Lords Sitting of 30 July 1951

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
2.35 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
Moved, that Standing Orders Nos. XXI and XXXIX be considered in order to their being suspended until the House adjourns for the Recess, and that Government business have, except with the consent of the Government, precedence over other Notices arid Orders of the Day.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Considered on Report (according to Order).
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution), Bill read 3a, and passed.

CIVIL DEFENCE (SHELTER) (PLANNING) REGULATIONS, 1951
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, following a survey of the position in the localities
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carried out by the local government authorities, these Regulations authorise those authorities to proceed with the planning of residential and other forms of public shelter. I beg to move that the Regulations be approved.
Moved, That the Civil Defence (Shelter) (Planning) Regulations, 1951, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday last, be approved.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CIVIL DEFENCE (SHELTERS) (PLANNING) (SCOTLAND) REGULATIONS, 1951
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF WORKS (LORD MORRISON): My Lords, the purpose of these Regulations is to make it a function, under Section 2 of the Civil Defence Act, 1948, of county councils and town councils of large and small burghs to make plans for the provision of residential and public Civil Defence shelters. The conferring of shelter functions on these authorities has been agreed with the Scottish local authorities associations. I beg to move that the Regulations be approved.
Moved, That the Civil Defence (Shelters) (Planning) (Scotland) Regulations, 1951, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday last, be approved.—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (PAYMENTS BY BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION) (ADJUSTMENT) ORDER, 1951
THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR): My Lords, I beg to move that these Regulations be approved.
Moved, That the Local Government (Payments by British Transport Commission) (Adjustment) Order, 1951, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday last, be approved.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

NATIONAL INSURANCE (MARINERS) AMENDMENT REGULATIONS, 1951
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Kershaw, I beg to move that these Regulations be approved.
Moved, That the National Insurance (Mariners) Amendment Regulations, 1951, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday last, be approved.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

