Lords Sitting of 17 November 1949

Preamble
The House met at four of the clock. The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  4.5 p.m.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
  Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being dispensed with on Tuesday next for the purpose of enabling the British North America (No. 2) Bill [H.L.] and the Profits Tax Bill to be taken through their remaining stages.—(Lord Shepherd.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

AUXILIARY AND RESERVE FORCES BILL
4.6 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD PAKENHAM): My Lords, I beg to move that the Auxiliary and Reserve Forces Bill be read a second time. This Bill, though an important measure, is in essence an amending Bill: it brings up to date the existing Statutes that now govern our Auxiliary and Reserve Forces, which all noble Lords in this House are equally agreed play a vital part in the defence of this country to-day, and will play an increasingly vital part as time goes on.
The Bill has three main objects: first, to bring up to date the constitution and powers of the Territorial and Auxiliary Forces Associations to keep pace with the changing role of all those forces and with their growing responsibilities; secondly, to give to His Majesty's Government powers to bring to a greater state of readiness the Auxiliary and Reserve Forces—that is to say, to provide more speed and simplicity in calling them up than present legislation allows; thirdly, to facilitate the
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calling up of Reservists from all three Services to meet a minor emergency involving operations overseas. As your Lordships are aware, at the moment the last two objectives are covered by the duration of the current emergency which began in 1939, but we all hope that the emergency will one day come to an end. When it does, there will be need for the major provisions of the Bill to which I have just referred.
The Bill legislates directly in specific terms for the Territorial Army and for the Army and Naval Reserves. Its application, with necessary adaptations, to the Royal Auxiliary Air Force and to the Air Force Reserve is covered by Clause 7 of the Bill which allows, where necessary, for the provisions of the Bill to be made effective for these Air Forces by Order in Council. This somewhat roundabout form of legislation is a direct consequence of the Air Force Constitution Act of 1917, as a result of which all subsequent defence legislation has been made applicable to the Air Force by Orders in Council. To depart from that method at this juncture and to attempt to legislate directly for the Royal Air Force would require a Bill of formidable scale, consolidating all the Orders in Council which have already been made.
May I now turn to the specific provisions of the Bill? Clauses 1 to 3 make it possible to alter the constitution of the existing Territorial associations and to extend their functions in line with their responsibilities. If I may go into further detail, but not into very great detail now, I would point out that Clause 1 enables associations for one or more counties to be combined, though I should add that there is no intention of using these powers without the agreement of the associations concerned. I would emphasise that point. Clause 2 enables representation on the associations to be widened—for example, other ranks as well as officers will be eligible for membership, and for the first time there will be direct representation of the Cadet Forces, a point which I know will please a number of noble Lords who have given so much energy to that cause. Clause 3 gives power to extend the duties of the associations to include certain functions connected with the Naval Reserves where that is desired by the Admiralty.

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At this point, I would add that in Clause 4 enlistment into the Territorial Army will cease to be described as being "for a county." Many units in the Territorial Army are not and cannot be organised on a county basis. While those units with a county connection will retain that connection in their title, there is no need to retain the condition that a man enlists for a county. In the future, men will enlist into the Territorial Army for service in a corps or arm of the service, in the same way as in the Regular Army.
The remainder of the Bill is largely concerned with two of the three main objects which I indicated in my opening remarks —namely, the conditions of service in times of actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom, and the conditions of service of the Reserve, but not Auxiliary Forces, in a minor emergency giving rise to operations abroad. In addition, and before coming to those two important points, I would mention that among other things it is provided in Clause 5 that a member of the Territorial Army shall, when embodied, be liable to serve overseas and, if necessary, to transfer from one corps to another. The present situation is that men enlisting in the Territorial Army are required to give an undertaking to serve overseas if the Territorial Army should be embodied, so that this clause of the Bill will not involve any material change so far as volunteers in the Territorial Army are concerned. The need for this provision will arise when the National Service men enter the Territorial Army, and this statutory liability is included in the Bill to avoid the need for legislation at a time of emergency.
To return to what I said just now were the two main points, I would point out that the Bill provides that all the Auxiliary and Reserve Forces, or any portion of them, including in future the National Service element, may be called out for service without a proclamation and without special legislation in time of actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom. This power is required to meet a situation of the sort which occurred in September, 1938, for instance, at the time of the Munich crisis and later in the clays before the last war. The need for this arises because, in modern conditions, it is possible that sudden attack may be apprehended at a time when the
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passing of special legislation as an immediate measure is impracticable and when special legislation or a proclamation may be undesirable for diplomatic or similar reasons. There is a provision that when a member of the Territorial Army is called up at the time of such a sudden emergency, there being no actual embodiment of the Territorial Army, he will be liable to be posted from one unit to another in the same corps, but in those circumstances he will not be liable to be transferred to another corps. Such a man will be posted back to his former unit if he so desires when his service in defence of the United Kingdom is terminated. This provision is very necessary, though it will be required only to a limited extent, if at all, in the Territorial Army. Its main purpose is in connection with the Royal Auxiliary Air Force, when the power of posting men from one fighter control unit to another is very necessary.
I shall now turn to the second of the two big issues. The Bill provides that men who enlist in future on a Regular engagement in the Armed Forces followed by a period in the Reserves will be liable, if designated—I emphasise the word "designated" in case any noble Lords have not previously studied the Bill—-to be called out during their first year of reserve service, when warlike operations are in preparation or in progress overseas. This liability at present attaches only to men of the Regular Armed Reserve who volunteer for Section A, and men of the Supplementary Reserve who voluntarily undertake a similar liability. The Bill proposes that in future all Service reserves should have this liability. This provision is, of course, very necessary in the case of certain key personnel, who may not easily be replaced immediately on their transfer to the Reserve. In such cases, they will be individually designated—again I stress the individual designation—and they will have, in consequence, the liability which I have just mentioned. The alternative, I suppose, would be to rely on taking men from other active units, b at to-day, with the high state of technical and other kinds of training required for certain specialist categories, there would obviously be grave disadvantages in that course. Moreover, switching of men in times of emergency is likely to be impracticable if not impossible.

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The existing system of a voluntary Section A in the Army Reserve was designed, as the House will recall, to avoid just these difficulties, but it is incapable of meeting the need in modern conditions and could not be relied upon to produce the right number of Reservists of the right kind at the right time. A serious shortage in one particular requirement might destroy the effectiveness of the whole Force. Clearly, what is required is a system that will ensure the supply of Reservists of all categories and types required at precisely the right moment. This the Bill will provide and it will impose a liability on men when leaving the Regular Forces for the Reserve to be directed individually into Section A for their first year in the Reserve, though, of course, Army Reservists will still be able to enter Section A voluntarily. The Bill limits the period for which a man in Section A can be called out to a maximum of twelve months, unless the individual man should volunteer to serve longer. I should mention also that, in line with the general object of increasing the effectiveness of the Reserve Forces, the Bill provides for increasing the maximum numbers of Section A from 6,000 to 30,000, and of Supplementary Reservists volunteering for the overseas service liability from 4,000 to 15,000. Similar provisions are made for the Naval Reserve in Clauses 9, 10, and 11, and, under Clause 14 such provisions may be applied to the Air Force Reserve by Order in Council.
I hope I have been able to make clear to your Lordships the main provisions of the Bill. I must admit that, because of its wide field and application and because the Bill amends a good deal of existing legislation, its terms are not always easy to follow. I will do everything in my power later on to answer any questions which your Lordships may wish to put to me. As some noble Lords have been good enough to give me advance notice of the questions which they intend to put, the answers may be more satisfactory than would otherwise be the case. I would like again to stress the objects of the Bill. They are to modify the conditions of service of our Reserve and Auxiliary Forces so as to gain a greater readiness to meet an emergency. The Bill provides that our Reserve and Auxiliary
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Forces may be called out without proclamation and without special legislation if there is a likelihood of attack on the United Kingdom. Again, there may be minor emergencies overseas necessitating as a temporary measure the strengthening of our overseas forces. The Bill provides for the recall of the necessary men to supply a properly balanced force. These are the main provisions of the Bill, but I realise that noble Lords may wish to range more widely over these and related topics. Naturally, I will attempt to answer any of the points raised. I know from many previous debates that there exists in this House a unique collection of wisdom on this whole field, and I feel sure we shall benefit this afternoon from what noble Lords in all parts of the House have to say. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Pakenham.)
4.21 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords, when this Bill was before another place, one of my honourable and gallant friends, writing in the weekly Press, described it as "a rather technical little Bill"; and I think he got about the measure of it. 'The noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, has explained it in a clear fashion, considering that the latter part of the Bill is so complicated and technical. I have had the advantage of conversations with him on the Bill, and I would acknowledge the frank and helpful way in which he was prepared to discuss it. I hope that he has not completely exhausted the resources of his good nature, because we may have to tax him on one or two points, though of course we shall support the Second Reading of the Bill. It is a Bill far removed from political controversy and, as the noble Lord said, we are all at one in our anxiety to do the best possible for the Territorial Army and the other Auxiliary and Reserve Forces.
Before I discuss the Bill, perhaps I may use the occasion to make one or two general remarks on the Territorial Army. As your Lordships know, this House always takes a close interest in the Reserve Forces, and if it had not been known that this Bill was coming to your Lordships' House, we should probably have put down a Motion on the Order Paper

