HL Deb 05 May 1949 vol 162 cc333-8

3.5 p.m.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]

Clause 1:

Schemes for subsidy payments in respect of calves.

1.—(1) The appropriate Minister may, in accordance with a scheme made by him with the approval of the Treasury, make, out of moneys provided by Parliament, payments in respect of calves of such descriptions as may be specified in the scheme, being calves born during the period beginning with the twenty-first day of August, nineteen hundred and forty-seven and ending with the first day of October, nineteen hundred and forty-nine, and reared to such age as may be so specified.

LORD CARRINGTON

On behalf of my noble friend Lord Bledisloe, who is unable to be here, I rise to move the first of a series of Amendments standing in his name. They all have a similar purpose. My noble friend thinks it would be misleading to describe as "calves" the animals referred to in Clause 1, owing to their age, and he wishes to substitute the words on the Marshalled List. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 8, leave out ("calves") and insert ("bovine animals").—(Lord Carrington.)

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON)

I think this Amendment arises out of a misunderstanding on the part of the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe. The subsidy scheme deals entirely with calves. If I remember aright, in his speech on the Second Reading, the noble Viscount suggested that the subsidy might be paid on animals born eighteen months ago. In practice, the subsidy has been paid, and is payable, on calves not more than twelve months old. In view of that I would suggest that it might be better to keep the expression "calves" than to substitute for it "bovine animals."

LORD CARRINGTON

I am much obliged to the noble Earl, and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clauses 2 to 4 agreed to.

Clause 5 [Power of Ministers to make schemes for subsidising grass and forage crop conservation]:

LORD CARRINGTON

On behalf of my noble friend Lord Bledisloe, I beg leave to move this Amendment, the purpose of which is to clarify the situation and to make sure that grants and loans—as opposed to grants or loans—can be given to farmers to help to preserve their varied crops. The Bill at present reads: … financial assistance … by way of grant or loan … and so on. The purpose of this Amendment is to ensure that there is a blend of both grant and loan. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 36, after ("loan") insert ("or both").—(Lord Carrington.)

THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

Perhaps I may be allowed to clarify the position. The important words in this clause are: "financial assistance," which may be given by grant or loan, or partly by grant and partly by loan. Financial assistance could be given under any of those terms or degrees of those terms. I hope that in view of this the noble Lord will think fit to withdraw the Amendment.

LORD CARRINGTON

I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 [Powers of Milk Marketing Boards to conserve grass and forage crops and provide artificial insemination services]:

EARL DE LA WARR

On behalf of my noble friend Lord Bledisloe, I beg to move this Amendment, which is really of a drafting nature. One cannot help thinking that the clause might be made a little clearer, and that might be done by inserting the word "Marketing." I thought that at any rate the point was worthy of submission to the Government. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 27, leave out ("board") and insert ("Marketing Board").—(Earl De La Warr.)

THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

We appreciate the intention of the noble Viscount and of the noble Earl in moving this Amendment. In practice, under the original Marketing Acts, any board administering a scheme would have to be a Marketing Board; and if we were to accept the Amendment it would mean further alterations throughout the Bill. In the light of those considerations, perhaps the noble Earl may think fit to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 6 agreed to.

Clause 7 [Miscellaneous amendments of enactments relating to milk and dairies]:

EARL DE LA WARR

This again is rather in the nature of a drafting Amendment. But no doubt the noble Earl has the best legal advice, and I shall be quite prepared to accept whatever he says after consideration. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 10, leave out ("infected") and insert ("infectious").—(Earl De La Warr.)

THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

We have given careful consideration to this Amendment. The position, however, is that under the Food and Drugs Act of 1938 the word "infected" has been used, and we think it would be better to keep the same wording in this Bill, so as to avoid any difficulty in future administration. That being so, perhaps the noble Earl may care to withdraw his Amendment.

EARL DE LA WARR

In view of what the noble Earl says, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 7 agreed to.

Clause 8 [Provisions as to training for agricultural occupations]:

LORD CARRINGTON moved, in subsection (1) after "occupations" to insert "or occupations ancillary thereto." The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to widen the scope of this clause, which makes provision for the training of young people, to include trades ancillary to agriculture, such as that of the farrier, the thatcher and the repairer of agricultural implements All those trades are essential to the proper working of the farm. Many of them are sadly in need of encouragement. This would seem to be a good way of giving that encouragement. I hope that the noble Earl will see his way to accept this Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 36, after ("occupations") insert ("or occupations ancillary thereto").—(Lord Carrington.)

THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

We have complete sympathy with the intention of this Amendment, particularly after the eloquent way in which it has been moved by the noble Lord. I am afraid however that I must resist the Amendment because this training is already being provided by the Ministry of Labour under the Employment and Training Act, 1948. When we first considered the question of training, it was thought that such ancillary occupations as those of farriers or machine fitters and so on, could much more easily be taught in special classes, and would therefore come better under the Ministry of Labour scheme rather than under the Ministry of Agriculture, under various private employers. However, there is one exception—namely, the trade of thatching, for which training is given by employers under the Ministry of Agriculture's general scheme. Therefore, in view of the fact that those other vocational training branches are fully dealt with under the Ministry of Labour scheme, I hope the noble Lord will agree to withdraw this Amendment.

EARL DE LA WARR

In view of the noble Earl's remarks, I think that this Amendment is perhaps rather a point of substance. Quite apart from whether this training is under the Ministry of Labour or not, if he could give us an undertaking that the point will be dealt with and will not fall between two stools, then perhaps my noble friend would not press his Amendment.

LORD CARRINGTON

The noble Earl mentioned the question of thatchers. Are they included in this clause as agricultural workers, or do they come under neither the Ministry of Labour nor this clause?

THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

In practice, they come under the Ministry of Agriculture. There is a further difficulty in this Amendment. I did not raise this in the first place as it did not seem necessary to do so, but, if we accepted it, it might raise a question of Privilege. In theory it would extend the money grant to these ancillary occupations as well as to the original agricultural and horticultural occupations as specified in the Money Resolution. Quite apart from that, I will willingly undertake to give the assurance asked for, that we will give great attention to the necessary training in regard to the ordinary blacksmith, farrier and so forth. I should like to assure the noble Lord too that thatching will receive adequate attention.

LORD CARRINGTON

In thanking the noble Earl for his reply, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

EARL DE LA WARR

This is a purely drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 39, after ("employment") insert ("therein").—(Earl de la Warr.)

THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

We shall be pleased to accept this Amendment, which does clarify the position.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 9 and 10 agreed to.

Clause 11 [Amendments as to penalties under Destructive Insects and Pests Act, 1877]:

THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

This is purely a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 16, leave out ("and Pests").—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining Clauses agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.

House resumed.

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