FORESTRY BILL [H.L.]
2.38 p.m.
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered. I have consulted the noble Lords who have shown an interest in this Bill during its passage through the House, and the view they take about the Amendments which have been made in another place is that these Amendments are improvements in the Bill, which they do not wish to question. On the other hand, there may be other noble Lords who wish to question these Amendments or to ask for an explanation of a specific Amendment. With your Lordships' permission, however, perhaps I may move the Amendments en bloc.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, is it your wish that the Amendments should be taken together?
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, from the point of view of the general conduct of the Business of the House, I think it would be better to consider the Amendments clause by clause. I wholly agree with the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, that a great number of these Amendments are drafting Amendments, while the rest do, on the whole, meet the Opposition point of view.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL:Certainly.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[The references are to Bill [106] as first printed for the House of Commons.]
Clause 2, page 2, line 23, leave out ("of which he is the owner") and insert ("on land in his occupation or in the occupation of any tenant of his")
Clause 2, page 2, line 25, leave out from the first ("trees") to end of line 29.
Clause 2, page 2, line 35, leave out ("of which he is the owner") and insert ("on land in his occupation or in the occupation of any tenant of his")
Clause 2, page 2, line 41, leave out from ("exceed") to ("and") in line 42, and insert ("eight hundred and twenty-five cubic feet in any quarter")
Clause 2, page 2, line 46, leave out ("fifty cubic feet in any month") and insert ("one hundred and fifty cubic feet in any quarter")
Clause 2, page 3, line 6, leave out from ("to") to ("cubic") in line 7, and insert ("eight hundred and twenty-five or one hundred and fifty")
Clause 2, page 3, line 19, leave out from ("to") to ("cubic") in line 20, and insert ("eight hundred and twenty-five or one hundred and fifty")
Clause 2, page 3, line 27, leave out ("and")
Clause 2, page 3, line 32, after ("ground") insert ("and 'quarter' means the period of three months beginning with the first day of January, the first day of April, the first day of July or the first day of October in any year")
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords. I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in the Amendments to Clause 2.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 3, page 3, line 40, leave out ("the owner of") and insert ("any person having such an estate or interest in the land on which the trees are growing as enables him, with or without the consent of any other person, to fell")
Clause 3, page 3, line 43, after second ("or") insert ("of the amenities of the district, or")
Clause 3, page 4, line 41, after ("application") insert ("or within such further time as may he agreed with the applicant")
Clause 3, page 5, line 3, at end insert—
("(8) A licence under this Act shall continue in force for such period (not being less than one year from the date on which it is granted) as may he specified in the licence.")
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 4, page 6, line 5, leave out ("fifth") and insert ("third")
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Listowel:)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 5, page 6, leave out from beginning of line 11 to end of line 15 and insert ("is for the time being the owner of the trees shall, on a claim made in the prescribed manner, he entitled to recover from the Commissioners compensation in respect of any depreciation in the value of the trees which is attributable to deterioration in the quality of the timber comprised therein in consequence of the refusal")
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 7, page 7, line 28, leave out ("there-with") and insert ("with a dwelling-house")
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 8, page 8, line 17, at beginning insert ("if he has the right to sell the trees for immediate felling")
Clause 8, page 8, line 19, at beginning insert ("in any case")
Clause 8, page 8, line 22, leave out ("shall") and insert ("may")
Clause 8, page 9, line 28, after ("shall") insert ("be deemed to")
Clause 8, page 9, line 41, leave out ("required")and insert ("authorised")
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the slid Amendments.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 10, line 40, leave out from ("may") to ("them") in line 42, and insert ("by notice given to the Commissioners in the prescribed manner and within the prescribed period require")
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 11, page 11, line 22, after ("notice") insert—
("(a) in the case of works required to be carried out in accordance with such conditions as aforesaid.")
Clause 11, page 11, line 22, after ("land.") insert—
("(b) in the ease of works required to be carried out in accordance with such directions as aforesaid, to the owner of the trees.")
Clause 11, page 11, line 25, leave Out ("giving of the notice") and insert ("notice has become operative")
Clause 11, page 11, line 44, at end insert—
("(4) A notice under subsection (1) of this section shall be inoperative until the expiration of the period during which a request may be made under subsection (2) of this section, and where such a request is made until the conclusion of any proceedings under this section in pursuance of the request.")
Clause 11, page 12, line 3, leave out from beginning to ("any") and insert ("on a claim made in the prescribed manner by the owner of")
Clause 11, page 12, line 4, after ("removed") insert ("pay to him a sum equal to the value of those trees)
Clause 11, page 12, line 22, at end insert—
("( ) A person required by any directions or notice under this Act to carry out any works or take any steps may carry out those works or take the steps notwithstanding any lease, covenant or contract relating to the trees or land affected by the directions or notice.")
Clause 11, page 12, line 23, leave out subsection (7).
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 12, page 12, line 42, leave out from ("eleven") to ("shall") in line 44.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 13, page 14, line 9, leave out ("and (c)") and insert—
("(5) Where an application for a licence is referred by the Commissioners under subsection (2) or subsection (4) of this section, then")
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
After Clause 15, insert the following new clause:
Provisions relating to mortgages and settled land
("—(1) Where the interest of the owner of any trees is for the time being subject to a mortgage—

(a) a claim for any compensation or sum payable under section five or section eleven of this Act in respect of the trees may be made either by the mortgagor or by the mortgagee;

(b) in either case the said compensation or sum shall be paid to the mortgagee or, if more than one, to the first mortgagee, and shall be applied by him as if it were proceeds of the sale of the trees.