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before now. As it was, we felt we could wait until this occasion. A great deal has been said about the Territorial Army in the last few months. Territorial recruiting has been accompanied by that frustration and those difficulties which seem to be inseparable from any recruiting campaign when the country is not actually at war. Some people take a dismal view of the numbers who have been recruited, but speaking for my own part of England, although there are some units which have rather disappointingly lagged behind, I think that on the whole results have been very gratifying; indeed, it is surprising in some ways that the figures have been so good as they are.
The real test, however, is not the results of the recruiting campaign of the last twelve months; the real test will come in the middle of next year, when the National Service men first come into the Territorial Army. It is then that we shall know whether the scheme for blending the National Service men with the volunteers is to be a success, and whether it is capable, as I think it is, of being as successful as was the blending of volunteers and directed men in the Home Guard during war-time clays. To my mind, we should come to this Bill not in the spirit of pessimism but in the spirit of optimism, though I would qualify that statement by one or two things which I am going to say. In the first place, the Government can do a great deal to help, even in the short time left to us before the National Service men come into the Reserve Forces. I earnestly beg them not to change again the Director of Territorial Army and Cadets—at least not before the National Service men come in. We have had little sign of continuity in the administration of the Territorial Army at the War Office, and if it is desired to wreck the whole "show" I can tell the noble Lords opposite how to do it—namely, change the present War Office staff. I earnestly hope that we can have an assurance that the present Director and staff will be left there.
Two other things, I think, are important enough to mention in this debate, although there are many other smaller points that I could raise: First, I would refer to the question of premises, and, secondly, to allowances. The noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, knows that every
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time I have spoken, I have spoken about these two matters. I believe that they are the key to the whole position. If we want Territorial units to flourish, and if we want people to volunteer to join them, we must have the premises. At the moment, the premises are not there; and the reason is that the administrative problems have not been properly tackled. It is useless to try to acquire premises in the open market unless we are prepared to pay the market price, or are prepared to requisition them. That matter is still not going right. Although the requisitioning procedure is made to appear as if it were in operation, it is taking such a long time that it is virtually useless. There is also the effect of town planning regulations on the position. I was not in your Lordships' House yesterday, during the debate on the administration of the Town and Country Planning Act, and this point may have been raised. If so, I apologise for repeating it again. The effect of the Town and Country Planning Act on acquiring premises for the Territorial Army—and I should imagine for other Reserve Forces, though I have not firsthand information about the others—is nothing but obstruction. The Act operates entirely to frustrate and obstruct the members of associations who are trying to obtain approval for plans for premises. I earnestly beg the Service Departments, and the Ministers at the head of them to see what they can do to remove some of the spanners that are at present in the works. If that can be done, a vital contribution will have been made to the physical well-being of the Territorial Army.
The other essential is to face up to the cost of volunteering to serve in the Territorial Army, the Auxiliary Air Force or the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, and to consider how we can see that the volunteer is not out of pocket. I do not expect the noble Lord to say much about that problem this afternoon, because I believe this matter is receiving serious attention in the Service Departments. None the less, I would make the point again in public that it is no good fixing "fancy" figures for allowances if the intention of the Government is that a member of the Auxiliary Forces shall be able to attend a certain number of parades and camps, reach a certain standard of training, and yet not be out of pocket. The cost of ensuring this can be

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ascertained, and it must be faced. I say this as strongly as I possibly can, because this is the second thing which is going to make all the difference to recruiting for the volunteer forces. I do not suppose that any of your Lordships who has not been a working member of a Territorial Army Association—as have several noble Lords here this afternoon—has any idea of the frustration and unnecessary difficulties caused by bad work in these two directions, and of the fog of doubt which surrounds all the calculations which the War Office purport to make as to whether the ordinary man, working for an ordinary wage, can afford to do a second week's camp.
LORD PAKENHAM: I interrupt the noble Viscount with reluctance, but can he tell us how he thinks the procedure could be improved? I do not want to press the question now, but if the noble Viscount expects any sort of detailed reply from me I would suggest that he should be more specific. On the other hand, if he does not feel that this is the occasion to pursue it. I have no desire myself to press it further.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: Premises or allowances?
LORD PAKENHAM: Premises.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: I can certainly meet the noble Lord on that point. As I say, there are two ways of securing the premises. One is by paying the market price and authorising the association to pay the market price; and the other, if it is felt that the market price should not be paid but that the district valuer's price should 'be paid, is to see that the requisitioning procedure works properly, and that requisitioning applications are not sent back to associations asking them whether they really mean what they say. I would rather not be more specific about the Town and Country Planning Act, because that is a matter with which some of my noble friends are better equipped to deal, and I am not equipped to deal with it to-day. Broadly speaking, I would say the trouble is that the town planning regulations, as they exist, do not allow for the need for territorial headquarters in the different communities. Once we can get the idea into our heads that it is just as
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necessary—perhaps even more necessary —to have a Territorial Army headquarters as it is to have a municipal abattoir, and it is just as much an obligation on the local authority to provide it, then I feel we shall get somewhere. I hope that will assist the noble Lord.
LORD PAKENHAM: I am obliged to the noble Viscount.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: With those general comments, I will now come to the Bill itself. I have two major remarks to make about the Bill. The first concerns what I think is rather curious behaviour on the part of the War Office, as I will explain in a moment; and the second is the drafting point to which the noble Lord referred when introducing the Bill. It may or may not be known that the Territorial Advisory Council at the War Office were not consulted or informed before this Bill was introduced. I can see no reason why that should be so. I can hardly think that it represented the best of manners on the part of those responsible (I know the noble Lord was not one of them; he must not think I am including him); and, in any case, what are consumers' councils for except to be consulted on matters that are going to be of public importance? I feel that some reply is due and—I say this in advance—I would not take the answer that because it was recommended in the Committee known as the Territorial Army Finance and Organisation Committee ten or twelve years ago, that is a reason for not informing the Advisory Council when that body was reconstituted this year.
The other point is about the drafting of the Bill. We may have different views on the performance of His Majesty's Government on different matters, but one view which I feel nearly all of us share is that great strides have been made in the consolidation of existing Acts of Parliament during the time of the present Government. That is a matter that is generally approved. Therefore we are concerned to see that, in this great progress in consolidation of legislation, the legislation connected with the Auxiliary Reserve Forces, which is complicated in the extreme, is left out. We now have a Bill before us which, unless I have been wrongly advised, makes it impossible to consolidate the legislation

