point. But he has supplied the answer—namely, that we should have had an Explosives (Amendment) Act, 1952, and a dozen other Amendment Acts. It was thought convenient to put all these things which were the subject of emergency regulations into one omnibus Act. I agree that there is a difficulty about finding out what the law is, but I think a student of the law would have no difficulty, when he turned to an Index of Statutes, in finding the appropriate reference.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 [British seamen's cards]:
On Question, Whether Clause 4 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is a provision which was found to be extremely useful during the war, and which will be of continued usefulness. It provides for what are called seamen's certificates. They were found to be useful both in foreign ports and at home—useful in foreign ports because many countries required sea men disembarking in their ports to have some certificate of identity; useful at home for the purpose of re-employment under the employment exchanges. It is proposed that the certificates shall be in a form which the Minister of Transport will prescribe. It may interest the Committee to know that while in the past foreign States have required that the certificates should, amongst other things, carry the fingerprints of the sea-

1031
men using them, that is no longer the case. I do not think there is any State which now requires that to be done. What is regarded as rather invidious by some people will no longer be required. I do not say that new certificates will be issued while the old ones are in force, but when it comes to the issue of new certificates it will not be necessary for fingerprints to be shown on them. The expense to be incurred by the Minister of Transport will be defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament, but I understand that these certificates are regarded by the shipping authorities concerned as so useful that they themselves are likely to undertake the discharge of those expenses. I have taken this very shortly, but I think the Committee know something about this matter, which was under discussion on a previous occasion, and I think it has the consent of everybody.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5 [Power of local authorities to continue to let certain land for use as allotments gardens]:
On Question, Whether Clause 5 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is a clause to which the noble Lord, Lord Wise, has already referred. It provides for the revocation of Regulation 62A of the Defence (General) Regulations of 1939. That was a regulation which authorised local authorities to let to tenants, for use as allotment gardens and so on, any land which the authorities had acquired for other purposes than allotments and which was then vacant. It is thought desirable that the local authorities should now use the land which they acquired for a certain purpose—it may be for an open park, or what you will—for that purpose, and not for allotments. But where land is still let for allotments, that land will continue to belet in that way. It prevents them from acquiring fresh land, except under the Allotments Act, for the purpose of allotments, and gives other necessary safeguards. A large number of what may be called temporary allotments have ceased to be used as such, and the general feeling is that it is just as well that this power should not be further exercised. This is provided for by Clause 5, with the necessary ancillary provisions. It seems to me, and I submit that it is, a
1032
proper clause to be passed into our permanent law.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6 [Exemption from Part IV of Road Traffic Act, 1930, of vehicles carrying farm-workers]:
4.41 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 6 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This also is a provision which has been thought to be useful. Adopted originally as a temporary expedient, it has now been found to be worthy of permanent incorporation in our law. Its use is to facilitate the transport of agricultural workers during the harvest season, and it avoids requiring the vehicles which carry them to have the licences that would otherwise need to be issued. It is a provision which has commanded general assent, and it has already been found useful. One has found in connection with a good many of these regulations that where a regulation is useful then it is expedient to incorporate it in the general law. It is a sort of system of trial which has proved rather beneficial and which is peculiar to legislation set up in this way. I do not think I need say any more about that.
Clause 6 agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Viscount who leads the House in the absence of the noble Marquess has asked me to say that owing to delay in the opening of the debate on Mau Mau in another place, we are asking that the Royal Commission should be put off until a quarter past six. That means that it is postponed for three-quarters of an hour. I hope that that may suit your Lordships' convenience.
Clause 7 [Continuation and amendment of 6 and 7 Geo. 6, c. 25]:
On Question, Whether Clause 7 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this is a very complicated matter to many of your Lordships, and perhaps I stand rather nearer my own ground upon it. It is a provision which perpetuates, with certain alterations, a provision which gave power to the Chancery Division of the High Court to allow capital monies, as we call them, to be used for what might be regarded as