(2) Subject to the foregoing provisions of this section, where the owner of any trees comprised in a settlement within the meaning of the Settled Land Act, 1925, is a tenant for life who is impeachable for waste in respect of the trees, any compensation or sum payable under section five or section eleven of this Act in respect of the trees shall be paid to the trustees of the settlement, and shall be applied by them in accordance with subsection (2) of section sixty-six of the Settled Land Act. 1925, as if it were proceeds of sale of timber cut and sold with the consent of the trustees under that section."
After Clause 15, insert the following new clause:
Trees in County of London
(". The foregoing provisions of this Act shall not apply in relation to trees standing or growing on land within the administrative county of London.")
After Clause 15, insert the following new clause:
Commissioners with knowledge and experience of timber trade
(". For the purpose of assisting the Commissioners in the performance of their duties under this Act at least one of the Commissioners appointed by His Majesty under subsection (1) of section one of the Forestry Act, 1945, shall he a person who has special knowledge and experience of the timber trade.")
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 17, page 16, line 2, leave out from ("assessed") to end of line 7.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 18, page 17, line 15, leave out from ("If,") to ("it,") in line 16.
Clause 18, page 17, line 21, at end insert ("responsible")
Clause 18, page 17, line 22, after ("no") insert ("such")
Clause 18, page 17, line 24, at end insert—
("(5) The Commissioners may, for the purpose of enabling them to serve or give any document or direction under this Act, require the occupier of any land and any person who, either directly or indirectly, receives rent in respect of any land, to state in writing the nature of his interest therein and the name and address of any other person known to him as having an interest therein, whether as a freeholder, mortgagee, lessee or otherwise; and any person who, having been required in pursuance of this subsection to give any information, fails to give that information, or knowingly makes any mis-statement in respect thereof, shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five pounds.")
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 19, page 17, line 28, at end insert—
("(2) Any power conferred by this Act to prescribe the manner in which a claim or notice may be made or given thereunder shall include power to require that any particulars specified in the claim or notice shall be verified by statutory declaration.")
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 21, page 19, line 27, leave out paragraph (h), and insert—
("(h) for references to the Agriculture Act, 1947, and to Part II and section twenty-one of that Act, there shall be substituted references to the Agriculture (Sootland) Act. 1948, and to Part II and section thirty-eight of that Act;
(i) for references to a freeholder, to a mortgage, to a mortgagor, to a mortgagee, and to the first mortgagee there shall he substituted respectively references to an owner, to a heritable security, to a debtor in a heritable security, to a creditor in a heritable security, and to the creditor whose heritable security has priority over any other heritable securities secured on the land.")
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 22, page 20, line 20, leave out from ("not,") to ("and,") in line 21, and insert ("authorised by section three of this Act to make such an application")
Clause 22, page 20, line 21, leave out from ("and,") to end of line 22, and insert ("in the case of any such application—
(a) subsection (5) of the said section three")
Clause 22, page 20, line 27, at end insert ("and
(b) any compensation payable under section five of this Act, to the owner of the trees shall be held by him in trust for the applicant")
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 24, page 21, line 10, at end insert—
("'mortgage' includes any charge for securing money or moneys worth and 'mortgagee' shall be construed accordingly.")
Clause 24, page 21, leave out lines 14 to 17, and insert—
("'owner' in relation to land has the same meaning as in Part II of the Agriculture Act, 1947, and subsections (1) and (2) of section twenty-one of that Act shall accordingly have effect as if references therein to the said Part II included references to this Act;
'owner' in relation to trees means the owner of the land on which the trees are growing, and, in the case of trees which have been fell-id, means the person who was the owner immediately before the felling;")
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

TITHE ACT, 1936 (AMENDMENT) BILL [H.L.]
2.44 p.m.
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
[The references are to Bill No. 30]
Clause 3, page 4, line 40, leave out ("Act, 1936 (Amendment)")
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, there are only two Amendments to this Bill, and both of them were inserted in another place merely to simplify the Title. As your Lordships will see, they merely omit "Act, 1936 (Amendment)." These Amendments were made with the full consent. of the Opposition in the other place and, therefore, I am hoping that they will meet with a similar reception in your Lordships House. I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 12, page 11, line 5, leave out ("Act, 1936 (Amendment)")
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