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dating from 1881 onwards in regard to the Auxiliary Reserve Forces. The whole subject will be left in a muddle if this Bill goes on to the Statute Book as it is, unless ii is followed by an Amending Bill.
The noble Lord said that it would need legislation on a formidable scale to produce the result that I suggest we should have. His right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Air, when introducing this Bill in another place, said that this was not practicable having regard to the present state of Parliamentary time. That is a statement to which I would venture to draw your Lordships' attention, because it seems to introduce a doctrine which is not one that I would have thought would commend itself to your Lordships—namely, that the bigger the Bill the more time it takes. On that basis, the Parliament Bill would hardly receive any discussion at all, but the Statute Law Amendment Bill, for example, would keep us until the cows come home. The fact of the matter is that, so far as this House is concerned, these drafting Amendments would not be controversial, and if any Parliamentary time was to be taken up with them it would not be taken up by my noble friends on these Benches—though noble Lords on the opposite Benches might feel inclined to do so. Therefore, I feel that this is a matter which should be re-examined. I do not know how many Orders in Council have been issued since 1917 (perhaps the noble Lord has that information) but I do want to put this as a serious point. We feel very dissatisfied with the technical state of the Bill—I am not talking about what is in the Bill—and we should all like some assurance that this business of consolidating the Acts of Parliament in regard to Reservists is going to be tackled properly.
In saying this, I want to make it clear that I am not suggesting for a moment that either of the other Services have any quarrel with the Air Ministry in this matter. One of the reasons why we suggest it, is that we are anxious—and I am sure everybody connected with associations is anxious—to see the Air Ministry and the Royal Air Force as full partners as possible in the work of the associations. A number of experienced Royal Air Force officers have been elected recently and co-opted to the committees. Some of them have been appointed vice-chairmen.
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Everybody in every association of which I have heard is glad to see them. But that does not alter the fact that we feel that this Bill is badly put together and is hindering consolidation. Nor does it alter the fact that the Secretary of State for Air, although he was introducing in another place a Bill which gave the Royal Air Force permission to adopt the provisions by Order in Council, did not take the opportunity of re-stating the policy on the Royal Air Force. In other words, do the Air Ministry mean to continue the system of administering the Auxiliary Air Force by Territorial associations, or do they mean to carry it out in some other way? I think it is fair to the associations that they should be told what is wanted. I hope the noble Lord will be able to help us in this matter, though, as I have already told him privately, if he prefers to leave it until the Committee stage, I, for one, am perfectly willing to agree.
I come now, quite briefly, to the other points in the Bill. I will not say much about the inclusion of the Army Cadet forces, because one of my noble friends will he dealing with that subject. Another of my noble friends will be dealing with the naval aspect of this Bill. I will confine myself to welcoming what I see in the Bill in those respects. At the end of the Bill is the group of clauses to which the noble Lord referred—namely, those dealing with transfers and the calling up of Reservists. We are not going to have much to say now about the question of transfers. A great deal has been said about it in another place, and we feel that the matter has been thoroughly ventilated. However, I would remark that the way to prevent people from being posted out of their regiments is not by drafting clauses of Bills, but by seeing that in peace-time those responsible for posting are working with sufficient margins to enable the posting to b e done properly and sympathetically. If you have not your margin to work on in peace-time, it does not matter what you have in a Bill. In war-time it depends on casualties and, therefore, it is not a matter which can be covered by legislation.
The other group of clauses dealing with the call-up of Reservists is a welcome addition to the law in this matter, because it is a real attempt to bring the legal position into line with operational requirements. After all, a great deal has happened since the Territorial Reserve

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Forces Act, 1907, was passed. The Royal Air Force has come into being, and the whole of the original Act was drafted without any idea of air attack or air defence. That in itself clearly made it necessary to bring the legal requirements of Reservists and Territorials, Auxiliary airmen, and so forth, into line with what people think is the probable operational course of the next war. One thing that every one of us knows, both as Service people and politicians, is that in those last tense stages before a declaration of war—and we have seen it twice—one cannot come to Parliament and ask for legislation on technical routine matters of this sort. Therefore we shall all support that part of the Bill. As I say, on the Committee stage we shall have one or two Amendments to move which are of no major consequence, except in regard to the question of the Air Ministry. One or two Amendments originate from undertakings given in another place and those we can deal with when the time comes. As I say, we shall be very glad to support the Second Reading of this Bill.
4.42 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, in the course of the last few months I have come to regard a speech from the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, as rather like a "Pimms No. 1"—bland, reassuring, nicely garnished and the "kick" not apparent for quite some time. But this time he has reverted to his standard of War Office days; he has given us a different type of speech, which has been very welcome. But even he has not been able to persuade us that this is anything but a very messy little Bill, although we nevertheless welcome it. Time will show if it will attain the objects which it sets out to attain, most of them very necessary and praiseworthy. May I turn to one or two points which the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, has himself mentioned—good ones which I should like to single out? The first is this. I am glad to see that in this Bill there is now some precise definition of the terms of service under which a Territorial soldier signs on. There has been confusion about that in the past. If my memory serves me aright, before the war very few Territorial units, if any, would take en a man unless he was prepared
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to serve in any part of the world at any time and under any conditions. I remember the consequent disillusionment in our regiment when the crisis came and we found ourselves guarding a laundry at Royston. Therefore I regard it as satisfactory that this Bill shows clearly how we now stand, so that the Territorial of the future may know exactly what are his terms of service.
The other subject which has been discussed this afternoon, and which was mentioned by my noble and gallant friend Lord Bridgeman, was this question of compulsory transfer, a matter discussed in Clause 5 (3). If your Lordships care to do a little research into the OFFICIAL REPORTS, both of this House and of another place, stretching over the last three years you will find that the subject of compulsory transfer has occupied nearly twice as much Parliamentary space as any other topic discussed in a military or defence debate. I believe that greater heat has been generated under more collars over this great subject than over any other. Therefore, it is important that we should have this matter clarified in this Bill. I naturally have great sympathy with those who find themselves the victims of compulsory transfer but, with great respect to those who have raised this matter in this House, I feel that the subject may have been exaggerated a little and capital made by those with strong local connections. As a fairly old Territorial soldier I should be the very last person to run down the effect of territorial affiliations: of course you want a man to serve amongst his fellow countrymen; and of course you want a man to serve with his friends; and you want to have everything possible done in the way of good staff work to avoid unnecessary cross-posting and transfers. I remember one Army debate—I think it was the last debate but one—when a noble Lord told us of two private soldiers in the Royal Scots Fusiliers who, but for his intervention, would have been posted to the Royal Welch Fusiliers. That sort of thing is perfectly ridiculous, although, speaking for myself, I should have thought that any regiment that can stand a goat in its ranks could take two Scotsmen in its stride.
It is necessary to bear in mind that the Royal Navy, the Royal Air Force, and indeed my own regiment, the Royal Artillery, have always had recruits from

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all counties and all walks of life. We have managed to maintain a pretty high esprit de corps, and there is more cross-posting in those branches of the Service than in many infantry units. For that reason it is well that we should have the matter clarified in the Bill. Transfers are bound to occur in the future. We have not enough men, not enough bodies to keep men in the regiments in which they want to serve; and it is no good pretending that we have. It is far better, therefore, that it should be so stated in the Bill, so that a man has no real grievance and is not disappointed if he has to part company with his friends. The reason why cross-posting may be necessary in the future is this. We shall not know exactly until May I how the entry of conscripts into the Territorial Army is going to affect us. Complicated plans have been worked out, but it may well be that too many men eventually turn up in one regiment and cross-posting will inevitably be necessary.
May I draw your Lordships' attention to the Army Estimates of 1948? On page 31 it is laid down that the Territorial Army's main function will be to provide from the outset a large proportion of the ground defence of the United Kingdom against air attack. To that end no fewer than sixty-two anti-aircraft regiments were to be raised. I do not think it is fully realised in the country at the moment what a really parlous condition our anti-aircraft defence is in. We are living in an atomic age, and I believe that our anti-aircraft defence is not fit to deal with an attack even of 1939 standards. There are many A.A. regiments which are just about capable of "scaring the daylights" out of M. Bleriot, but not of much more. If we are to take seriously that sentence in the Army Estimates we shall have to give some sort of priority to the A.A. defence of this country. In discussing this matter I am also thinking of Fighter Command, the Observer Corps and Civil Defence, Radar and so on. I myself doubt, however, whether in peace time the Territorial Army will ever reach the high standards now required to make it really effective at the outset of a war. Surely it is only common sense that those units should have priority of equipment and of training, and certainly priority of accommodation, both for barracks, drill halls and for training areas. I know that other
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units will object to this idea, and as a believer in free enterprise myself I should hate to see any C.O. of a non-A.A. unit who had done really well and who, by means known to any good C.O., had collected far more for his regiment than he was entitled to, thus penalised. I do, however, feel very strongly that we must do everything we can to strengthen the hands of A.A. Command.
The only other things I have to say about this Bill are, as my noble friend Lord Bridgeman said, Committee points —although some noble Lords in the Royal Navy or Royal Marines may think the fact that the names of their Services are printed in small letters in this Bill and the Army Cadet Force in capital letters is hardly a Committee point. May I will be the date for us to see whether this Bill does what it is supposed to do. About that time we start to get the new blood from the Regular Forces into the various volunteer Forces; and very welcome it will be. Let us get away from the idea that the Regulars may not be welcome. They will be the lifeblood of the Auxiliary Forces—we need them badly. They will be very welcome, and we hope that their units, who are now sending them out, will tell them that they will be welome, and tell them that they are going out into a friendly organisation which welcomes them. It will require much good will to make this new Territorial Ann, and this new Auxiliary Air Force work properly; but that good will exists. Muddle there certainly will be; but I am an optimist, and I believe that the scheme will work. Indeed, I am certain that it will work—it has got to work.
4.51 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, there are just one or two points concerning the Royal Navy which I should like to raise. I am glad to see that in another place amendments were made to the Bill whereby the statutory ceiling of 25,000 men for the new class of Royal Fleet Reserve has been removed. This, of course, conforms with Section (5) of the Naval Forces Act of 1903, which lays down that
"… the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Fleet Reserve shall consist of such numbers of men as the Admiralty may determine."
Therefore, I am glad to see that the prerogative of the Admiralty has been main-

