COAL INDUSTRY BILL (Hansard, 2 June 1949)

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
My Lords, may we now return to coal for a moment? I want to make it quite clear to the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, and to the Government that we are making no personal accusations against him, or suggesting that he was wittingly or intentionally misleading the House. I am sure that nothing is further from our minds than that. But undoubtedly there was a suggestion in his speech that the Coal Board could have provided this coal which was needed in Ireland, and that the private exporter, instead of using the facilities of the Coal Board, went elsewhere. I think that is clear from a remark which the noble Lord made (Column 618 of Hansard): Let us be quite clear on this matter. Sometimes we may accept inferior coal because of differentiations of price, as the noble Lord suggests. What happened in a country very near here was that British coal was being sold. A British exporter offered Polish coal in preference to British coal, and the Polish coal was bought and the British coal"— which was there— left unsold. Then the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, asked: Was ours available? and the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, said: Our coal was available, the same kind of coal as they had been receiving for years. What the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, has said this afternoon, after very careful inquiry, is that in the first three months of this year deliveries of 1383 British coal were 80,000 tons short, and the bulk of this deficiency was in domestic and industrial coal. The Irish wanted large coal, which the National Coal Board could not supply. It is not a question of making accusations against anyone, but there is a complete difference of fact over that. The noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, said the coal was available; the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, said that it was not available, which makes a very considerable difference to the situation. I think we should all agree that if British coal had been available in sufficient quantities, and at a price which the buyer was willing to pay, obviously the coal exporter ought to have provided British coal. We are all agreed about that. But, supposing that he could not provide the type of coal which the buyer wanted at the price which the buyer wished to pay, then I think he was perfectly right to get where he could the type of commodity which was required. If he had not done that, as the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, has already said, the Irish would have gone straight to the Poles and we should have lost that market.
I do not want to rouse any heat over this matter, but I think it ought to be cleared up. I hope that in future it may be possible for the noble Lord opposite to make further inquiries to make certain that the facts that he states on his information are correct; otherwise a very large part of his argument against this Amendment falls to the ground.

§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR
My Lords, may I just say one sentence? I am advised that, had the Coal Board possessed the powers which were in Clause 2 and which were taken out, this sale to which I referred would not have taken place.

§ VISCOUNT SWINTON
Surely that implies that coal of the quality and price which the Irish demanded was available?

§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR
It was.

§ VISCOUNT SWINTON
Then it is a difference on fact, for we all speak on instructions.

§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR
Yes.

§ VISCOUNT SWINTON
My Lords, as regards his information, no doubt the 1384 noble Lord has been instructed by his Department. As the House will know, I never make a statement here without having verified it to the best of my ability. Every statement that I have made here to-day has been certified to me by the British coal exporters. Their statement is plainly this: that they could not get the coal, the large coal, of the quality which Ireland wanted from the Coal Board, and it was the Irish who said to them: "We cannot get this coal. Therefore, we ask you, can you supply Polish coal?" I can say no more than that it is a most extraordinary thing if the Coal Board had the large coal available. Every merchant being only too anxious to buy British coal, why did not the Coal Board supply that coal to the merchants?

§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR
My Lords, either I was misinformed, or the noble Viscount was misinformed.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
My Lords, we cannot go on with a Third Reading debate as though it were a Committee stage. Even in this House that would not be permissible. I do not think that we can take this matter any further to-day, but I am of the opinion that it must be cleared up. Therefore I hope that the noble Lord, perhaps over the Whitsun Recess, will make inquiries. We might put down a Question which would enable him to give your Lordships an informed answer.

§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR
This Amendment will go back to another place, where I think there will be an opportunity for it to be cleared up. Then, if it is desired to clear it up here, that can be done.

§ VISCOUNT STANSGATE
My Lords, I trust that the procedure in this House will not prevent the continuation of the powerful exposition of the case for free trade which we have heard to-day from the Conservative Benches!

LORD HAWKE
My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord for the way that this matter has been finally explored to its ultimate conclusion. I think our intentions have been exactly met. Our intentions were that this clause should in no way allow the National Coal Board to terminate a contract which was of an ordinary commercial character, notwithstanding that it might cause them considerable financial loss to continue it. As our intentions have been met in that matter, we are only too pleased to see the Bill as it now stands.