1033
income purposes. It is clear that during the war, and indeed since, the weights have been heavily against tenants for life, as compared with persons entitled in reversion, and there are many expenses now thrown on the tenant for life which he cannot possibly bear. This gives power to the Judges of the Chancery Division—who may be trusted to exercise their discretion in their usual exemplary way—to provide out of capital for certain expenses that might otherwise, as between the tenant for life and the reversioner, have to be borne by the tenant for life. This is a matter into which I have looked rather carefully, and commend it to your Lordships as a permanent provision of our law.
Clause 7 agreed to.
Clause 8 [Power of certain officers to take affidavits, &c.]:
On Question, Whether Clause 8 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am certainly wandering into diverse fields. This is a provision which, as your Lordships see, gives power to certain officers subject to the Naval Discipline Act to take affidavits and declarations, and to exercise similar powers to those which they now exercise by virtue of orders such as the Armed Forces (Administration of Oaths) Order, 1940, which was made by the Lord Chancellor of the day under Section I of the Evidence and Powers of Attorney Act, 1940. This power has been the subject of a temporary regulation. It has been found to be a regulation which it is expedient should be continued. It is not an earth-shaking provision but a very useful administrative one, and I commend it to the Committee.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clause 9 [Saving provision with respect to Regulation 55 F of Defence (General) Regulations, 1939]:
On Question, Whether Clause 9 shall stand part of the Bill.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Clause 9 deals with an extremely technical point. It provides that
"The revocation or expiry of Regulation fifty-five F of the Defence (General) Regulations 1939 (which contains safeguards for persons carrying on offensive trades closed under concentration arrangements) shall not affect the
1034
operation of that Regulation as respects a trade resumed before the revocation or expiry of that Regulation."
It is a puzzling and a difficult clause. The purport of it is this. Under the law as it now stands, where an offensive business has been carried on and has been discontinued for eighteen months (this is under one of the Public Health Acts) it cannot be carried on again without the consent of the proper authority. During the war offensive businesses, in various cases, ceased to be carried on, and the period of eighteen months has long since run out. It is not to be said in those cases that the eighteen months' period of discontinuation is to militate against the owners of the businesses if they wish to renew their businesses. This is a merely formal provision for the purpose of enabling the people concerned to be in the same condition as if their offensive businesses had not been discontinued by reason of war measures. It is not a very easy matter to explain, but I hope that my attempt to do so has been satisfactory to your Lordships.
EARL JOWITT: We arecertainly not going to offer any opposition, but I hope that the noble and learned Lord will bear in mind that in assenting, as we do, to these matters, we do it entirely without prejudice (I am sure the Lord Chancellor will agree to this) to the desirability of getting these provisions placed in the proper Acts in due course. At the present moment, this is a "mixed grill," if ever there was one. All sorts of things are mixed up. The last thing which has been mentioned ought to be in one Act, and other things which have been mentioned ought to be in others. I know that the Lord Chancellor is carrying on with enthusiasm the work of consolidation which I started. All these things will, I hope, in the process of time, come out of this Bill and find their way into the proper legislation. That will he very much more convenient, obviously, to the practitioner and to those who want to study the law.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am very much obliged to the noble and learned Earl. We had some discussion upon this matter whilst he was away from the House, but he will be able to read what I said about it in Hansard. I entirely agree with him that each of these Sections should—and I hope in due