RAG FLOCK AND OTHER FILLING MATERIALS BILL [H.L.]
2.46 p.m.
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
[The references are to Bill No. 62]
Clause 8, page 6, line 31, leave out ("laid before Parliament") aid insert ("subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.")
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, the Amendments to this Bill are mainly drafting, but as I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, has a brief comment to make on one of them, it may be convenient if I move the Amendments separately. I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in the first Amendment, which is more or less a drafting Amendment. It extends the provisions of Clauses 4 to 7 to other materials besides rag flock, and makes the orders subject to annulment by Parliament.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, this is an Amendment, as the noble Lord has said, which makes these other classes of orders subject to annulment if either House thinks fit to annul them. It is an Amendment which we shall all welcome.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 9, page 6, line 34, leave out ("consignments of")
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 9, page 6, line 35, leave out ("delivered") and insert ("consigned")
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, the reason I did not move the whole of the drafting Amendments at once is that the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, intimated to me, just prior to the meeting of the House, that he is concerned at this Amendment being regarded as drafting only. The noble Lord puts a different meaning on the words "consigned" and "delivered," and would like to know why the change has been made. In the short time available to me, I tried to find out the reason for the change which was made in the Commons, but I failed to secure a satisfactory answer. I then looked up the Report of the debate in another place on
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this group of Amendments, and I noticed that they were moved to clarify the position in regard to consignments. I feel that this is not a very satisfactory explanation to the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, but that is all I can give him at the moment. I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for doing his best. As I read them, I have no objection to any of the other Amendments. Your Lordships will see that the words in the Bill are:
"The occupier of any premises registered under this Act shall keep records of all consignments of filling materials to which this Act applies delivered to the premises …"
For the word "delivered" we are now inserting the word "consigned." But it does not follow that a parcel of rag flock that is consigned to premises ever gets there. That is the simple purport of my question. In the Bill as it left us, the occupier had only to keep records of what came into his possession, which I should have thought was right. Now he has to start his record, I suppose, as soon as he receives the consignment note; and whether the goods ultimately follow, one does not know. It is not a very important point, and, the noble Lord having done his best, I think we should agree to the Amendment. However, in passing, I would say that I think it is only due to the noble Lord that some appropriate official from the Department concerned with this measure might have been here to advise him on an occasion like this. I am content to leave it at that, so long as the noble Lord promises that he will pass on my comment to the Department concerned. I think the officials ought to attend, so that noble Lords are properly briefed on any small point which may arise in the course of debate.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to say how pleased I am that the noble Lord has adopted that attitude. I have my advisers here, but this is an Amendment which was drafted by the draftsman, and it is the draftsman himself who is not here. This Amendment was accepted in

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another place. I am satisfied myself that the inquiry is a sound inquiry, and I would distinguish between "deliver" and "consign." However, as I say, the Amendment was agreed to in another place, and I am glad that the noble Lord feels able to accept it without any further inquiry.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 9, page 6, line 37, leave out ("delivered to or consigned") and insert ("consigned to or")
Clause 9, page 6, line 39, leave out ("consignments of")
Clause 9, page 6, line 40, at beginning, insert ("consigned")
Clause 9, page 6, line 42, leave out ("consignments of")
Clause 9, page 6, line 43, leave out ("in and out of") and insert ("consigned to or from")
Page 7, line 2, leave out from ("include") to end of line 6, and insert ("the prescribed information as to the nature and quantity of the materials or articles consigned, the persons from or to whom they were consigned, the places from or to which they were consigned and the dates of receipt at or despatch from the premises.")
LORD MACDONALD of GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, the remaining Amendments to Clause 9 are all drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 13, page 9, line 38, leave out ("eight") and insert ("nine").
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, this Amendment simply corrects a misprint. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 15, page 11, line 17, leave out ("laid before Parliament") and insert ("subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either Howe of Parliament.")
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, this Amendment makes the regulations dealing with fees for the testing of samples subject to annulment by Parliament. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 19, page 12, line 10, leave out from ("Act") to end of line 19, and insert ("which has been committed by a body corporate is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to any neglect on the part of, any director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or any person purporting to act in any such capacity, he as well as the body corporate shall be deemed to be guilty of that offence and shall he liable to he proceeded against arid punished accordingly.")
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, this Amendment brings the provisions relating to offences committed by corporations in line with other Amendments which have been made and accepted in other Bills during this Session. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, I think this Amendment effects a great improvement. This measure went through your Lordships' House without your Lordships—including myself, particularly—noticing this point. There was considerable discussion about this particular problem on a Bill which came to us just after this one, and a very satisfactory form of words was found. I am glad that the opportunity has been taken of the proceedings in another place to bring this Bill into line with what was agreed on one or two other measures, and I thank the noble Lord.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 30, page 15, line 44, leave out ("laid before Parliament") and insert ("subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.")
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, this is another Amendment which gives each House of Parliament power to annul the regulations which Ministers make. I think it is a considerable improvement,

