COMMONWEALTH TELEGRAPHS BILL (Hansard, 26 May 1949)

§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL)
I must apologise to the noble Lord opposite and to the Committee for not being present when the first Amendment was moved. I hope your Lordships will agree that our business this afternoon has not taken quite the normal and expected course. What the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, seeks to do is to make this clause mandatory, instead of leaving it permissive as it is at the moment. A point I should like to emphasise is that we have every reason to suppose that no occasion will arise for any person covered by this clause to claim compensation. That is the first point. That being so, there seems to be no reason for regulations to be made at this moment—and, of course, if the noble Lord's Amendment were inserted, then the Postmaster-General would have to make these regulations, whether they are applied or not. I know that the noble Lord and many of his friends have often complained that too many regulations are made by Government Departments. I hope, therefore, that on this occasion they will feel 1197 that one regulation less may be rather welcome. I should like to say further—and this is an assurance which I hope will give comfort to the noble Lord opposite—that it a single case of this kind were to arise, if one case of hardship were to arise, the Postmaster-General would make the appropriate regulation to cover it. I can give that firm assurance. That being so, I hope the noble Lord will feel that there is no reason whatever to fear that arty individual will be handicapped because Parliament is not insisting on the making of regulations at this stage.
The next point I should like to make is in regard to the fears of the noble Lord, that there are certain individuals who, because their conditions of employment have suffered, might put forward what they consider to be reasonable claims. If he is thinking of those persons whose conditions of employment were changed as a result of the company being taken over by the Government in 1946, I can assure him that the claim of such persons would not be covered by this clause. This clause applies only to changes and conditions of employment which result from the Bill we are now considering. The changes which the noble Lord probably had in mind, and which certainly other persons had in mind, were changes which resulted from the agreement negotiated during 1946, which came into effect on January 1, 1947.
My third and last point is that the staff associations which represent the interests of the individuals he has in mind have been carefully consulted, and they agree with the provisions of Clause 7 as they now stand. They consider that the clause covers the interests of their members. I am sure we all appreciate the noble Lord's desire to see that the employees of Cable and Wireless in the United Kingdom do not suffer as the result of their transfer to employment under the Post Office. That is a desire we all share. I hope very much that the noble Lord will be satisfied, from what I have said, that their interests are safeguarded by the clause as it now stands.

§ LORD TWEEDSMUIR
I am obliged to the noble Earl for his lengthy and detailed reply, somewhat long-awaited. I gather from what he said that those whom this clause is meant to safeguard are probably few in numbers, if any exist at all. It is possible that no claims may be 1198 made under this clause. There is some force in what the noble Earl says about not making regulations and so wasting Parliamentary time, until such a case comes forward. I think that in legislation it is important to choose words which will allow those who read the law to see the manifest of our good intention. I am not so much concerned with the form as with the substance. I welcome the noble Earl's firm assurance that if any such person comes forward regulations will be made, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL
My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will agree that his Amendment is unnecessary, because I can assure him that appellants will be in exactly the same position as witnesses, and will not have to pay their own expenses. In this Bill we are applying exactly the procedure already applied under other Acts, such as the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act and the Transport Act, which transferred staffs from employment in private companies to employment by public authorities. Under all these nationalisation measures, where appeal tribunals have been appointed a man with a grievance about pay or pension can apply in person; and in that event his reasonable out-of-pocket expenses will be covered. I have here, but I will not read it because I do not want to bore your Lordships with an unnecessarily lengthy speech at this stage of the proceedings, a book of instructions issued by the Department to officials of the Ministry of Labour, which authorises them to pay subsistence allowances and travelling expenses for appellants, if they ask for them.
I am glad to give a firm assurance that appellants under this Bill will be entitled to claim travelling expenses and allowances for attendance before tribunals set up under the Bill. An additional reason why we do not wish to amend the Bill is that Clause 8 is common form in this type of Bill, and any Amendment made would cast doubt on the interpretation of other Acts and would make uncertain the position of appellants under existing Acts. In the light of these arguments, I ask the noble Lord to reconsider his Amendment.

§ LORD TWEEDSMUIR
I am much reassured by the words of the noble Earl. I understand that if these words were inserted, they would conflict with similar clauses in other Acts of Parliament and might to some extent shake the public faith in them—and I dare say it would not stand very much shaking! I am much relieved to receive the noble Earl's assurance regarding costs for appellants and, though it does not specifically say so any- 1200 in the Bill, I am glad that they will be covered. We want to see justice done: we are not fussy about the form so long as we can secure the substance.