§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments.
§ Clause 2 [Prohibition on use of stream for disposal of polluting matter, refuse. etc.]:
§ THE PAYMASTER - GENERAL (LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR)My Lords, although this Amendment is down in my name, it was suggested by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simon, and we are pleased to accept his suggestion. It is designed to meet the case that a person may act as a director of a company although, technically, his appointment may not conform with the company's constitution. I need not say any more. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 43, after ("corporate") insert ("or any person purporting to act in any such capacity,").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 7 [Restrictions on new outlets and new discharges]:
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this is little more than a drafting Amendment. It brings the wording of the subsection into line with the definition of "new discharge" in subsecticn (8) (b) of the Clause. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 36, after ("composition") insert ("temperature,").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD of GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this Amendment also is little more than drafting. Its purpose is to ensure that new or altered outlets which form part of the sewerage systems of local authorities shall not require the river board's consent if the work was approved or authorised by the Minister of Health prior to the transfer of his functions to the Minister of Local Government and Planning. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 12, at end insert ("or, before the thirtieth day of January, nineteen hundred and fifty-one, by the Minister of Health.")—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenaysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
907§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORmoved, after subsection (10) to insert:
( ) If, on an application to the Minister for him to determine a question under the last foregoing subsection, he determines that the withholding of consent, or the condition imposed, or the variation of a condition, as the case may be, was unreasonable, then—but, as respects the period before the giving of the direction, this section shall apply as if the withholding of consent, or the condition imposed, or the variation of a condition, as the case may be, had not been unreasonable.
- (a) where the application was in respect of the withholding of consent, he may direct that the consent shall be treated as given either unconditionally or subject to such conditions as appear to him to be reasonable;
- (b) where the application was in respect of the unreasonableness of any condition imposed, he may direct either that the condition shall be treated as annulled or that there shall be substituted for it such condition as appears to him to be reasonable;
- (c) where the application was in respect of the reasonableness of any variation of a condition, he may direct either that the condition shall be treated as continuing in force unvaried or that it shall be varied in such manner as appears to him to be reasonable;
(12) If a river board fail, within three months of the making to them of an application for their consent under this section, to give the person proposing to bring into use the new or altered outlet or to begin to make the new discharge, as the case may be, notice that they give or refuse their consent, the consent shall be deemed to be given unconditionally at the expiration of those three months.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, it may be to the convenience of your Lordships if I deal with this and the next Amendment together. They are both designed to put the clause into better shape. They arise, I must admit, from the fact that the Amendments to the clause moved on Report were drafted very hurriedly, and had to be discussed with the people drafting the Scottish Bill before they were tabled. The result was that subsection (14) of the clause, as amended on Report, inadvertently extended the procedure in regard to the river boards' consent to new outlets and new discharges to tidal waters. This was not intended, and it was not, of course, part of the agreement that was reached by the interests concerned when the Bill left another place. These Amendments are designed to put the matter right.
§ There has been discussion of the question by the interests concerned, and I am informed that, although they have not seen the actual wording of the drafts, they 908 agree that the Amendments are right in principle. There is, however, one small difference which I may mention. The Amendments to be moved provide that if the board do not give their decision at the end of three months, their consent shall be presumed, whereas the Parties concerned suggest that a period be named and, if, at the end of that time, the board have not given their consent, the applicants may take up the matter with the Minister. It seems unnecessary to trouble the Minister with every case of this kind which might arise, and it seems wrong in principle that responsible local government bodies should be encouraged to let matters drift until, automatically, they have to be decided by the central Government. Moreover, the Amendment, as drafted, follows a very recent precedent in Section 4 (2) of the Public Utilities Street Works Act of 1950. The Ministry consider that it is only right that a precedent which has been enacted so recently by Parliament should be followed in this case. Your Lordships will see that the Amendment provides for the extension of the provisions to tidal waters in the same way as other provisions of the Bill may be so extended.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 17, at end insert the said subsections.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ VISCOUNT SWINTONMy Lords, I think that on the whole, the proposal here, that if within three months the board have not given their consent, that consent shall be presumed, is a reasonable one. We have contended throughout that the boards should have very wide powers to control both existing pollution and new outlets, but it seems to me that the corollary of that control is that they should act not only reasonably but with reasonable despatch. If the decision rests with them, subject I think in certain cases to an appeal to the Minister, and if they fail to act, I see no reason why the Minister should be brought in and the case argued out again before the Minister. I should have thought that three months was ample time for a decision to be given by the board. They will be on the spot and will be dealing with the situation and I feel sure that, on consideration, the river boards, having obtained so much control—and rightly so—from this Bill, they will accept this proposal as reasonable.