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tained in this respect in this Bill. In Clause 3, subsection (2) of the Bill, no provision appears to have been made for representation of the Royal Navy on the associations. I would suggest that in areas adjacent to our large naval ports, such representation is necessary. I know it is true that the Minister in charge of the Bill in another place indicated that any functions the Territorial Association would carry out on behalf of the Admiralty, would be only very slight ones; but I think that such naval representation is still necessary. Perhaps His Majesty's Government could give some assurance that the Admiralty are, in fact, satisfied on that point. The Women's Naval Reserve Service has been, and of course rightly, excluded from this Bill; but I believe that they now have an established reserve, and perhaps the noble Lord in charge of the Bill can intimate what steps, if any, have been taken by the Admiralty for calling up the W.R.N.S. Reserve in case of emergency.
4.53 p.m.
LORD WILSON: My Lords, I should like to add a few words of approval of this Bill. The Regular Army will welcome these proposals concerning the calling up of Reserves. They certainly have the effect of strengthening and coordinating the various Acts dating back to 1882. The commitments of the British Commonwealth are global in their scope and it is necessary to ensure internal security. Your Lordships may well remember how, in the past, it has been necessary to send detachments overseas at short notice. The provision of troops for such duties has, on more than one occasion, led to the cancellation or the dislocation' of the Army training programme for the year, mainly because of the difficulty of providing supply and other ancillary services. This, in turn, was due mainly to the fact that there was no margin of this category of troops on which to draw. This Bill should enable the War Office to take the necessary action without putting out of gear the whole Army machine, and the same may well apply to the other two Services. All three Services are faced with the tremendous task of building up our national defence. In these times no call for policing duties should be allowed to jeopardise the main object of national
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security and to create, as in the past, a somewhat undignified scramble to produce the necessary personnel.
I feel that this Bill should not pass into law without a few words being said about the Army Cadet Force. This is the first occasion on which the Army Cadet Force has even appeared in the Bill, and one hopes it will soon appear in an Act of Parliament. I was pleased to note that the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, called attention to the fact that the cadets appeared in the Bill with a capital "C" while other organisations appear with a small letter; but, after all, it is well and proper that the youth of the country should have a good start! It is gratifying to see that the Army Cadet Force is first mentioned in Clause 2, subsection (3). It is at this point that the Army Cadet Force, and the Sea Cadet Corps which appears in the same paragraph, may be considered at long last to have lost their amateur status, and to have graduated from a privately run organisation into a body recognised by Parliament as being of national importance. One cannot regard this as a piece of evolution. It is a substantive amendment to the 1907 Act, Section 2 (2) of which contains a prohibition against the use of money voted by Parliament "in respect of any person in a battalion or corps in a school in receipt of a Parliamentary grant until such person has attained the age of sixteen." This subsection is repealed in Clause 2 of the Bill now before your Lordships. I welcome this change, and I am sure it will give great satisfaction to all those associated with the Cadet Movement.
The existing county cadet committees will disappear as a result of these changes, and the administration of the cadets will be carried out by the Territorial Army and Auxiliary Forces associations who, for these purposes, will contain representatives of the Cadet Force, as provided under Clause 2. I am satisfied that this change is all to the good; but there is a danger that in some cases there may be committees responsible for cadets which are not constituted for their knowledge of youth and its problems. I feel strongly that it is as essential as heretofore to have the county cadet committees as sub-committees of the Territorial associations and I hope an assurance to this effect

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will be given during the passage of the Bill.
If your Lordships will allow me, I should like to add one or two general remarks about Army cadet forces. It is indeed encouraging to observe the continued keenness that is being shown in all parts of the country by all ranks. As President of the Army Cadet Forces Association, I visited this year camps in the Eastern and Southern Commands and was much impressed with what I saw. The camps had excellent programmes arranged for them and were assisted in their administration by the Regular Army and, in some cases, by women's voluntary organisations. These summer camps are the culmination of a year's work in the local headquarters of the various units, where cadets not only spend many valuable hours in training but also are started on the road to good citizenship.
I should like to impress upon your Lordships that, in the Cadet Movement, the mainspring is the officers. It is the same with all youth movements, who find that in each unit, club or hostel everything depends on the personality of the leader and his capacity to bring out the respect and friendship of the boys. In the case of cadet forces, the departure or retirement of a platoon or company commander without careful replacement will cause that detachment to wilt and rapidly become non-effective. These officers in the Cadet Movement carry a burden and responsibility the weight and importance of which are not the less for being little recognised. Year by year they give up their leisure time to running cadet units, devoting their evenings, week-ends and, in many cases, their annual holidays to the work. They do this, moreover, without any regular assistance at their headquarters except for intermittent help with training. Not only are they expected to plan and execute the pre-Service training of their cadet units but, from the very nature of the organisation, they must also, particularly in the open units, run clubs, games and shootings and keep on friendly terms with the rest of the youth service. The country owes them a great deal.
In this connection, I would urge that as far as possible they should be treated on an equal footing financially with officers of the Territorial Army. Service with the Army Cadet Force is not intended as a source of profit, nor would
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the officers wish it to be so. Equally, however, it is not right that individuals should be materially out of pocket thereby. If, for exarnple, officers of the Territorial Army can claim their expenses for travelling from their home to their drill halls, it is surely illogical that officers of the Army Cadet Force should he denied this. It is equally important that they should not be out of pocket at camp. I should also like to urge the closest possible relations between Territorial units and organisations and the Army cadets. It is true to say that in many parts of the country they are working well together and the link is firm, but much remains tc be done. Territorial commanding officers must realise that in the ranks of the cadets will be their future leaders, both officers and non-commissioned officers, while the Army Cadet Force, for their part, must always realise that their justification, from the military point of view, will ultimately be the dividend which they pay to the Army, both Regular and Territorial.
Finally, I should like to say a word about the National Service men who next year are going to come into the Territorial units. It is from them that the Army Cadet Force will obtain their future generation of junior officers. We have an assurance that the War Office will frame regulations so as to allow National Service men to take out their Reserve service with the Cadet Force. This is intensely valuable, and I would stress its importance to the War Office, to the county Territorial and Auxiliary Forces associations and the various commanding officers who will have to put this policy into practical effect. I therefore wish to place on record my support for the Bill before the House.
5.4 p.m.
THE EARL OF LIMERICK: My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in today's proceedings. I do so, and with some reluctance, only because it so happens that day by day my life is fairly fully occupied with the matters with which the county Territorial and Auxiliary Forces associations and their Council are concerned. There are only two matters upon which I want to touch, and I can assure the noble Lord who is to speak again for the Government that there is nothing in them of which I should have given him prior notice; otherwise, I

