HL Deb 06 December 1949 vol 165 cc1224-42

3.49 p.m.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Pakenham.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair.]

On Question, That the Title of the Bill be postponed:

LORD MANCROFT

I have certain objections to the Long Title of the Bill, but I understand that I shall not be in Order in discussing them now. I give formal notice of my objection and will reserve my remarks until a later and more appropriate stage.

Clause 1:

Establishment of territorial army associations for two 'or more counties

(2) The provision to be made under paragraph (c) of subsection (3) of section one of the Act of 1907 for constituting the lieutenant of the county, or failing him such other person as the Army Council may think fit, president of an association shall be, in relation to an association established for two or more counties, provision for constituting president of the association the lieutenant of such one of those counties as the Army Council may from time to time think fit, or, failing any of those lieutenants, such other person as the Army Council may think fit.

(4) Subsection (3) of the said section thirty-nine (which makes special provision as respects the Lord Mayor of the City of London) shall have effect as if it provided, in relation to an association of that City and one or more other counties jointly, that the said Lord Mayor shall ex officio be either president or a member of the association.

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN moved to add to subsection (2): and for constituting as vice-president of the association the lieutenants of the remaining counties for which the association is established. The noble Viscount said: Perhaps it may be convenient if I speak now on the Amendment standing in the name of my noble friend and myself and on the next two, which stand in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, because all three are concerned with the same point. I have always imagined that under the plan framed by Lord Haldane in 1908 for the constitution of Territorial Force associations, one of the key points was that the lord lieutenant of each county should be the head of each association. In the Bill now before us there are provisions, I think, for amalgamating associations of the small counties in such a way that there will be only one joint association and, therefore, only one president. I feel, and I believe that noble Lords opposite agree, that it would be deplorable if in making these arrangements we allowed the lieutenants of the other counties of the group to drop out altogether. It was for this reason—that is to say, to associate the lords lieutenant of all the counties in some way or other with the work of the association—that I put down the Amendment which stands in my name. The noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, has put down two Amendments which meet my point, and I believe they are considerably superior from the drafting point of view. They also cover special cases like the City of London. For that reason, I propose formally to move my Amendment but, if the noble Lord will tell me that he is going to move his next two Amendments, then in due course I shall be glad to withdraw mine and accept his. I beg formally to move the first Amendment standing in my name on the Marshalled List.

Amendment moved.— Page 2, line 3, at end insert the said words. —(Viscount Bridgeman.)

THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD PAKENHAM)

I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, for the co-operative attitude which he has shown in the various discussions. We on our side have tried to be equally co-operative. I think that what I am proposing to move on this clause and on other clauses has been broadly agreed by the noble Viscount, subject to any views that he may express this afternoon. In fact, we have tried to work this matter out together. I should like to take together the two Amendments to Clause 1 that stand in my name. The object of the first, as the noble Viscount has foreshadowed, is to ensure that where an association is established for two or more counties and a president of the joint association has been appointed, the lord lieutenant or lords lieutenant who are not appointed president will be offered appointments as vice-president. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State gave an undertaking in another place to the effect that an Amendment of this kind would be introduced. That undertaking is now being honoured by the introduction of this Amendment.

If I may, by leave of the Committee, and in particular of the noble Viscount opposite, I will go on to my second Amendment. As I have said, this is really consequential and provides that the Lord Mayor of the City of London shall be similarly eligible for appointment as president or vice-president in any combined association for the City of London and one or more other counties. In short, this Amendment in terms of the Bill brings the position of the Lord Mayor of London into line with that of the lords lieutenant. I think I can fairly say, therefor, that the object of this Amendment is one suggested and approved by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman. I hope he will feel that he can withdraw his Amendment and accept the two Amendments standing in my name on the Marshalled List.

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN

I am much obliged for the clear statement given by the noble Lord. I should like to reciprocate what he has said about the conversations we have had, and to say how grateful we are to him and to his advisers. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD PAKENHAM

I beg to move the first Amendment standing in my name on the Marshalled List.

