HL Deb 20 July 1949 vol 164 cc302-11

9.57 p.m.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair]

Clauses 1 to 6 agrees to.

Clause 7 [The Mental Nurses Committee]:

LORD MORRISON

May I say at the outset that, while there are a good many Amendments to this Bill on the Marshalled List, the great bulk of them are either drafting or consequential Amendments, and the others are Amendments dealing with minor points on which, to the best of my knowledge, there is no difference of opinion? This Amendment is preliminary to the next Amendment, and both are drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 5, line 8, at beginning insert— ("The following matters, namely (a)") —

(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 5, line 12, after ("question") insert("and (b) any matter relating to the training of persons for admission to the supplementary part of the register containing the names of nurses trained in the nursing and care of persons suffering from mental diseases or to the supplementary part of the register containing the names of nurses trained in the nursing and care of persons suffering from mental defect "). —(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

This is also a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 13, after ("question") insert ("as aforesaid").—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

This is another drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 22, after ("Committee") insert ("on behalf of the Council").—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 [Registration of nurses trained abroad]:

LORD MORRISON

This is a drafting Amendment. With the two following Amendments it makes it clear that a nurse trained abroad must have successfully completed his training and must have passed any examinations attached to it before he can claim to be registered in Scotland under this clause. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 40, leave out from ("that") to ("in") in line 42 and insert ("in a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, he successfully completed his training either generally as a nurse or as a nurse of some special class").—(Lord Morrison.)

LORD CLYDESMUIR

This seems only to follow the English example, but we on this side do not object to it for that reason. It seems a desirable thing to ensure that the training has been satisfactorily completed, and we agree with the noble Lord's Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 5, leave out ("has been trained") and insert ("successfully completed his training").—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

This Amendment also is consequential. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 8, leave out ("he has been so trained") and insert ("his training was").(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

This is a drafting Amendment which transfers the words mentioned in the Amendment to their grammatically appropriate place in the clause. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 15, leave out ("if they are satisfied that he is of good character").(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

The last Amendment left out these words in line 15. This Amendment inserts them in line 16. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 16, after ("may") insert ("if they are satisfied that he is of good character"). —(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 9 [Closing of parts of the register]:

LORD MORRISON moved, after subsection (2) to insert: () No request under the last foregoing subsection shall be made by the Council with respect to—

  1. (a) the supplementary part of the register containing the names of nurses trained in the nursing and care of persons suffering from mental diseases;
  2. (b) the supplementary part of the register containing the names of nurses trained in the nursing and care of persons suffering from mental defect; or
  3. (c) the supplementary part of the register containing the names of nurses trained in the nursing of sick children,
unless the Council are satisfied that means exist whereby members of the public can readily ascertain whether a registered nurse has been trained in the nursing and care of persons suffering from mental diseases or in the nursing and care of persons suffering from mental defect or in the nursing of sick children as the case may be.

The noble Lord said: This Amendment is rather lengthy. It debars the General Nursing Council from asking for the closure of the principal supplementary parts of the Register unless they are satisfied that other means exist for enabling nurses with special training to be identified by the public. What would happen in practice is that, when the supplementary registers are closed, the Council would attach an appropriate distinguishing mark in the main Register to the names of nurses who had undergone particular forms of training, and who would under present conditions have their names entered on the appropriate supplementary Register. The Amendment corresponds to one made to the English Bill on Report stage in your Lordships' House. Apart from the merits of the Amendment, it is desirable that there should be similar provisions on this subject in the English and in the Scottish Bills because of the statutory reciprocity between the Scottish and the English registers of nurses. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 36, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Morrison.)

LORD CLYDESMUIR

We agree that this is a desirable Amendment. The drafting differs slightly from the English version for technical reasons. I understand that in Scotland nurses for mental defectives are entered in a separate supplementary part of the Register. Hence the difference in wording. I presume the same end is achieved?