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would now apologise for not having done so. From the point of view of the associations and the Council, I of course warmly support the hope expressed by my noble friend Lord Bridgeman, that it may be found possible to think again about this complex of measures which exists on the Statute Book and to consolidate them into one Act. We all appreciate the difficulties which lie ahead, but I can assure the noble Lord, if he needs any assurance, that such a consolidation would make our work on behalf of the Auxiliary Forces very much easier.
It would have another effect. It would introduce for the first time much more sureness into the feeling of the associations that not only are they, as they recognise, the servants of all the Auxiliary Forces but that all the Service Departments concerned are equally prepared to take them seriously and to make use of them. Naturally, where a condition exists in which one of the great Services has to contract in, then the county associations must reasonably he left in some doubt as to how far and how urgently they are needed to come in and help. We rather feel, having said on many occasions that we are most anxious to come and play, that we should like a copy of the book of rules placed in our hands. I will give two instances only to illustrate my point. Noble Lords will remember that about two years ago a committee was set up to look into the question of the Air Training Corps, the sister of that other Cadet Corps which has been dealt with so well by the noble and gallant Field Marshal who has just sat down. We have been hoping, not during the whole of those two years but, say, during the latter year, that after the hen had sat on the clutch so long we should at least hear one little "cheep"; but no "cheep" has been vouchsafed to us.
In mentioning that, I want to remind noble Lords, in case anybody in this House is not sufficiently au fait with the matter, that, although we have been told, and have long recognised, that, whereas some of us, having been born rather too early to be up to date in all matters, are still "mud-minded" and use the idiom of the mud, yet our hearts are very much in the air. The air is our first priority, and we are anxious to see reality given to that idea. We lose no oppor-
788
tunity in mentioning that in appropriate quarters and on appropriate occasions. Incidentally, I should not think it right to leave this subject without adding that, certainly in my experience, the personal touch, the cordiality and the understanding shown by members of the Air Council have been most remarkable. Where we feel a lack of reality is in the follow-up. For instance there is in existence, on paper, an Advisory Air Council. They have not yet met. The similar Advisory Council to which the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, referred have met many times in the War Office, and I venture to think that our time has not been altogether wasted.
My Lords, this consolidation, if it were possible, would prevent some thousands of men of good nature about the country, who are helping on the associations, from feeling that this urgency, this priority of the air, was a little "phony." It is our earnest desire that nobody should feel that. Therefore any assurance which the noble Lord feels himself able to give, even if a consolidated Act is not possible, that the Air Ministry intend to contract into all the activities which will follow the passage of this Bill will be gratefully received and I know will have a good effect.
5.11 p.m.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I think I have every right and every duty to be grateful for the reception the House has given to this measure. Without turning myself into a professional sycophant, I could hardly do justice to the wisdom and the credentials of noble Lords who have taken part; but I say briefly that every one of them in his different way is an expert on the subject and has contributed and is contributing to the Auxiliary and Reserve Forces in substantial measure. My only regret (if I may be allowed to express a personal regret) is that the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, did not intervene. Perhaps on a later occasion he will rectify what is regarded by me and I have no doubt by many other noble Lords as an omission on his part, because a debate of this character without the noble and gallant Viscount is not quite the same thing as it would be with him.
I must assure the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, whose position in this sphere is quite on its own, that I am certain that

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the Air Ministry is going to do all in its power. He asked me in somewhat colloquial language for a rather general pledge. I hasten to give it, although I have not been in touch with my right honourable friend since I was asked the question. Knowing his mind, however, I think my right honourable friend would give that pledge if he were here. I yen Lure to ask the House to excuse me from attempting to give a wide general review of the situation in the field of the Auxiliary and Reserve Forces, because this does not happen to be an occasion when that is altogether easy. It may be that a little later on a debate could be arranged in which the customary wide review could be given from the Government Benches. To-day, with your permission, I will confine myself to specific points that have been raised.
Some of these points are rather intricate. I do not think they can be settled to-day, but I assure noble Lords that I will gladly follow them up in discussion afterwards, if desired. The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, strongly supported by the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, referred to the question of consolidation. I can assure the noble Viscount that we take the view that, consolidation is desirable; I entirely agree with him. He made the argument that there could not be much difficulty about Parliamentary time, because such a Bill would not absorb much Parliamentary time. But, of course, it would absorb a good deal of time before it was prepared and, to put a not unimportant matter somewhat briefly, the place in the queue, so to speak, of a consolidation measure of this kind depends on the Statute Law Committee, an independent body. We must hope that the Statute Law Committee will, in accordance with our own ideas accord a place to consolidation measures of this sort. I do not accept the noble Viscount's view that this particular measure makes consolidation harder or puts it further off. It seems likely that one would need a consolidating Order in Council for the Royal Air Force at the same time as a consolidating Bill for the Army; and it would then be possible to draft a Bill to repeal Section 6 of the Royal Air Force (Constitution) Act, 1917, and embody at the same time the provisions of the existing Orders in Council governing the Royal Air Force. Whether it is done in that way
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or in some other way, I can assure the noble Viscount that the idea is sympathetically viewed. But I must not hold out any particular dale to him as the date when consolidation is likely to occur.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: I thank the noble Lord for his very fair statement on the subject. Am I or am I not to understand that the matter is being taken up by the Service Departments with the noble and learned Viscount who has just resumed his seat on the Woolsack?
LORD PAKENHAM: I am not quite clear what the phrase "taken up" means. I do not know that it has reached the level of the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack, but I can assure the noble Viscount that his proposals are viewed sympathetically in the Service Departments, and we must all hope and struggle for the best. But I say that, subject to the usual reservations and without committing anybody to any date. I hasten to assure the noble Viscount that, speak rig for the Government, I regret that the Territorial Army Advisory Committee were not consulted about this Bill. I am not going into the abstract question of whether, academically considered, they should have been consulted, but I understand from the noble Viscount that in fact he was given an assurance that they would be consulted. If only for that reason, because the assurance given to the noble Viscount was in some way overlooked, I express regret and I am sure he will be the first to accept it.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: Provided it does not happen next time.
LORD PAKENHAM: I cannot, of course, promise that kind of thing, but I do not recollect any previous case of an oversight by the War Office, and I have no reason to suppose that there will be any more. The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, speaking with his usual authority, touched briefly on those perennial and very important issues of the cost of belonging to the Territorial Army and the acquisition of premises. Here again, I feel that we are dealing with matters that, though very properly raised to-day, would he better threshed out at length in a full-dress debate on this subject. In order to remove any impression that nothing is being done with regard to premises, however, I would just

791
say that in the fifteen months from April, 1948, 187 new centres have been completed and taken into use. At the end of the period a further 102 new centres were nearing completion, and plans for a further 154 were in various stages of progress. I consider that, in all the national circumstances, no inconsiderable achievement. Then it seems to be suggested that the difficulties of securing planning clearances may have hindered the acquisition of sites. In connection with that, I would mention that 205 sites have been acquired during the same period of fifteen months from April, 1948. and have been cleared for Territorial Army centres, and the number of cases which had to be referred to the War Office because planning clearances could not be agreed locally was only fifteen. That is a relatively small number. Nevertheless, I concede to the noble Viscount that a number of delays have occurred in the past in the system of obtaining planning clearances. The present system has therefore been reviewed, and a revised procedure will shortly come into operation.
Then the noble Viscount said something about compulsory acquisition. He is probably aware that the number of cases in which resort has had to be made to compulsory powers is not great. Altogether, fifty-one cases have been considered by the War Office. In thirty-three eases approval has been given, in two eases it has been refused, and in sixteen cases, according to the latest information, the matter is still under consideration. I agree with the noble Viscount that often it takes some time, but, looking at the matter from every angle, I am sure that he and some of his noble friends would be the first to agree that full justice must be done to those whose property is being acquired. I do not think that the procedure will ever be very fast. If the noble Viscount will tell me of instances where it could be faster, or where delays have occurred, I will gladly look into them.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: I will give you one case to-morrow.
LORD PAKENHAM: I hope to give the noble Viscount a reply by the day after to-morrow, though it may be that I am being over-optimistic.
792
I would like to turn for a few minutes to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, or at any rate, one or two of his points. He asks why the Royal Navy should not be represented on Territorial associations. The Territorial and Reserve Forces Act of 1907 gives powers to associations to co-opt anybody they think fit. I am sure it is safe to say that in practice—I have not any instances which I can put before the House at the moment—naval representatives are always co-opted if they show a desire to be co-opted. I am authorised to say that if the noble Lord can give me an example where this has not occurred, and there is some complaint or grievance, I will go into it rapidly and thoroughly for him. The noble Lord also touched on the question of the W.R.N.S. and the W.R.N.S. Reserves. As he knows, the W.R.N.S. and the Reserves are not under naval discipline. There is no power to call them up. In view of the magnificent record of the W.R.N.S. hitherto, the Admiralty are entirely confident that statutory powers are not necessary to enforce a call-up. They are quite happy with the position and are willing to rely on the present voluntary basis. I hope that what I have just said reassures the noble Lord.
I was asked by the noble and gallant Field Marshal, Lord Wilson, whether an assurance could be given that associations will be required to form sub-committees to deal with cadet matters. I can certainly give him that assurance. In view of his immense interest in the Cadet Force and the large contribution which he is making to its progress, I know that he will be extremely pleased that such a provision is being made in the new Schemes of Constitution of Associations. I will gladly give him a copy of the draft Clause 17 as it will appear in the new Schemes of Constitution of Associations. I know it will satisfy him in every respect. I do not feel that your Lordships would wish me to attempt to follow or to seek to rise to the plane of the noble and gallant Field Marshal, Lord Wilson. He has old us many things from which we shall all benefit. He has asked me for various assurances or indications which it is not in my power to give to-day. I can only tell him—though I am sure he is aware of this—that everything he has