Amendment moved—

Page 2, line 3, at end insert— ("() The scheme under section one of the Act of 1907 for an association established for two or more counties shall provide for constituting the lieutenant of any of those counties a vice-president of the association in any case where he is not president of the association and is willing to serve as vicepresident.").—(Lord Pakenham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PAKENHAM

I beg to move the second Amendment standing in my name.

Amendment moved—

Page 2, line 12, leave out subsection (4) and insert— ("() As respects an association established for the City of London and one or more other, counties, the Act of 1907 and the foregoing provisions of this section shall have effect subject to the following provisions, that is to say,—

  1. (a) subsections (2) and (3) of this section shall apply as if the Lord Mayor of the City of London were the lieutenant of a county, and
  2. (b) subsection (3) of section thirty-nine of the Act of 1907 (which provides that the Lord Mayor shall ex officio be president of the association of the City of London) shall not apply.")—(Lord Pakenham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2:

Constitution of associations

(2) Any such scheme shall provide for the appointment as members of the association of such number of members or former members of His Majesty's military forces as may be specified in the scheme, not being less than one half of the whole number of the association; and paragraph (d) of the said subsection (3) (which provides that not less than half of the whole number of the association shall be officers representative of all arms and branches of the territorial army raised within the county) is hereby repealed.

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN moved, in subsection (2) to leave out "military" and to insert "Naval, Army or Air." The noble Viscount said: I come now to the Amendment to Clause 2 which stands in my name and that of my noble friend, Lord Mancroft. The object of this Amendment, and, indeed, partly the object of the following Amendment, is that now that the three Services are all, to varying extents, partners in the work of the Territorial associations, it seems desirable that the three Service Departments should have proper rights in respect of those associations, and that those associations, for their part, should have proper duties in respect of the three Service Departments. In subsection (2) of this clause we find that the scheme shall provide for the appointment as members of the association of such number of members or former members of His Majesty's military forces.… The scheme of which we are talking is what is known in Territorial Army circles as the "model" scheme—that is to say, a scheme which was produced by the War Office (and now I suppose it will be produced by the Ministry of Defence) which is set as a pattern for each separate scheme which each association adopts. In the old days, that scheme dealt only with the Territorial Army and it had to provide for Service representation only as regards military men. When this Bill was being discussed in another place, the word "military," as I understand, was defined as referring only to soldiers. Therefore, we arrive at a position where the "model" scheme is supposed to provide for the inclusion of soldiers or ex-soldiers, whereas, as we can see from the remainder of the Bill, it is required to deal with Naval Reserve Forces and people like the Sea Cadet Corps. At the moment, I am not talking about the Reserve Air Forces or the A.T.C., because that is dealt with in Clause 7, where the matter has to be legislated for, I am sorry to say, by Order in Council.

It seems to us that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and if associations are to be required in this Bill to administer reserve naval or marine forces or the sea cadets, then you certainly ought to provide for the inclusion not only of soldiers or ex-soldiers, but of sailors or ex-sailors. For that reason, I beg now to move the Amendment which stands in my name. It may be that the word "Air" should not have been left in, but it seems to me that, even if we accept the position that the Air Force is legislated for in Clause 7, we still want the word "Naval" here to make quite sure that in appropriate cases—that is to say, where an association is administering Reserve Naval Forces—there shall be provisions in the scheme for that association to take naval members to the extent that is considered necessary by the Admiralty. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 24, leave out ("military") and insert ("Naval, Army or Air").—(Viscount Bridgeman.)

THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (VISCOUNT HALL)

The noble Viscount has put his Amendment quite clearly, but I am afraid it gives rise to some difficulty. I am sure it is not intended by the noble Viscount that naval representatives should sit upon every Territorial association.

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN

I said not.