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and perhaps the word "drafting" does not adequately sum it up.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. By accident, I turned over two pages of my brief. This Amendment makes the same alteration regarding annulment as the previous Amendment.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 36, page 17, line 27, leave out from ("and") to end of line 29, and insert ("for references to the day on which a summons is served and to the day on which it is returnable there shall be respectively substituted references to the day on which a complaint is served and to the day on which the prosecution thereon proceeds to trial.")
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, the expression "the day on which the summons is returnable," which occurs in Clause 21 (2) and Clause 24 (2), requires interpretation for Scotland, and this Amendment is designed to this effect. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

>PRICE CONTROL AND OTHER ORDERS (INDEMNITY) BILL
2.55 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH): My Lords, the Bill to which I am asking your Lordships to give a Second Reading is before your Lordships' House in consequence of the ruling of Mr. Speaker in another place that two Orders, one made by the Board of Trade and the other by the Ministry of Supply, were not properly laid. The two Orders in question are Statutory Instrument No. 413, 1951—the Utility Apparel (Maximum Prices and Charges) (Amendment No. 2) Order—and the Iron and Steel Prices Order, 1951, Statutory Instrument No. 252, made by the Ministry of Supply.
I do not think it is necessary for me to make "heavy weather" of this matter, or to ask your Lordships to do so. I hope it will suffice if I give a general
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explanation as to how the mistake was made and of the steps which are being taken to rectify it. The error consisted of a failure physically to lay all these subsidiary documents described in the main as related schedules. It was thought that, when an Order was made, it was sufficient to lay before Parliament the Order and such documents as were necessary to explain how the law was being altered. The error was that, instead of laying all the related documents, only those introduced for the first time were laid. The other related schedules, in the case of the Board of Trade, and the other related documents, in the case of the Ministry of Supply—that is, those which were not altered—had already been laid with the original Orders. It is now acknowledged that all the documents, and not merely the new documents, should have been laid. In consequence of Mr. Speaker's ruling, my right honourable friends the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Supply caused investigations and researches to be made into how many Orders had been laid by them or their predecessors to which this ruling applied. The result of those investigations is set out in the Schedules to this Bill. There were approximately 250 such Orders, dated in respect of the Board of Trade from the year 1942 and, in respect of the Ministry of Supply, from the year 1946. Four Orders from the Board of Trade are still in force; the others have either been annulled or have been replaced by other Orders.
If I may put forward a mitigation of the crime—if crime it be—I would say that this procedure was adopted for the convenience of trade and industry. Practically all these 250 Orders are price control orders, in one form or another. I have here a set of documents relating to one Order with all the related schedules. This one is the Goods and Services (Price Control of Utility Apparel) Order. If this had been printed in one solid mass of paper, any trader wishing to see how the prices of the goods with which he dealt were affected would have to possess himself of the whole mass of these documents, when he was interested only in one particular item, because the Schedules to this Order relate to items ranging from industrial overalls to ladies' night apparel, and from children's clothes to men's outer apparel. That is the reason for this procedure. I admit, quite frankly, and His