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said will be closely studied in the War Office, where he is honoured so greatly.
I would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, for what he said about me personally—though his remarks puzzled me a little. No doubt they were intended as a kind of back-handed compliment which, I suppose, is a different sort of kick from that to which he referred. However, I am sure it was well-intended and I accept it with gratitude. Lord Mancroft spoke with his usual incisiveness on these matters. He is playing a fine part in helping to get the Territorial Army going, and I am sure that all noble Lords here were particularly interested to hear what he said.
I feel that I cannot close without stressing, even though this debate is limited and technical, the immense significance that the Government attach to the Auxiliary and Reserve Forces. In saying that, of course, I have in mind very strongly and definitely the Cadet Forces. Some people may feel that, compared with the position at the time of our debate a year ago, the international situation has clarified itself, and that the need is now not quite so great. I would like to emphasise, however, that the need is as great as ever, and that to those who come forward a welcome will be given which will be every bit as warm as Lord Mancroft has asked that it should be. The need is there, the welcome is there, and the opportunity will be there. This is going to be a first-class show. All noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon have been optimists, and I am entirely at one with the optimists that this new structure which we are building is going to be a fine one, and it is going to show its true merits in the years immediately ahead of us. I am very grateful for the reception which the Bill has received in your Lordships' House. Let it go out that the House of Lords has once again, through the voices of Government and non-Government speakers alike, insisted on the urgency of these matters. Let the country be informed that we are determined to get this thing going in the right way. Let everyone realise that there are opportunities for men of all ages, either of serving or of helping in various ways these Forces, which are to-day more than ever vital to our success and to our survival as a nation.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (AMENDMENT) BILL
5.28 p.m.
Order of the Day, for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The LORD HOLDEN in the Chair]
Clauses 1 to 6 agreed to.
Clause 7 [Removal of hardships]:
LORD MILNE LORD MILNE had given notice of two Amendments in subsection (6) (relating to the composition of the arbitration committee) the effort of which was to place the name of the Association of Certified and Corporate Accountants above that of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland. The noble Lord said: The first Amendment is submitted at the instance of the representative committee. I put it forward as a drafting Amendment. I do not think it is necessary for me to say anything upon it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, leave out line 17.—(Lord Milne.)
LORD SHEPHERD: There has been an opportunity of consulting with the Association of Certified and Corporate Accountants on this matter, and as a result I am in a position to accept this Amendment. On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MILNE: I beg to move the next Amendment which stands in my name; it is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 18, at end, insert ("The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland").(Lord Milne.)
LORD SHEPHERD: We accept this Amendment also.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 8 to 14, agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved, after Clause 14 to insert the following new clause:
Additional functions of Medical Practices Committee
".Regulations made under section thirty-four of the Act of 1946 and regulations made under section thirty-five of the Act of 1947 may confer or impose on the Medical Practices Committee or, as the case may be, the Scottish Medical, Practices Committee such additional functions in relation to arrangements for the provision of general medical services as may be prescribed."
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this new clause is to add to the authority of the Medical Practices Committee. The functions of the Medical Practices Committee are at present limited technically to granting applications by doctors not yet on a medical list, for inclusion in that list. It is regarded as important that the Committee should have authority to look at all applicants for appointments. As a case in point, when a doctor on the list desires to appoint an assistant and the executive council for his area refuse the appointment the doctor should be able to appeal to the Medical Practices Committee, who may hear and determine the case. That is an illustration of the kind of extra authority which it is proposed to give to the Committee. This will also be applied to Scotland by the necessary reference to the Act of 1947. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 14, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Shepherd.)
LORD LLEWELLIN: I believe that this new clause meets a point made by the British Medical Association and that it has been agreed between that body and the Minister. But I would like the noble Lord to see whether there ought not also to be consequential Amendments to Sections 33 and 34 of the original Act. Those who advise the British Medical Association are not satisfied on this point. Section 33 expressly directs that regulations shall be made requiring executive councils and not the Medical Practices Committee to arrange for the provision of personal medical services. Perhaps there ought to be some amendment to include the Medical Practices Committee in those regulations. I am told that Section 34 may require amendment in the same way, because as it stands it limits the functions which devolve on the Medical Practices Com-
796
mittee. I do not expect to have an answer during Committee stage, but I shall be obliged if the noble Lord and his advisers will look into this point before the next stage to see whether there ought not to be these consequential amendments.
LCRD SHEPHERD: I shall be glad to respond to the noble Lord's suggestion, and will get in touch with him almost immediately.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved, after Clause 14 to insert the following new clause:
Recovery of charges in respect of pharmaceutical services
"Section thirty-eight of the Act of 1946 and section forty of the Act of 1947 (which provide for the making of arrangements for pharmaceutical services) shall be amended by the addition at the end of each of those sections of the following subsection:—
'(3) Regulations may provide for the making and recovery, in such manner as may be prescribed, of such charges, in respect of such pharmaceutical services, as may be prescribed, and may provide for the remission or repayment of the charges in the case of such persons as may be prescribed.'"
The noble Lord said: This clause gives the necessary statutory authority for the proposal already announced by the Prime Minister in another place to make a charge for prescriptions under the National Health Service. The clause is drafted in general terms because the exact nature of the arrangements to be made has not yet been settled. But, as your Lordships know, the Prime Minister has already announced that the charge will in any case not exceed one shilling and that old-gage pensioners will be relieved of the charge. In addition, the Minister of Pensions has explained that war pensioners will continue to receive free treatment for their pensioned disabilities. No further particulars can be given at this stage. The object of the proposal lying behind the Amendment is twofold: it is to act as a deterrent to excessive or unnecessary resort to doctors and chemists, and to reduce expenditure. Eventually, it may be possible to tackle these problems on other lines. The Central and Scottish Health Services Councils have set up a Joint Committee to advise whether it is desirable and practicable to restrict or discourage the prescribing by doctors in the National Health Service