909 So far as I am able to follow them, the other Amendments seem an improvement. I should like here to take the opportunity of making one comment. We have had to criticise the Government in the past, and if they are going to continue I have no doubt that we shall go on having further and better occasions for our criticism. But throughout our discussions or this Bill—and I am sure that I speak on behalf of all my noble friends on this side of the House—the noble Lord the Paymaster General has shown that he has mastered an extremely intricate Bill in the most thorough fashion. Moreover he has been assiduous, as well as most sympathetic and understanding, in considering all the representations made and all the other interests concerned. For once, I think this Bill will go back to another place as a piece of work which we have done together and which will, I believe, give satisfaction to a number of conflicting interests—industrial, amenity, riparian and the like. We have tried to help the noble Lord, but a great deal of the credit must go to him.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 38, leave out subsection (14) and insert—
("(14) Subject to the following subsection, no person shall bring into use any new or altered outlet for the discharge of trade or sewage effluent to any tidal waters or part of the sea included in a river board area for the purposes of the river board's functions relating to fisheries, or begin to make any new discharge of trace or sewerage effluent to any such waters or part of the sea, unless—and any person contravening this subsection shall be liable, on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding two hundred pounds or, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds:
- (a) he has given the river board notice of his intention to do so not less than three months beforehand (or such less period as the board may agree to); and
- b) in the case of a new or altered outlet, the outlet is so constructed as to comply with any conditions reasonably imposed by the board to enable them to exercise their right to take samples of the effluent;
Provided that this subsection shall not apply to the bringing into use of any new or altered outlet which forms part of the sewage disposal or sewerage works 910 of a local authority if its construction or alteration, as the case may be, or the raising of a loan to defray the cost thereof, has been approved or authorised by the Minister or, before the thirtieth day of January, nineteen hundred and fifty-one, by the Minister or Health.
(15) Section six of this Act shall apply in relation to the foregoing provisions of this section, except the last foregoing subsection, as it applies in relation to sections two to live of this Act, and the last foregoing subsection shall not apply in relation to any tidal waters or parts of the sea to which any of the preceding provisions of this section are applied by virtue of this subsection.")—(Lord macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Second Schedule [Transitional and other consequential provisions]:
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORThis is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 5, after ("five") insert ("or section seven").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this is consequential on the Amendment just carried. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 6, at end add ("by virtue of an order under section six of this Act").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this is also consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 44, leave out ("subsection (8)") and insert ("the last two subsections").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this also is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 25, leave out from first ("of") to ("if") and insert ("section seven of this Act to do so with the consent of the river board (or, in a case to which the penultimate subsection of that section applies, to have complied with that subsection)").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
911§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORThis is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 26, leave out ("two") and insert ("three").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 12, after ("five") insert ("and section seven (except the last two subsections)").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, in rising to move that the Bill do now pass, I should like to express my appreciation for the kind references made by the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton. He and I saw each other quite often in another place in the course of many years, and kind references of that sort from him mean much to me. I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
§ Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ 2.56 p.m.
LORD LLOYDMy Lords, I do not know whether I am in order in raising a point at this stage of the Bill. I am afraid missed my opportunity earlier on. Of course, if I am not in order I shall sit down.
THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, the noble Lord looks at me. I am no authority on whether he is in order or not. From his smile, I strongly suspect that he is going to be completely out of order.
LORD LLOYDWell, my Lords, I regret my disorderly behaviour, but there is one point I should like to make upon this Bill. First, this is a Bill we all want, and I should like to associate myself with the remarks of my noble friend Lord Swinton about the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, who has been very helpful to us over the whole matter. But I do not think I can allow this Bill to pass without saying yet again that I feel that it contains one very bad principle. I am sorry to be repetitive about it. I raised this matter on the Report stage, but I feel I 912 should raise it again. In regard to Clause 9 we stood out for the principle that the Minister should not be allowed to be a judge in his own cause, and I am afraid the noble Lord opposite has not been able to meet that point. That is unfortunate, because here a precedent is going to be created and noble Lords opposite may in due course say, "You allowed this to go through in the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Bill." I should like to register one last protest, and to say that I think this is a wrong and a bad principle. It has no parallel in the case of the previous Act. It is only because we all want this Bill and that we do not wish to dissent from the noble Lord that, speaking for myself, I agree to its passing; but I hope it will not be quoted as a precedent, because I think it is a very bad one.
§ On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.