LORD MORRISON

Yes.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10 [Provisions relating to the approval of training institutions]:

LORD MORRISON

This Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 7, line 32, leave out from the beginning to ("may") in line 36 and insert— The Council shall notify their final determination of any such question as aforesaid to the persons to whom they are required by the last foregoing subsection to give such a notice as is therein mentioned and any such persons.—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

This Amendment is consequential on the last Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 37, leave out ("such person") and insert ("them").—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

This Amendment relieves an appellant from the necessity of himself applying to the Lord President of the Court of Session for the appointment of arbiters to decide his appeal. The procedure contemplated is that the appellant will notify the Council of his desire to have the matter referred to such arbiters, and the Council will then make the necessary application. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 39, leave out from ("appointed") to ("by") in line 40 and insert ("for the purpose").—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

This Amendment and the next correct drafting defects. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 42. leave out ("nominated") and insert ("appointed").—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 43, leave out ("section") and insert ("subsection").—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 11 to 14 agreed to.

Clause 15 [Allowances to members of the Council and the Assistant Nurses Committee]:

LORD MORRISON

This also corrects a drafting defect. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 14, at end insert ("as the case may ho").—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 16 to 18 agreed to.

Clause 19 [Interpretation]:

LORD MORRISON

This Amendment makes it clear that references in the Bill to supplementary parts of the Register include references to parts not specifically created by the 1919 Act as supplementary parts, but which have been set up by rules made in pursuance of that Act. The only statutory supplementary parts are the parts for male nurses, for mental nurses and for sick children's nurses; the parts for nurses for mental defectives and for fever nurses have been set up by rules. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 11, line 11, at end insert— ("" supplementary part of the register" means a supplementary part thereof mentioned in subsection (2) of section two of the Act of 1919 or prescribed in pursuance of paragraph (e) of that subsection").— (Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

First Schedule: 3. Of the members of the Council appointed by the Secretary of State two shall be registered nurses employed by local health authorities appointed by him after consultation with such persons and bodies as he thinks fit, being persons and bodies having special knowledge and experience of the work of nurses so employed.

LORD CLYDESMUIR moved to leave out paragraph 3 and insert: 3. The members of the Council appointed by the Secretary of State shall include—

  1. (a) two registered nurses employed in services provided under Part III of the National Health Service (Scotland) Act, 1947, appointed by him after consultation with such persons and bodies as he thinks fit, being persons and bodies having special knowledge and experience of the work of nurses so employed;
  2. (b) registered medical practitioners, appointed by him after consultation with such organisations representative of the medical profession as he thinks fit;
  3. (c) persons with experience in hospital management, appointed by him after consultation with such persons and bodies having experience in hospital management as he thinks fit; and
  4. (d) persons with experience in local government, appointed by him after consultation with such local health authorities, or such organisations representative of local health authorities, as he thinks fit."

The noble Lord said: This Amendment is, I think, the only one of substance on the Marshalled List, and as it is the result of an agreement between the noble Lord and myself, I do not anticipate any difficulty in its acceptance. I will not weary your Lordships with any lengthy description, but a word or two is necessary. On the Second Reading of the Bill it was pointed out that the composition of the new General Nursing Council appeared to lack specification as to the qualification of the members (eleven, I think, in number) to be appointed by the Secretary of State. I was reminded that in a previous Act of 1919 there had been more precise specification, and I received representations on this subject. I know that the noble Lord has received representations from the local authorities and from the nurses in this regard, so this Amendment seeks to meet that situation—that is, to give more precise direction as to the type of person to be appointed by the Secretary of State to the General Nursing Council.

If your Lordships will look at the paper you will see that subparagraph (a) of the Amendment repeats in essence the existing paragraph 3 of the Bill, and this redraft is necessary to secure that the nurses employed by voluntary bodies in contract with local authorities instead of directly by local authorities will not be debarred from appointment. I think that clearly that is a wise provision. Subparagraph (b) of the Amendment introduces registered medical practitioners and directs that they should be included in the composition of the Council. The third subparagraph names special persons with experience of hospital management. Subparagraph (d) names persons with experience in local government. I think the noble Lord will agree—because, as I say, his Department has been in touch with me—that this will give wise direction and yet not tie the hands of the Secretary of State too closely in making these appointments. I think it will also meet very largely the representations of those bodies which have come before us with proposals for improving the Bill in this respect. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 12, line 31, leave out paragraph 3, and insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Clydesmuir.)