797
of medicines of doubtful value or of unethical character, and of unnecessarily expensive brands of standard drugs.
The Joint Committee consists of members suggested by the Standing Medical and Pharmaceutical Advisory Committees of England and Wales, the Scottish Medical, Pharmaceutical and General Practitioner Services Advisory Committees, the three Royal Colleges, the Scottish Royal Medical Corporations, the British Medical Association, the British Pharmacopœia Commission and the Society of Apothecaries. It is too early to say yet what may be found possible on these lines, but it is conceivable that general acceptance of a list of drugs of recognised value, with the corollary that a doctor would be expected to justify the prescribing of any not so recognised or of unnecessarily expensive brands of recognised drugs, will in the long run be the better way of handling the problem. The clause will be applied to Scotland by the necessary reference to the Act of 1947. I have only one word to add: the clause is so drafted that it is of a permissive character, and will enable the Minister to vary conditions governing these practices. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 14 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Shepherd.)
LORD LLEWELLIN: I am glad that, consequent on a remark T made on the Second Reading of the Bill, the Minister of Pensions has so quickly ensured that disabled ex-Service men will not have these charges placed upon them. Previously the only persons exempt were the old-age pensioners. I think that provision will give general satisfaction. I frankly admit that I do not understand one sentence of the noble Lord's words. I have not the faintest idea of what an "unethical" medicine is. Perhaps the noble Lord will be good enough to tell us what that means. The new clause is a wide one. It gives general power to the Minister to make regulations to make charges. It would be premature to say much about them, but we shall have to watch what these regulations do when they come out. I do not know whether the line of one shilling per prescription originally adopted by the Government will work in practice. I am told that 70 per cent. of the prescriptions which are made under the National Health Service
798
are not handled by the pricing bureau, and that if we are to have a charge of one shilling for every prescription it will require a much larger staff in the pricing bureau than there is at the present time, unless the intention is to make an average adjustment, as apparently has been done so far under the Health Acts.
I would like to know from the noble Lord whether the price is to be per prescription or per item on the prescription. I am tell that a number of prescriptions given by doctors include—as one would expect—more than one item. A further mint I would like to make is that, in addition to the old-age pensioners and ex-Service people, some provision should be made so that people who regularly have to take a drug such as insulin, do not Lave to obtain a fresh prescription each time, and thereby have to pay for each issue of a drug which they must have. I am sure that is not a matter with which the Minister wants to deal when he is 'trying to get rid of abuses under the provisions of this Act. As I say, we shall have to wait and see what the regulations are, and all we can do at the moment is to allow the Minister to have the power to make them.
LORD HAWKE: I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he could tell me something which I might have looked up for myself if I had Known he intended to raise this particular issue. Can he say when the financial effect of this scheme will come into operation? The Prime Minister announced various cuts the other day, some of which were to take effect within the present financial year, and others in the next. I do not remember whether this was to appear before April 1, or after. I would also like to ask the noble Lord whether he can be tempted to give some forecast as to when, in practice, the charge will be imposed.
LORD SHEPHERD: As the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin suggested, the time for discussion of many of these details will arise when the regulations come before Parliament. Your Lordships will note that the clause we are now discussing merely gives the Minister power to prescribe the regulations. I hope that those regulations will see the light of day before long. Of course, there will have to be consultations about them. Not only will the question of prescribing be reviewed by

799
the Committee, the membership of which I recited, but I understand that there will also be consultation with the professional organisations about the details of the scheme for the recovery of charges. Therefore, many of the points which are giving rise to disquiet in certain quarters will undoubtedly be considered by the Minister before the regulations are drafted. I hope that when they come before us they will be full enough to enable your Lordships to reach a decision without being anxious about the results. The noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, put a poser to me which I find it difficult to answer. The interpretation I will hand to him is not of my own making; it is given to me in the form of a suggestion—namely, that unethical treatment by the supply of drugs appears to be something that stimulates the emotions. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to leave it at that. As to the noble Lord's statement that 70 per cent. of the prescriptions are not handled by the pricing bureau I can tell him that an attempt is being made to secure a system which, under a fairly inexpensive administration, will give us the results that we require. I can assure the noble Lord that the point he raised about the repetition of prescriptions for a given complaint will receive consideration. I cannot now give a definite reply to the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, but perhaps I shall be able to do so when the regulations are brought before Parliament.
LORD HAWKE: The noble Lord probably cannot answer my second point, as to the date when the charge will begin to be imposed. But I have no doubt that he can give me a reply to the point as to whether the Prime Minister calculated the saving in this financial year or in the next.
LORD SHEPHERD: A certain amount of it will be in this year, but we shall get the full fruits in a full year.
On Question, Amendment, agreed to.
5.47 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved, after Clause 14 to insert the following new clause:
Recovery of charges from persons resident outside Great Britain
"—(1)The powers of the Minister to make regulations under the Act of 1946 shall, notwithstanding anything in section one of that Act, include power to make regulations providing for the making and recovery, in such manner as may be prescribed, of such charges,
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in respect of such services provided under the Act of 1946, as may be prescribed, being services provided in respect of such persons not ordinarily resident in Great Britain as may be prescribed; and such regulations may provide that the charges are only to be made in such cases as may be determined in accordance with the regulations.
(2) This section shall apply to Scotland with the substitution for the reference to the Minister of a reference to the Secretary of State and for the reference to the Act of 1946 of a reference to the Act of 1947."
The noble Lord said: This clause gives power to make regulations for the making and recovery of charges for any use which may be made of the National Health Service by persons not ordinarily resident in this country. It is certainly not the intention to exclude all foreign visitors from having any of the benefits of the Health Service while they are in this country. Reasonable use of our Health Services by those who fall ill when visiting this country is, in the Minister's view. a part of hospitality; but abuse by people who perhaps come here mainly to take advantage of a free service, for which we had to foot the Bill, is quite another matter. This clause is meant as a power to check abuse. The Minister said in another place on October 19 that people should not be able to come from abroad for the purpose of exploiting the National Health Service, and that he proposed to take power to frame regulations "where it may be practicable to do so" to prevent such abuse. Any regulations which may be made will not debar any person in this country from using the National Health Service, but may require him to pay a charge for so doing. Subsection (1) of the new clause provides that the regulations made under the clause shall specify to what services the charges will apply, and what the charges are to be. The regulations will also lay down to what classes of person not ordinarily resident in Great Britain the charges will apply. Owing to the difficulty which will doubtless be met in framing regulations which will not prove too rigid in their application to individual cases it is provided that the charges shall be made only in cases where the Minister so determines. I am afraid that no further particulars are available at the present time. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 14, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Shepherd.)
LORD LLEWELLIN: Naturally the noble Lord, who has followed the course of this 13i1l in another place, will expect me to welcome this clause. It is a clause that imposes on the Minister the responsibility for making regulations to recover from overseas visitors a charge for the use of the Health Services. I would like to quote from what Mr. Bevan said in another place when speaking about an Amendment on almost identical lines. He said:
"In other words, the clause would impose on the Minister the responsibility for making regulations to recover from overseas visitors a charge for the use of the Health Service. I say at once that that is absolutely and utterly impracticable."
However, here it is, and we are very glad that on second thoughts the Minister has come to this conclusion. Your Lordships will remember that when this Bill originally came before us I said that it was a happy occasion because it was through promises of which the Bill represented the fulfilment that the original Health Service was able to come into operation at the proper time. That was three and a half years after suggestions on similar lines had been made in your Lordships' House during our discussions on the principal Act. I congratulate the Government most heartily that this time our suggestions have been adopted within three and a half weeks, and I thank them for it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15 [Superannuation of officers of certain hospitals]:
On Question, Whether Clause 15 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD LLEWELLIN: There is one point I would make on Clause 15, but not to criticise it in any way, because I am not sure that it can be altered. There is a snag which will have to be appreciated by any hospital management before availing itself of the facilities under this clause. Under this clause the employers would have round their necks an unknown and unlimited liability in the matter of a deficiency contribution to the Minister's superannuation account. This is always a difficulty, as those of your Lordships who have gone into superannuation questions know. It has happened under the Local Authority (Superannuation) Acts and from time to time they have to make good out of the rates the deficiency in the
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pension funds shown on valuation. I do not know that this difficulty can be remedied, but it is a point to which I think it is proper to draw attention, because that will be the effect if any of these bodies comes in under the provisions of Clause 15.
LORD SHEPHERD: I have made an inquiry about that, and I find that if there is an actuarial deficiency in the scheme of any particular hospital, then the payments into the fund for that hospital may be increased. But it would not he a question of making good a deficiency over the general body of hospitals. I had no previous notice of the point, and perhaps I may have a talk with the noble Lord about it.
LORD LLEWELLEN: I am much obliged.
Clause 15 agreed to.
Remaining Clauses and Schedule agreed to.
House resumed.