VISCOUNT HALL

But with the Amendment as drafted the probabilities are that it would work in that way. The position is that the naval reserves are not organised on a territorial basis; they are organised on a national basis and are administered nationally. So it will be seen that some difficulties will arise—not that those difficulties have not been foreseen. I am grateful to the noble Viscount for the consideration which he has shown to the Royal Navy in this respect. I would like to point out, however, that the administration of naval reserves is the responsibility of the Admiralty and will remain so. The same generally applies to the Royal Marine Forces Volunteer Reserve, and there is no intention of the Admiralty participating in the formation or administration of the associations. This does not mean, however, that the Admiralty is going to stand aloof and will have nothing to do with the associations. Indeed, we want to use the associations all we can in those areas where we have divisions of the R.N.V.R., and provision is made in paragraph (f) of Section 1 (3) of the 1907 Act for additional members to be co-opted to the associations. Already commanding officers of the twelve R.N.V.R. divisions and the four R.M.F.V.R. centres are invited to attend meetings of the associations of the county in which their units are situated, and in some cases they have been co-opted under the powers to which I have referred.

I can assure the noble Viscount that it is intended to extend this arrangement for co-opting to all units of the R.N.V.R. and the R.M.F.V.R. in order to ensure Admiralty representation as occasion requires. The Admiralty representatives will be in the same position as full members of the associations and will have the usual voting powers. This provision under the 1907 Act, with the provision made in subsection (3) of Clause 2 of the Bill for the representation of members also of the Sea Cadet Corps, I think meets the object which the noble Viscount has in mind, and I hope he will agree that his Amendment is therefore unnecessary. I want to assure the Committee that in the areas where we have these divisions there is a very wide and workable liaison between naval reserves and the Territorial associations.

THE EARL OF LIMERICK

The remarks of the noble Viscount bring me to my feet on one point. As I understand it, from what he has said it would mean that in those associations to which reference has been made, where there is a naval flavour, it is possible to have such a representative. It is within my own experience that it does happen, and in the case I have in mind we have in our association as a full member a representative of the R.N.V.R. Naturally he has rights equal to those of any other member. He therefore participates to that extent in the duties of the association in question. But, as I understand it, those duties are to refer to the other Services and not to the Navy; there are to be no administrative duties relating to the Navy. Therefore I am wondering whether that really carries out the full intention of thorough co-operation between the Services. I recognise the position upon which the noble Viscount has remarked to this extent: that only the other day I had occasion to say that, whatever was the status of the naval member or members, I should always welcome their presence in the association in question, believing as I do that the maximum co-operation between the civil and the military as well as between all the three Services is essential to our wellbeing for the future. From what the noble Viscount has said, I feel that the administrative set-up is not very satisfactory, and I still hold with the opinion which has been voiced by my noble friend, Lord Bridgeman.

VISCOUNT HALL

I would like to know where the noble Earl would lead us. Does he require that naval representatives should sit on every Territorial association, or sit with every Territorial association? If that is so, I would point out that the numbers are so great as to make it impossible. Where there is any naval activity on the reserve side, either R.N.V.R., Sea Cadet or Royal Marine Reserve, there will be fully co-opted members, which is provided for in the scheme which has been agreed to with the Army Council. I thought that would meet the case.

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN

I wish I could feel that the matter was left in a completely satisfactory fashion, but I am bound to say that I agree with my noble friend Lord Limerick. It would be much better if, in counties where there are non-Regular Naval or Marine Forces, the duties of the Associations could be clearly defined and an obligation imposed for the appointment of naval members. But we can come back to this question when the model scheme is produced, because it will be a statutory rule and order and can be discussed in Parliament. Therefore, though I feel that the matter is not left satisfactorily and in such a way as would result in the smoothest possible working, I shall not press my Amendment at this stage. Having heard what the noble Viscount has said, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clause 3:

Powers and duties of associations

3.—(1) In subsection (1) of section two of the Act of 1907 (which makes it the duty of an association to be acquainted with and conform to the plan of the Army Council for the organisation of the territorial army within the area for which the association is constituted) for the reference to the territorial army there shall be substituted a reference to all His Majesty's military forces.