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Majesty's Government admit, that an offence has been committed, in so far as the Ministers have failed to comply with the directions of an Act of Parliament. Therefore, His Majesty's Government have introduced this Bill, and have asked Parliament to excuse the offence and to agree to Passing of an Indemnity Bill.
Now, my Lords, if I may just briefly refer to the Bill, Clause 1, subsection (1), indemnities the Ministers for the time being concerned and their responsible officials from the consequences of this failure to lay in proper form the Orders and directions specified in the First Schedule to the Bill. It is they who have failed to comply with the relevant enactments and, accordingly, it is they only who are indemnified. Subsection (2) of Clause 1 goes on to provide that each of the Orders in question shall be deemed to have been duly laid when the original but unsuccessful attempt to lay it was made. The reason for this provision is that there may be some doubt as to the validity of the Orders because they were not laid in proper form. I should like to make it clear that Mr. Speaker's ruling in another place had nothing to do with validity. He made no ruling as regards validity; the only ruling he made was as to the manner in which the Orders were laid. But there might be some doubt about the validity, and subsection (2) of Clause 1 is inserted to remove that doubt for all time.
Subsection (3) of Clause 1 provides the procedure by which indemnity may be given in respect of Orders which are not specified in the Schedules to the Bill but which may have been made in wrong form. As I have said, we have made investigations, and we have found somewhere in the region of 250 Orders which may or may not have been wrongly made. I make no claim that that search has been complete. There may be other Orders, and also there might be Orders involving other Ministers; and this provision would cover them. It does not automatically give an indemnity for every case that may be discovered in the future; what it does is simply to provide a summary procedure by which Parliament may be special case; and it has to go through the procedure of the affirmative Resolution before Parliament. That, my Lords, is the Bill, and
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those are the provisions. I ask your Lordships to accept the apologies of His Majesty's Government for the error made, and I trust that your Lordships will now give this Bill a Second Reading. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
3.3 p.m.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: My Lords, the noble Lord has candidly admitted to the House that His Majesty's Ministers are in error in this matter—accidentally, no doubt, but Parliamentarily speaking in error. With great generosity we do not propose to put the knife into the wound. This is an extremely complicated matter, like all matters dealing with delegated legislation. It is an illustration of the tangle into which our legislation and its children and grandchildren have got, and perhaps we might draw a moral from it. But there is no doubt that it is a technical breach and one which we do not regard very seriously. We would, however, take this opportunity of pointing out that it is in the public interest that our laws should be simplified, so far as possible, and that there should not be future occasions upon which a Minister may similarly err.
3.5 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, before we pass this measure, I should like to refer to any early Order of 1942—I think No. 751. I was taking a personal interest in this matter, and I am wondering whether I myself am being indemnified by this Bill, because, for a short period at the beginning of 1942 I happened to be President of the Board of Trade. If I am being indemnified it would be only courteous of me to say "Thank you" and I now do so.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord De L'Isle and Dudley, for the magnanimous manner in which he has accepted the apology. If there were no better reasons for bringing this Bill before your Lordships' House than to indemnify the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, who was a culprit—though I hesitated to say so—that would be sufficient reason.
LORD LLEWELLIN: The noble Lord said that a number of cases were included,

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and I was only provisionally saying "Thank you," in case I was on the list; but I fancy that I am not.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: If the noble Lord was a culprit, he was a culprit in good company, because the Minister of Supply responsible for the origin of the proceedings was the right honourable Sir Andrew Duncan. As I say, therefore, the noble Lord, if he was culpable, was so in splendid company. I thank your Lordships for the reception you have given to this Bill. We shall take steps to guard against any similar breach in future, in so far as the related schedules will be printed and laid before Parliament in proper form.
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution), Bill read 3a, and passed.