COAL INDUSTRY (No. 2) BILL
5.55 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR): My Lords, this is a Bill which I feel sure will receive the general welcome of the whole House, and it does not need any words of mine to commend it. The reasons for the Bill are twofold: first, that the period specified to deal with complex agreements has proved insufficient, and secondly, that the Minister is unable to deal with lie matter by regulation, as it was thought he might. There were those of your Lordships who warned us of this possibility, and they are entitled, if they feel so inclined, to say, "I told you so." We were warned that two years might be inadequate, and also that if two years were inadequate the Minister would not have power to deal with it by regulation. Both those warnings have proved correct, and those who made them are certainly to be credited with good foresight.
There are one or two points in the Bill which I should mention and which make a slight difference to the previous posi-

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tion. The Bill provides for revenue payments to be continued at one-third instead of one-half of the comparable ascertained revenue of a company, defined in the same way as in the 1946 Act, but it imposes no ultimate increase on the charges on the Exchequer. The Bill also provides that revenue payments for 1949 and subsequent years shall be payments on account of accumulating interest, and while any excess of accumulated interest over the total of revenue payments will continue to be payable, there is provision—and I know this will be acceptable to many colliery companies—for the repayment of any excess of the revenue payments over the aggregate of interest payments becoming due to a company. In effect, therefore, it provides merely for interest on account to be paid instead of its being accumulated until the amount of compensation is known. It is thought that one-third instead of one-half of comparable ascertained revenue will, in the majority of cases, approximate more closely to the interest payment becoming due. I ought to add —and this I know will also be welcomed by all my friends in the coal industry—that as a result of subsection (5) of Clause 1 it is expected to formulate detailed procedure by regulations for adequate protection to companies in regard to taxation where it is necessary to recover over-payment of revenue payments from them by deduction from compensation.
Here I ought to mention that where it is known that over-payment is likely—and this is rather an important point from the coalowner's point of view—the Ministry are prepared to pay a lesser amount than the one-third in order to avoid overpayment and the consequent difficulties. Revenue payments are, of course, subject to profits tax and income tax, and clearly this has to be allowed for in calculating the net amount to be repaid in the event of over-payment. A company should not —and with this I know your Lordships will agree—pay taxes on more than they ultimately retain. I am satisfied in my own mind that the primary reason for the Bill is that the job attempted was too big to be completed within two years. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
5.58 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, we on these Benches certainly do not resist this Bill and we realise its necessity. On the other hand, however, I should like to make one or two observations upon it. In the first place, I trust that the noble Lord who introduced the Bill has been able to understand the drafting of it better than I have. In Clause 1 (2) there is a paragraph of twelve lines with only one or two commas, and I suggest it is a masterpiece of obscurity to anyone not versed in legal jargon. I would venture to draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that almost three years have elapsed since the passage of the Coal Nationalisation Act, and yet it is true to say that roughly 90 per cent. of the colliery companies have not yet received their compensation units on which, of course, final compensation must be based. I understand that this Bill is largely designed to extend those revenue payments to colliery companies in view of the fact that the principal Act laid down that such payment should be payable only for a period of two years. During the passage of the principal Act it was indicated by His Majesty's Government, as mentioned by the noble Lord who introduced the Bill, that compensation would be completed within two years. I do not think the noble Lord who introduced the Bill to-day has put forward any satisfactory reasons for the delay.
The Minister of Fuel and Power has stated in another place that the delay was in no way caused by the colliery companies—a statement for which the colliery interests are grateful. But, in fact, it is abundantly clear that the whole matter is within the responsibility of the Minister of Fuel and Power and his Department, and of no one else. It is not generally realised that no capital compensation of any kind has been paid except on account of certain assets which are outside the global sum. I hope the noble Lord who introduced the Bill will give some assurance that His Majesty's Government will' speed up the assessments and payment of compensation.
Your Lordships will notice that this Bill also lays down that revenue payments are to be continued at one-third instead of one-half the comparable ascertained revenue of the companies. I understand that this reduction has been

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made because it is considered that one-third will approximate more closely to the actual interest payments which will fall due. I should like to ask whether during, the last two years it has been found that the figure of one-half of the comparable ascertained revenue has been too great. But my only real criticism is that there is nothing in the Bill as it stands to speed up compensation payments, and I hope we may have some assurance given us this evening in that respect.
6.5 p.m.
LORD RENNELL: My Lords, I welcome this Bill. I do not think the complaint that there has been undue delay in settlement is valid. It is clear that in assessing compensation for an industry of this size a great deal more than the original two years provided for was inevitable. I personally have not heard of any complaint of undue delay, and it might he a little unfair to the Government if that accusation were to go out. At the same time, I want to express my apprehension about the obscurity of the wording of this amending Bill. There were a good many complaints about the wording of the original Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, as your Lordships may remember. Largely as a result of efforts made by the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, a great many of these passages were cleared up and made more comprehensible. There are here three and a half pages of English which it is very difficult to understand. In contrast with this it is amusing to note the words of the Minister who introduced the Bill in another place. He summarised the Bill in one sentence of four lines. What he said was:
"In effect, it simply provides for interest on account to be paid instead of being accumulated and then paid at the end when the capital compensation is finally settled."
The whole Bill is largely a question of words, and I take strong exception to the intolerable jargon employed, which I regard as deplorable.
Another point I wish to make is in connection with the method of compensation for the taking over of the coal mines, as compared with the method of compensation in other industries that have been nationalised. Perhaps I may be allowed to read an extract from the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry
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of Fuel and Power in another place. He said:
"If anything, this debate has proved one thing, and that is that the Government were absolutely right when they decided not to proceed in subsequent nationalisation measures to secure compensation on the same basis as in the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act."
I am not aware that anybody has complained in the case of the coal industry about delay, or that anybody would have preferred any other scheme of compensation such as was introduced in the case of the electricity, gas and railway nationalisation measures. The Bill does not in itself provide a motive for altering the system—or it should not. If it was right to compensate an industry in this way, I submit that it was right to compensate other industries in the same way; the justification advanced for changing the method was not, in my view, a justification which ought to have been advanced. I do not believe that anybody to-clay will complain on grounds of delay about the method of compensation in the coal industry and it is a pity that a conclusion of this sort was drawn in the debate in another place. What matters is that the compensation payment should be just—not necessarily that one method of payment is quicker than another.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: It is intended to speed up the machinery and, in particular, to explore the possibility of payment in partial satisfaction. On the other point that was raised, I do not think I can say any more, except that to-day I could not speak regarding overpayment of revenue payments until the amount of compensation is known. We do not know it at present.
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

TELEGRAPH BILL
6.7 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a Second time. The Bill is drawn in general terms and it has reference to only one part of the country, the City of Hull. The telegraph service in the City of Hull is under the ownership of the City and not

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of the Post Office. In the war period the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day found it necessary to place a levy on telephone users as a contribution towards the war effort. That levy ranged from 15 per cent. for ordinary users to 25 per cent. for special users. It was made clear, both by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and by the Postmaster-General, that that was the case. In recent years, however, that extra charge has been used for the upkeep of the service; it is due to the rise in costs. That being so there did not appear to be any justification for continuing the levy on the City of Hull, because the City of Hull, being responsible for its own costs, could not be expected to take a share in the costs of Great Britain as a whole.
The purpose of this Bill is to enable the City of Hull to cease paying this extra contribution that was levied during the war period. It will mean a reduction in their taxation for the City of Hull of about £25,000. The new conditions will apply immediately in that city to all the new users; and in the case of present users the reduction will apply as mid when the terms of their agreement with the Corporation cease. In the meantime in the City of Hull, the charge will continue to be levied upon these users.
Moved, That the Bill he now read 2a.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

VEHICLES (EXCISE) BILL [H.L.]
6.10 p.m.
House in Committee (according to Order), on re-commitment of the Bill: the Amendments proposed by the Joint Committee made.

PATENTS BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): on re-commitment of the Bill: the Amendments proposed by the Joint Committee made.
REGISTERED DESIGNS BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): on re-commitment of the Bill; Bill reported without amendment.
EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE (No. 2) BILL
Read 3a (according to Order) and passed.
FIFE COUNTY COUNCIL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.

IRON AND STEEL BILL
Returned from the Commons with their disagreement with the Amendments on which the Lords have insisted, insisted on, but Amendments proposed in lieu thereof: the said Amendments to be printed.
House adjourned at a quarter past six o'clock.