VISCOUNT BR1DGEMAN moved in subsection (1) to leave out "military." The noble Viscount said: This Amendment deals partly with the same point, but I regard it as a matter of much more importance. With the Committee's leave, I would like to explain it for a moment, because it is necessary to refer to the principal Act of 1907. Clause 2 of the principal Act says that it shall be the duty of an association to make itself acquainted with and conform to the plan of the Army Council for the organisation of the Territorial forces within the county; to ascertain the military resources and capabilities of the county, to render advice and assistance to the Army Council and to such officers as they may direct, and so on. This is a duty which was laid on the associations—not a duty which was laid on the Service Departments towards the associations, but a duty laid on the associations towards the Service Departments. It seems to me quite clear that if there is to be any mention in this Bill of Naval Forces—as indeed there is mention in the Bill—then there should be a duty on the associations to do for the Admiralty what they do for the Army Council—that is to say, to note their plan for the organisation of those forces for which they are responsible, or with which they have anything to do, and likewise to advise and assist the Admiralty on those matters.

Since I put down this Amendment, I have had the advantage of certain talks with the noble Viscount opposite, during the course of which I discovered that the Amendment as I drafted it appears, at any rate in the eyes of the Admiralty, to place the Admiralty under obligation to disclose a lot of information which they feel should not be disclosed to the associations or, perhaps, to anyone else. I fully understand that fear, and I certainly had no intention of putting the Admiralty under any obligation to disclose anything they did not want to disclose. Nor did I desire that they should have to disclose to the associations anything which it would not be necessary for them to know in order to carry out their duty of assisting and co-operating with the Admiralty in those counties in which there exist units of non-Regular Naval or Marine Forces (I am excluding the Royal Fleet Reserve) such as the R.N.V.R., the R.M.F.V.R. and the Sea Cadets, and where the assistance of those associations is required. I say that because I do not intend to press my Amendment to-day. I intend on Report stage to substitute an Amendment which expresses more clearly what I have in mind and which will not be open to the objection to which I now see that my present objection is open. I have thought it best to move this Amendment so that we may see now whether or not the principle of such an Amendment could be accepted. In that event, our business will be very short on the Report stage. As I say, I feel that this Amendment is far more important than the last one, and if this Bill, which is at present in a rather messy state, is to achieve its purpose properly, the associations must, by law, have the same duties, or approximately the same duties mutatis mutandis, to the other two Service Departments, as they have now to the War Office. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 12, leave out ("military").—(Viscount Bridgman.)

VISCOUNT HALL

I want to assure the noble Viscount that I am anxious to be as helpful as I possibly can in dealing with these matters. I want the closest possible association between the Naval Forces and the Territorial associations in those areas where both are working. I should be dad to see a draft of the Amendment which the noble Viscount proposes, and if such a course is agreeable to the noble Viscount opposite, I am prepared to discuss the whole matter with him in order to see whether we can find words which will meet his case and carry out the desires of both the noble Viscount and the Admiralty.

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN

I am grateful to the noble Viscount for having said what he has just said. I will gladly discuss with him a form of words for my later Amendment. I feel confident that after discussion we shall reach a satisfactory solution on lines which are mutually agreeable to us. I bee leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On Question, Whether Clause 3 shall stand part of the Bill?

LORD MANCROFT

Before parting with this clause I would like to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that throughout this clause and indeed throughout the Bill the names of the Territorial Army, the Royal Navy, the Royal Marines and the Royal Auxiliary Air Force are all printed in small letters. I should like to know why there has been this undesirable departure from well-established precedent. There is no reason, so far as I can see, why the Army Cadet Force, the Combined Cadet Force and the Sea Cadet Corps should, quite rightly, of course, be printed with capitals and the others not. If the Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports is, also most properly, printed in capitals in the Bill, why not the Royal Navy? Moreover, there is no precedent that I can find in the two Acts upon which this Bill is based—The Naval Forces Act of 1903 and the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act of 1907. They give the Royal Navy and the Territorial Force capital letters. Why has there been this extraordinary departure now? I have carried out a few researches and the only other examples I can find in current use of the abandonment of the capital letter are in the more exotic poems of the late Mr. Humbert Wolfe and on some of the billheads of certain suburban milliners. This departure from precedent really is not good enough. I suggest to the noble Lord that he should abandon yet another attack on capital and should in the next edition of the Bill return to the good old fashioned conservative way of printing.

