HL Deb 28 July 1949 vol 164 cc695-9

Clause 9, page 7, line 12, at end insert— ("(iii) (a) if in relation to any dwelling the Secretary of State (after consultation with the Agricultural Executive Committee and District Wages Committee having jurisdiction within the area in which such dwelling is situate) certifies that such dwelling is necessary for the proper and efficient carrying on of an agricultural holding, the provisions of paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section eleven of this Act shall not apply with respect to such dwelling during such period as such certificate continues in force;

(b) any certificate granted by the Secretary of State as aforesaid may be revoked by him if he is of opinion that the dwelling to which it relates is no longer necessary for the proper and efficient carrying on of the said agricultural holding but before any such certificate is revoked the Secretary of State shall consider any representations made to him by the owner of the dwelling or by the tenant of the said holding;

(c) where any such certificate granted by the Secretary of State is revoked as aforesaid the owner of the dwelling to which the certificate related shall within a period of three months pay to the local authority the like amount as would become payable to them under subsection (2) of section eleven of this Act in the event of a breach at the date of the revocation of the certificate of any of the conditions specified in subsection (1) of the said section and in the event of the owner failing to pay such amount as aforesaid the provisions of paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section eleven of this Act shall extend and apply to the dwelling in like manner as they would have applied if in the absence of a certificate from the Secretary of State an improvement grant had been made in respect of the dwelling.")

The Commons disagreed to the above Amendment for the following Reason:

Because it is undesirable that improvement grants should he given except in respect of dwelling houses occupied by the owners or by tenants who have the protection of the Rent Restrictions Acts, and because administrative arrangements required by the Amendment would involve uneconomic of man-power.

6.24 p.m.

LORD MORRISON

My Lords, I beg to move that this House do not insist on the Amendment to which the Commons have disagreed. Noble Lords will remember that the Amendment with which we are now dealing was moved by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, with the object of admitting a limited number of farm cottages to improvement grants under the Bill without the application of the condition that the cottages must be occupied on an ordinary tenancy basis. The machinery for doing so was to be that of a certificate by the Secretary of State that he was satisfied that the dwelling was necessary for the proper and efficient carrying on of an agricultural holding.

The Secretary of State has asked me to say that he has given careful consideration to the Amendment and to the arguments advanced by the noble Lords who supported it. He is most anxious that a solution should be found to this problem. While the Amendment goes some way towards such a solution, he felt that it has certain defects which prevented him from advising that it be accepted in another place. In particular, he felt that its terms did not touch the kernel of the problem as he had encountered it; the risk in the occasional case—the very occasional case—that the occupier of a State-aided cottage might be turned out at too short notice and without due process of law. We are not suggesting that this would happen often, but it might. That is the sore spot and the Amendment does not touch it.

As I have said, the Secretary of State regrets that it has not been possible to find a solution acceptable to both parties—even a compromise solution; but he is still open-minded and anxious to find one. These discussions which we have had have narrowed the issue, and in that respect have been helpful. At this stage, the only course left is to let the Bill go and give it a trial, but at the same time to encourage all efforts to narrow the issue still further. The Secretary of State believes that both sides of the industry should give further thought to the problem. Sooner or later, the need for improving the Bill will arise; and if a solution emerges then the Secretary of State will be ready to consider it. I beg to move that this House do not insist upon the said Amendment.

Moved, That the House do not insist upon the said Amendment.—(Lord Morrison.)

6.26 p.m.

LORD POLWARTH

My Lords, on the Second Reading of this Bill I said that I felt rather like the twelfth man who was being called on to play in a side, so perhaps it is not entirely inappropriate that at every stage the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, and myself have found ourselves making last wicket stands. If we were to insist on this Amendment, however reasonable we think it is, we realise that it would mean that the Bill could not pass into law for several more months. As I have said before, we on this side of your Lordships' House are extremely anxious to see the Bill come into effect, particularly in order that those who stand to benefit most from the operation of it—namely, those in the towns and cities of Scotland—should have the advantages of it at the earliest, possible moment. For that reason, we must, reluctantly, allow the Bill to go through at the moment.

At the same time, we are sorry that His Majesty's Government have not thought fit to accept what we consider to be a constructive and reasonable Amendment. We feel, too, that we must express our disappointment at the limited consideration which has been given to this matter, for, after all, it is only two days since the Amendment left this place. The consideration given to the problem, in our view, has been very short. What is still worrying us is the decision which the Secretary of State for Scotland has reiterated since the Bill left this place, that he is powerless to act in this matter until he has the agreement of the Scottish Farm Servants' Union. We feel that, as a matter of public policy, it is entirely wrong, that the proper housing of the people, and particularly where it affects agricultural production, should be held up simply because a small body, a very small proportion of the agricultural community, object. They have adopted what is something of a "dog in the manger" attitude in doing so. While it is a poor consolation to those who in the next few years ma" find themselves living in cottages which it has not been possible to improve, I think it should be widely known that this reason is still preventing a solution to this problem being reached. I must say, however, that on this subject we have heard a more co-operative note on this occasion than we have heard for a long time. I hope it augurs well for the future.

6.28 p.m.

LORD CLYDESMUR

I think your Lordships will have listened with some disappointment to the message from the Secretary of State for Scotland which the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, read. Yet it is evident that the Secretary of State has been impressed with the desire of this House to find a solution to the deadlock that has been reached. Personally, I am not without hope that later on a satisfactory solution may be reached. I feel that if we had not been hurried so greatly, if this matter had not come on so late in the Session, it would have been possible even now to devise something to meet the difficulties about occupiers being turned out, et cetera. I believe we might have formulated a workable Amendment. I hope that the matter will be considered by the Department concerned. I have a feeling that what has happened is that the Secretary of State has not been allowed to let go the coattails of the English Bill. The English Bill, as your Lordship know, has passed into law without any provision for improving tied houses. This suggested Amendment was put forward to meet the difficulty, which was a real and obvious one, of ensuring that al abuses shall be guarded against. But, as I say, I fear that the Secretary of State and his Department have not found it possible to let go the coat-tails of the English Bill. There we must leave the matter for the present. We want the Fill to become law as soon as possible, but we desire to express the earnest hope that this particular matter will be considered in the Department later and that it may be possible to bring in an Amendment to this measure which will achieve the desired result.