COLONIAL NAVAL DEFENCE BILL [H.L.] (Hansard, 25 January 1949)

§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL
My Lords, I beg to move that the report be now received.

LORD TEYNHAM
My Lords, I want to make one or two observations on subsection (6) of Clause 1 of this Bill. Subsection (6) enables a Colony to exercise the powers under the Act, although the approval of His Majesty in Council may not have been given. As the clause is now drawn, I suggest that it is possible to conceive of cases where approval of a scheme on which a Colony had embarked in accordance with the Bill might be withheld, and of course considerable difficulty might arise in those circumstances. I understand that it is usual in practice for a Colony to submit its legislation in draft form, and therefore, so far as I can see, there is no reason why His Majesty's Government should not be in a position to signify their approval or disapproval within a day of the scheme being passed by the Colony concerned. Therefore I can see no reason for the wording of subsection (6). In fact, I suggest that there is no need for the words "approval need not be given before the power is exercised," because under the practice which I have just mentioned in regard to Colonial draft legislation, no delay in approval or disapproval, so far as I can see, should occur, and the words of the clause as drafted might merely put a premium on delay on the part of Whitehall. I suggest that if His Majesty's Government wished to make Colonial legislation under this Bill subject to disallowance only, it would be better to draft the Bill accordingly. Perhaps the noble Earl in charge of the Bill would like to deal with this point, and perhaps he will consider it at a later stage of the Bill.

§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL
My Lords, I will gladly explain to the noble Lord the purport of subsection (6) of Clause 1 of the Bill. I am not quite sure whether he may not have misunderstood its significance. The object of this subsection is to change the procedure laid down in the 1931 Act. Under the existing procedure a Colonial Legislature has to pass two Bills to get the powers it requires to organise an efficient naval force. Under the new procedure, as it would be if this subsection were 265 approved and incorporated in the Bill, a Colonial Legislature can get all the powers it needs in one Bill.

§ LORD LLEWELLIN
Would the noble Earl tell us what the two Bills are?

§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL
May I illustrate what I mean? The first Bill would authorise the Colonial Legislature to raise a naval force—to build or buy ships to recruit personnel, to equip the ships. The second Bill would be required to enable the Colonial Government to apply disciplinary regulations used in the Royal Navy to its naval force and to make the personnel of the naval force eligible as members of the Royal Naval Reserve, for matters of the kind which affect us. The reason for the procedure of having an Order in Council to approve the type of thing which a Colonial Legislature would have to do in order to follow up the raising of an active force, is because such an enactment would affect us here. For instance, the eligibility of the personnel of a Colonial naval force to be on the Royal Naval Reserve affects us. Therefore, the Bill cannot become operative in the ordinary way without sanction by Order in Council here. The object of this little subsection is merely to enable sanction to be given after the Bill has been passed in the Colonial Legislature instead of before.
Up till now a great deal of official time, energy and ingenuity has been wasted on account of this particular procedure, which has made it necessary to pass two Bills before any Colony could have a small naval force. The new procedure will enable powers to be given in one Bill and the sanction will be made retrospective by Order in Council here. I can assure the noble Lord that sanction will not be withheld unless there is some very strong ground for doing so. I think one can assume that a Colony will not in any of its measures for raising a naval force, do anything as a general rule that would attract strong objection from the Government here.

§ LORD LLEWELLIN
My Lords, we are certainly obliged to the noble Earl, 266 because this is not an easy clause to understand. In spite of what he has said, however, are the right words "before the power is exercised"? The noble Earl told us that something may affect us—for instance, that they would not become members of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve without our prior consent. Surely, "notwithstanding anything in the principal Act that approval need not be given before the power is exercised" are not the right words. Is not the purport of the noble Earl's speech that the legislation can be passed first and the authority be given afterwards, but not before the power is exercised? The noble Earl realises the distinction there?

§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL
I will gladly look into that point; it is a drafting matter. But I think the noble Lord will agree that it is the legislation which gives the power, and the power is in fact set out in Section 2 of the 1931 Act. It is those powers with which we are dealing. I will gladly look at the point and see if I can get a better drafting of the words.

§ LORD LLEWELLIN
I thought it was the power under the Act that they were passing. But perhaps the noble Earl will look into the matter.

§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL
This refers to the 1931 Act, which lays down in Section 2 the power which a Colonial Legislature may exercise, subject to sanction by Order in Council; and of course that is an Act that is already operative.

§ LORD LLEWELLIN
If the clause were to read "before the power of the 1931 Act is exercised," I think we should all have understood it. But perhaps before the Report stage the noble Earl will see whether there are any other words which can be inserted.

§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL
There will not be any separate Report stage, but I will gladly look into it before Third Reading.