LORD PAKENHAM

In this one matter I do not stand forth as any kind of enemy of capital. I observe that the noble Lord in one sense is in favour of Labour, for at any rate he has been at great labour to look into the history of this. Without having myself conducted such prolonged researches. I have had time to look at the Act of 1907 and I see that it refers in Section 1 A (3) (d) to the appointment of such number of officers representative of all arms and branches of the territorial army and auxiliary air force. In the Act of 1907 there are no capitals in that connection. Perhaps this is a matter which we can discuss afterwards. As I say, I have not conducted such extensive researches as the noble Lord appears to have done, but I have looked at the Act of 1907 and perhaps the noble Lord will be good enough to set what I have found against his own results. The noble Lord has referred to the Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports. Who wants to take away his capitals? They are almost the only thing he has got. I should certainly be against depriving him of them. In the Act there are references in capitals to the Cadet Forces. It seems to me rather a graceful compliment, which we in this place should be the last people to try to withdraw, that references to the Army Cadet Force and the Combined Cadet Force and the Sea Cadet Corps all have their capitals. I feel it gives a rather pleasant emphasis to the importance which attaches to them. If we turn to the other forces referred to in the Bill before us, we sec that there are no capitals. Of course I speak subject to correction by the noble Lord, Lord Man-croft. I do not think he will find that capitals were used where other forces are referred to. It may well be that the whole matter requires a little more elucidation, and I shall be ready to say more at a later stage. Perhaps I have said enough to show the noble Lord that this is not just a slip. It is, in fact, in line with the general practice throughout the Bill. I am sure it is in line with the general practice of the Act of 1907. As I have indicated, I am ready to say more about this at a later stage if required.

Clause 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 agreed to.

Clause 5 [Conditions of service]:

LORD PAKENHAM

This Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 13, leave out ("within the meaning") and insert ("in accordance with the provisions").—(Lord Pakenham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6 agreed to.

Clause 7:

Application of enactments to royal auxiliary air force

7.—(1) The power of His Majesty under section six of the Air Force (Constitution) Act, 1917, to apply by Order in Council to the royal auxiliary air force or to the officers and men of that force any of the enactments relating to the territorial army or to the officers and men of that army shall be extended in accordance with the following provisions of this section.

(3) The said power of His Majesty, as extended by the last foregoing subsection, shall include power to apply any of the enactments referred to in the last foregoing subsection with such modifications as may be necessary—

LORD PAKENHAM moved, in subsection (3) after paragraph (b) to insert: () to provide for any joint association that of the chairman and vice-chairman or vice-chairmen at least one shall be a military member of the association and at least one shall be an air force member of the association;

The noble Lord said: With the permission of the Committee I would like to speak to the three Amendments standing in my name on the clause under discussion. I hope that the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, who has put down his own Amendment, will feel that what I say to some extent meets his suggestions. This is a case where we have worked fruitfully together and I should explain that the change of wording has been adopted after discussions with the noble Viscount. The object is to avoid any possibility of specially qualified non-military persons, mentioned in paragraph (c), being the only persons considered in any appointment to the offices of chairman and vice-chairman. The words should make it plain that any such person is in no way to be given this preference, and that in this respect he is to be on the same legal footing as any other member of the association in the election of chairman and vice-chairman. It was laid down in the Act of 1907 that constitutions of joint associations should provide for the election of a chairman and vice-chairman. The intention of Clause 7 (3) in the Bill is to amend the 1907 Act so as to enable schemes to provide for two vice-chairmen where necessary, and to provide that both Services shall be represented in these offices. It was felt by a number of speakers, in another place, and in your Lordships' House, that rather than rely on the wording of the scheme, the Bill now before the House should provide that this result should be achieved. The Government are prepared to meet the views so expressed. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 31, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Pakenham.)