1035
course will—when its subject matter is part of the consolidation programme, find its proper place in the Consolidation Act.
Clause 9 agreed to.
Clause 10 [Provisions as to orders]:
On Question, Whether Clause 10 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Clause 10 is formal and I need do no more than draw your Lordships' attention to it. It makes the usual provision as to orders. The first subsection sets out that any power conferred on the Secretary of State or the Minister of Transport to make an order is to be construed as including a power to revoke or vary the order by a subsequent order. The next subsection provides that any power conferred on the Secretary of State or the Minister of Transport to make an order shall be exercisable by statutory instrument. Then there is the usual provision about laying. I think there is nothing to which I need particularly refer in this clause.
Clause 10 agreed to.
Clause 11 [Application to Northern Ireland]:
On Question, Whether Clause 11 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Clause 11 concerns the application of the Bill to Northern Ireland. That is a matter which has been duly considered by the proper authorities.
Clause 11 agreed to.
Clause 12 [Short title and repeal]:
On Question, Whether Clause 12 shall stand part of the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Clause 12 is simply formal.
Remaining clause agreed to.
4.50 p.m.
First Schedule [Provisions of Defence Regulations permanently enacted]:
On Question, Whether the First Schedule shall be added to the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I thought it was due to the House that I should expound every one of the clauses in the Bill, inasmuch as they have not been the subject of exposition or discussion on Second Reading. The noble and
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learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, who has since gone away, gave me a hint, I thought, that your Lordships would accede to these provisions. I do not know whether he intended to suggest that I could be relieved of the obligation of referring one by one to the provisions which occur in this Schedule. Perhaps I can do it very shortly. Paragraph 1 takes the place of Regulation72 (1, c) of the Defence (General) Regulations and is a provision found convenient to the agricultural community, enabling persons under twenty-one years of age to drive agricultural tractors on the road. This is a good example of what I was saying a short time ago, where experience has proved the value of a regulation. Now we ask your Lordships to incorporate this into the law. Paragraph 2 replaces Regulation 70A (4) which provides for the rather complicated amendment of Section 18 of the Road Traffic Act,1930, enabling an articulated vehicle to be drawn by another motor vehicle. I think that also has been found to be useful on the rare occasions when it is necessary to use it. People do not leave articulated vehicles on the road unless they have to, and sometimes it may be convenient to remove them, not by a motor car or heavy vehicle, but by a tractor.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: May I ask the noble and learned Lord whether it is the intention of the Government to amend the Road Traffic Act in anything like the near future? Something, was said in another place about bringing the speed limit into the Road Traffic Act. At the present moment speed limits are laid down by regulations outside the Act.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I wish I could answer the noble Lord but I am afraid that I can only say, from my knowledge of the legislative programme, that it is, to use a rather hackneyed phrase, rather over-crowded.
Paragraph 3 enlarges the time for instituting proceedings under the Separation and Maintenance Acts. This is a valuable provision which has been found useful and should be perpetuated. Paragraph 4 deals with authority to withhold mortgage certificates. The effect of the paragraph is to perpetuate the provisions of Regulation 28A of the Agriculture and Fishery Regulations. Paragraph 5 repeats Regulation 76A. It is a cautionary clause which provides that goods which are

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deemed to be prohibited goods shall be forfeited. Subsection (2) deals with the provisions in regard to Customs and Excise in Northern Ireland, and I think will be found to be desirable. Paragraph 6 deals with amendments of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, and reproduces Regulation 68AB and Regulation 79CA. En effect, it provides that compensation shall be paid to the person whom it is due—that is to say, where premises have been leased and where the lessee is no longer there and cannot be found, the compensation shall be paid to the lessor. Both Paragraph 6 and Paragraph 7 cover a great variety of matters in regard to compensation. Paragraph 8 is one the necessity of which I am bound to say I find it difficult to explain, although I think I understand it. It is really nothing more than a provision to close a gap found in the law enabling the Minister of Supply to make by-laws under the Military Lands Acts, 1892 to 1903, in respect of land used by him for purposes of his Ministry but which does not belong to him. This is very technical, but in the interrelation of the various powers vested in him, clearly a gap has, by mistake, been left which this clause is designed to fill. Paragraph 9 provides, in a very sensible way, for the destruction of valueless documents by a more simple method than that which has hitherto been used. That concludes the First Schedule. I hope that I have expounded its various provisions to your Lordships adequately, if not in great detail.
First Schedule agreed to.
Second Schedule [Repeals]:
On Question, Whether the Second Schedule shall be added to the Bill?
LORD SILKIN: I do not rise to put any question to the noble and learned Lord on the Second Schedule, but I feel that the House would like me to say how indebted we are to the noble and learned Lord for the very courteous and patient way in which he has expounded a most difficult Bill and on the way which he has dealt with the whole subject, both to-day and on November 20. I can imagine that the most innocent layman would have understood, if only for the time being, every part of this Bill as the noble Lord expounded it. We are
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grateful to him, not only for his explanation, but for the courteous way in which he has dealt with those of us who had queries to raise, and even some criticism. I feel it only right that this should be said from this side of the House. If I may, I should also like to congratulate the noble and learned Lord on the clarity with which he has dealt with a variety of subjects one after the other in this Bill.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I must say "Thank you" for these very courteous observations. I have met with such a degree of good will and assistance on both sides of the House since I came, a somewhat innocent creature, to occupy this office, that I should be guilty of much shortcoming if I did not show all possible courtesy and assistance.
Second Schedule agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION
6.15 p.m.
The following Bills and Measure received the Royal Assent:

Colonial Loans,

Civil Contingencies Fund,

Public Works Loans,

New Valuation Lists (Postponement),

Expiring Laws Continuance,

Greenock Corporation Order Confirmation.

Union of Benefices (Disused Churches) Measure.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.