LORD MORRISON

The noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, has given a brief and absolutely accurate description of the Amendment, and in view of the lateness of the hour I think it will suffice if I say—as indeed the noble Lord himself said—that this Amendment has been placed on the Marshalled List after discussions which have taken place between us. We accept it and we believe that it makes a considerable improvement in the Bill.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

This Amendment makes it clear that persons appointed to fill casual vacancies must have the qualifications (if any) which would have been required of them had they been elected or appointed in the ordinary way to the place they are filling on a casual basis. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 13, line 4, at end insert— ("() A person appointed to fill a casual vacancy occurring in the place of an elected member of the Council shall be a person who would be qualified for election to that place if an election were to take place on the date on which he is appointed and a person appointed to fill any other casual vacancy shall, if the place vacant was originally filled by a person required by the foregoing provisions of this Schedule to be a person of a particular class, himself be of that class.")—(Lord Morrison.)

LORD CLYDESMUIR

This Amendment would seem to ensure continuity of representation, and therefore appears to be desirable. We on this side certainly have no objection to it.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Second Schedule [Regional Nurse-Training Committees]:

LORD MORRISON

This Amendment and the next one are both drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 6, leave out ("sub-committees") and insert ("any sub-committee.")—[Lord Morrison.]

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

I beg to move the next Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 13, at end insert ("as the case may be, as may be specified in the order.")—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD POLWARTH moved to add to paragraph 2: Provided that no person shall be qualified to audit the accounts referred to in sub-paragraph (d) of this paragraph unless he is a member of one or more of the following bodies:—

The noble Lord said: This Schedule provides that the Secretary of State may make regulations for the auditing of the accounts of regional nurse-training committees. The object of this Amendment is to ensure that these accounts shall be audited by members of a recognised professional body. I should make it clear that I have an interest in that I am a member of one of these bodies, but my reason for moving this Amendment is merely to ensure that the accounts are audited according to professional standards.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 20, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Polwarth.)

LORD MORRISON

I admit at once that it is usual to insert a provision of this kind into Bills where Ministers are appointing auditors for finds derived from other than Exchequer money, for example, in the Electricity Act and the current Legal Aid Bill; but it is not customary to do so where the funds concerned come entirely from the Exchequer, as is the case with the regional nurse-training committee. These are usually audited by departmental auditors, who have been specially trained inside the Departments and do not always possess outside qualifications. The financial affairs of the committees are very much interwoven with those of the regional hospital boards, where accounts are audited by departmental officers, and it is most desirable that both sets of accounts should be audited by the same people. Therefore, think the noble Lord will appreciate my difficulty in accepting this Amendment.

LORD POLWARTH

I thank the noble Lord for his reply. I think it is true to say that in Scotland we have not the same system of district auditors as in England, and I am not entirely happy that this audit should be carried out by an official inside the Department. I think it is also true to say that the monies expended by these committees are furnished by the General Nursing Council, whose accounts are audited, I believe, by professional audit. At this hour I do not wish to enter into any argument about it and we may possibly discuss it later; at this stage I am prepared to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Third Schedule [The Mental Nurses Committee]:

LORD MORRISON moved, in paragraph 4, after sub-paragraph (1) to insert: () A person shall not be appointed to fill a casual vacancy in the place of any member of the Committee unless he possesses the qualification required by the foregoing provisions of this Schedule for election or, as the case may be, appointment under the said provisions to that place.

The noble Lord said: This Amendment makes clear that persons appointed to fill casual vacancies must have the qualifications which would have been required of them had they been elected or appointed in the ordinary way to the place they are filling on a casual basis. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 15, line 41, at end insert the said new sub-paragraph.—[Lord Morrison.]

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Third Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining Schedule agreed to.

House resumed.

Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of July 13), Bill reported, with Amendments; Bill read 3a; Amendments (Privilege) made; Bill passed and sent to the Commons.