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN

Once again, we are grateful to the noble Lord for the way in which he has met our views on this point. As the noble Lord has said, the difference between the Amendment originally put down and the present Amendments was that the original Amendment specifically invited the appointment of a chairman and vice-chairman who were civilians. That would not have been at all a good thing because, as many of your Lordships know, the chairman and vice-chairman are not only the kingpins of the association but also the kingpins of the business and finance committees; and it is therefore necessary that they should have a knowledge of Service procedure. Between them they will now have a knowledge both of Army and Air Force procedure, and will be able to make as sure as they can that the associations are serving the interests of the Army and Air Force to the best of their ability. It would be unusual for a civilian to be the best person to carry out those tasks. We felt that the original wording left something to be desired; we think the present wording puts the matter in a much more satisfactory form, and I believe that my noble friends behind me agree. Therefore, we shall support this Amendment and the two following Amendments, and as these meet all the points we have sought to raise by the Amendment in my name, I shall not move that Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PAKENHAM

In formally moving this Amendment I should like to thank the noble Viscount for not moving the Amendment standing in his name. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 33, leave out from ("associations") to ("interest") in line 39 and insert a that a person may, notwithstanding his not being a member or former member of His Majesty's air forces, be appointed as an air force member of any such association if specially qualified by his").—(Lord Pakenham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PAKENHAM

This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 8, line 46, at end insert— ("In this subsection the expressions 'military member' and 'air force member' mean respectively a member for whose appointment provision is made by subsection (2) of section two of this Act and by that subsection as applied under the said power of His Majesty.")—(Lord Pakenham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

4.25 p.m.

On Question, Whether Clause 7, as amended, stand part of the Bill?

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN

We now come to a point of which I have given notice to the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, concerning the position of the Air Ministry in respect of this Bill. On Second Reading I referred to the statement which Lord Pakenham made, that the reason for not bringing the Air Force into the Bill was the difficulty of consolidation of the Orders in Council which have been issued at intervals between 1917 and the present time. I would ask the noble Lord how many such Orders in Council have actually been issued, so that we may form an idea of the character of the difficulties in trying to consolidate the Bill. On Second Reading I also asked him this question, if I may be permitted to use the words I used then: Do the Air Ministry mean to continue the system of administering the Auxiliary Ai-Force by Territorial associations, or do they mean to carry it out in some other way? I added that I thought it would be fair to the associations that they should be told what was wanted. I do not think that on Second Reading the noble Lord had a proper opportunity of consulting his right honourable friend; therefore, I gave him notice that I would ask that question again. I attach a certain amount of importance to this matter, although perhaps it is a minor point, because I feel it is not in the interests of the associations and certainly not in the interests of the Auxiliary Air Force and of the air training units that this matter should go on any longer without being clarified, and I hope that the noble Lord will be able to give us some information this afternoon.

LORD PAKENHAM

I would refer first to the Orders in Council. Here again I thank the noble Viscount for having given me advance notice of the points he was going to raise. There are six Orders in Council—namely, the Air Force Reserve (Application of Enactments) (No. 1) Order, 1918 the Air Force Reserve Order, 1934; the Auxiliary Air Force Orders of 1924 and 1927; the Auxiliary Air Force (Application of Enactments) Order, 1925; and lastly, the Air Force Reserve (Pilots and Observers) Order, 1934. The noble Viscount also asked me a question about the Royal Auxiliary Air Force. Having had time to consult my right honourable friend, I can assure him that the Air Minister means to continue the present system of administering the Royal Auxiliary Air Force. Does that answer the noble Viscount's point?

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN

Yes; but could the noble Lord, also say what is proposed in regard to the Air Training Corps?

LORD PAKENHAM

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Air authorises me to give an assurance in the following terms. He assures me he is reviewing the proposal to transfer the administration of the Air Training Corps units to the associations, in view, among other factors, of the financial commitments the transfer involves. He also desires me to say that a decision will be reached in the course of the next six months. It is intended that the associations shall be kept in close touch with this review. I believe the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, is in the closest touch with my right honourable friend on the whole subject.