PROPOSED MATTERHORN RAILWAY
3.8 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY LORD CHORLEY asked His Majesty's Government whether they would be prepared to invite the Swiss and Italian Governments to consider the respectful representations of the British Mountaineering Council on proposals to erect a railway in either country up the Matterhorn. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in rising to ask the Question standing in my name, I do not propose to take more than a few minutes of your time. I appreciate that this is a somewhat unusual type of Question to put to His Majesty's Government, and it might be thought that it was trespassing upon the internal arrangements of foreign countries to put a Question of this kind in relation to the building of possible railways in foreign countries. I can assure your Lordships that nothing is further from my mind. What I am anxious to do is to draw attention to the widespread anxiety among tens of thousands of British people who spend their holidays among the magnificent Alpine scenery of Switzerland and Italy, and to whom the notion of railways going up the Matterhorn from both sides has come as a terrible blow.
The Matterhorn, as probably your Lordships know, has the reputation
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of being the most beautiful mountain in the world. Whether that is true or not, it is certainly the most beautiful that the average person has a chance of seeing. Everyone who has had that opportunity must have caught his breath at the first sight of that superb mountain. Mountaineers, and in particular British mountaineers, are especially interested in this project, because one of our great contributions in the realm of sport and exploration was the opening up of the Alpine valleys by early Victorian and mid-Victorian mountaineers, as a result of which the inhabitants of those valleys have undoubtedly, materially, gained a very great deal. British mountaineers are particularly upset at the idea that this lovely mountain, a mountain which is associated with the exploits of Edward Whymper and one of the most exciting pieces of mountain exploration in the whole history of Alpine adventure, should be liable to possible desecration in this way. All the British home mountaineering clubs are represented in the British Mountaineering Council, who have discussed this matter and are particularly anxious to make representations to the Governments of the countries which are concerned in this possible project. It is for that reason that I have put down this Question. It is unnecessary for me to say anything more in explanation, I therefore beg to ask His Majesty's Government
"whether they would he prepared to invite the Swiss and Italian Governments to consider the respectful representations of the British Mountaineering Council on proposals to erect a railway in either country up the Matterhorn."
3.11 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD HENDERSON): My Lords, as I understand the position, the scheme is to build a funicular railway up the Matterhorn, partly in Swiss and partly in Italian territory. This has been proposed by an Italo-Swiss combine. According to my information, the scheme is still very indefinite and neither of the Governments of the two countries to which I have referred have, so far as I know, committed themselves in favour of the proposal. As my noble friend has indicated, it is true that many people interested in mountaineering, especially in the United Kingdom, are opposed to the scheme, and I can understand the views which they hold. But,

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on the other hand, it may be that the promoters of tourist trade take a quite different view and are strongly in favour of the proposal.
I did not gather from the speech of my noble friend that the British Mountaineering Council have yet made representations to either of the two Governments: nor have they made any representations to His Majesty's Government. It may be—and, here again, I was not clear from what my noble friend said—that they intend, in due course, to make representations to the Italian and Swiss Governments. But, even so, I must point out that whether or not the proposed scheme is to be proceeded with is entirely a domestic matter for the Swiss and Italian Governments. Whilst it may be quite proper for organisations which represent the interests of the mountaineers to make representations to the two Governments, it is not a matter in which His Majesty's Government have any standing whatsoever. Therefore, I am afraid that I must say to my noble friend that the Government would not be able to take any diplomatic action in support of representations, either in favour of or against the proposal.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I was afraid that the noble Lord would answer in the way that he has. His reply is not unsympathetic, however, and to that extent I am obliged to him.

FUTURE BUSINESS
3.14 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg leave to make an announcement concerning the Business of the House to-morrow and Wednesday. There are a very large number of your Lordships who desire to take part in to-morrow's debate on Foreign Affairs. It is, I think, obvious that we cannot conveniently continue the
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debate on Wednesday, because the Order Paper for that day already full—indeed, there is some doubt whether we can get the whole of the Business through on Wednesday. It has therefore been agreed, through the usual channels, that to-morrow there should be a dinner adjournment from seven o'clock to eight-thirty p.m., so as to enable us to complete in one day the debate on Foreign Affairs.
LORD REA: What does the noble Lord mean by "the usual channels"?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, this is a message which has just been given to me: if the noble Lord, Lord Rea, has not been consulted about it, I very much regret it. But I hope that the noble Lord will have no objection to the proposed adjournment for dinner.
VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, if it transpired that some of those noble Lords who have indicated their wish to speak decided, in the circumstances, not to call upon the attention of the House, it might be that the debate could be concluded without that break.
LORD SHEPHERD: I agree with the noble and learned Viscount that such would be the case; but we are members of a House where each noble Lord is entitled to speak if he so desires. It is, therefore, very difficult for the Whips, as may be done in some other assemblies, to ask their noble friends not to press their views.
VISCOUNT SIMON:A collective contribution might perhaps be made.

NOTTINGHAMSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.
House adjourned at seventeen minutes past three o'clock.