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN

I thank the noble Lord for his statement, but I am bound to say that while we are glad of the information he has just given, it has put rather a curious complexion on the whole affair, because, whether intentionally or not, the fact that no reason was given against consolidation, other than the difficulties of the Orders in Council, tended to divert attention from the fact that the Air Ministry had not in fact made up their mind on the subject of the Air Training Corps. Without using too violent language on a matter of this sort, I may say that it seems a most deplorable state of affairs that, after three years of coming and going, three years in which to consider it and three years during which the Territorial associations have been invited to use their good offices to promote the affairs of the Air Training Corps, the Air Ministry have not been able to make up their mind. There have been three sets of Estimates, and three Budgets. As I say, it is a most deplorable state of affairs.

Now we know. The question is: Where do we go from here? I hope that any publicity which has been given to the position as a result of to-day's Committee will have a good effect, and not the reverse, on the affairs of the Royal Auxiliary Air Force and the Air Training Corps. I would like to say how much I hope that the decision of the Air Ministry will be made quickly. There is no earthly reason to take six months over it. If reference is being made to the Estimates, I am sure the matter can be dealt with in a great deal less time. Whatever the decision, I want to express the hope that in the interests of the A.T.C. they will decide to adhere to their original plan of allowing the organisations to help them to administer it.

LORD PAKENHAM

I am sorry my right honourable friend is not here himself, because I am sure he would resist and even resent—though it was in very good part—the suggestion that this represents a deplorable state of affairs. I cannot agree with that for a moment. I would like to take this opportunity to throw this extra light on the whole subject. The matter was complicated, as the noble Viscount will agree, by the setting up of a Working Party, which reported towards the end of 1948. The report of the Working Party, as the noble Viscount, the noble Earl and others are well aware, was communicated to those associations which it would affect. Therefore there is no question of the matter having been pigeon-holed, of there having been a blocking, or any failure of that kind; it has all been moving forward, if not as fast as noble Lords wished. The recommendations of the Working Party, however, have had to be reviewed in connection with the general review of Government expenditure. Presumably that has prevented the speed of advance reaching the point that would otherwise have been attained.

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN

May I interrupt the noble Lord for a moment? I think the noble Lord will find that the Second Reading of this Bill in another place took place before the need arose for the review of Government expenditure to which he has referred.

LORD PAKENHAM

I would not like to pronounce on that matter without giving further thought and study to it. But even if that is true, the fact remains that at the present moment the recommendations must be reviewed in this light, and I am trying to bring the noble Viscount up to date without necessarily running over the past. I can only assure the noble Viscount that the matter is being attended to now, and if to-day's discussion helps that process we shall all agree that it has been useful. I know the noble Viscount did not suggest this, but an unkind person could have put this construction on his words. He did not suggest that the whole argument about the difficulty of drafting was a kind of façade, but he said that it did, in fact, cover up a failure on the part of the Air Ministry to make up their mind.

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN

Yes.

LORD PAKENHAM

I can assure the noble Viscount that this difficulty in the drafting is perfectly genuine. I can assure him that my right honourable friend was anxious and, so far as I know, is still anxious, that the consolidation shall go forward. There is this quite genuine difficulty about drafting. If it did have what is regarded by noble Lords opposite as an unfortunate effect in concealing something, then that effect has been undone by the discussion we have just had. If I may say so, I do not think my right honourable friend is someone who would willingly cover up anything. If he were, he would be unlikely to believe that such a course would succeed with people like the noble Viscount and the noble Earl. Therefore I think on moral and technical grounds we can acquit him of any such purpose. Having said that, and having between us ventilated the whole subject, I hope the clause will now be accepted as part of the Bill.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 8 and 9 agreed to.

Clause 10 [Liability of naval and marine reserves to be called into actual service]:

LORD PAKENHAM

I beg to move this consequential Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 11, Line 8, leave out from ("not") to ("for") in line 9 and insert ("without his consent in writing be liable to serve in pursuance of this subsection").—(Lord Pakenham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Schedules agreed to.

House resumed.