HL Deb 06 May 1948 vol 155 cc681-5

4.6 p.m.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 to 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 [Advisory Committee]:

On Question, Whether Clause 6 shall stand part of the Bill?

LORD CHERWELL

I would like to ask the noble Lord in charge of the Bill whether he can give any assurance that the representatives of industry will be consulted about the constitution of the advisory committee. The committee will have enormous powers; the whole Rill may well depend upon the constitution of the committee being satisfactory and in many respects their activities will impinge upon industry. I hope the noble Lord can give us some assurance that both sides of industry will be consulted about the committee's constitution or, indeed, will be represented on it.

LORD HENDERSON

The noble Lord raised this point on Second Reading. Your Lordships will remember that I said that before the advisory committee are appointed there will be consultation with certain scientific and other organisations, a number of which I cited by name. I then indicated that I was impressed by the point which the noble Lord raised, and that I would consult the Ministers about it. I added that it was the intention of the Ministers to have a balanced representation of the various industries concerned. I am glad to be able to give the noble Lord the further assurance that the Ministers concerned will also consult appropriate organisations representing the non-technical interests—what the noble Lord calls the industrial users—affected: for example, the British Employers Confederation and the Trades Union Congress. I hope that that assurance will satisfy my noble friend.

LORD CHERWELL

I am grateful for that answer.

Clause 6 agreed to.

Clause 7:

Power of entry and inspection.

(2) If it is shown to the satisfaction of a justice of the peace on sworn information in writing by a person authorised as aforesaid—

  1. (a) That the exercise of the right conferred by the preceding subsection has been refused or, in the case of premises wholly or mainly used for residential purposes, that a request for admission has been refused, or that the case is one of urgency or that an application or request for admission would defeat the object of the entry; and
    2. 683
  2. (b) that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence under any provision of this Act (except section two) has been or is being committed in or in connection with the premises, vehicle, vessel or aircraft in question;
the justice may by warrant under his hand authorise that person to enter and search any premises, vehicle, vessel or aircraft, if need be by force.

LORD HENDERSON moved, in subsection (2) after "person" where that word occurs last, to insert: and any other person named in the warrant and any constable.

The noble Lord said: With the permission of the Committee I will speak on this and the next Amendment together. Clause 7 (1) empowers any person authorised by the appropriate Minister to enter premises, and so on, in order to ascertain whether an offence has been or is being committed under the Bill (excluding subsection (2)) and to take with him "such other persons as may be necessary." That is provided for in subsection (3). In certain circumstances, which are set out in Clause 7 (2), the authorised person has to be armed with a Justice's warrant. The effect of these two Amendments is, first, to give the occupier greater protection by requiring that any other persons whom the authorised person may take with him must be named in the warrant; and, secondly, to provide specifically that the authorised person may take a constable with him, if so authorised by the warrant. Where the authorised person is empowered, under subsection (1), to enter without a warrant, any other persons may receive a similar authorisation from the appropriate Minister. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 3, at end insert "and any other person named in the warrant and any constable."—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HENDERSON

I beg to move the next Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 6, leave out subsection (3).—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 [Offences and penalties]:

LORD CHERWELL moved, after sub-section (1) to insert as a new subsection:

"(2) Any person guilty of an offence under subsection (6) of the last preceding section shall—

  1. (a) on summary conviction, be liable to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment; or
  2. (b) on conviction on indictment, be liable to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to both such fine and such imprisonment."

The noble Lord said: As I mentioned on Second Reading, there are certain circumstances in which it may, and in my opinion would, be desirable to increase the penalties for offences under this Bill. In general, the offences would be accidents and mistakes, and only if they were persisted in would they be offences meriting imprisonment or some similar serious punishment. There is, however, one particular possibility which ought to be covered—namely, that of people entering premises in order to ascertain whether the regulations are being complied with, discovering something about processes of manufacture or methods of production, and disclosing them. That would obviously be a grave offence, and it does not seem sufficient that people guilty of such an offence should be able to escape with a fine of £100 on a first offence. It might be worth a great deal more than that to discover some secret process, and to disclose its nature. The effect of this Amendment is to make the penalties very much more severe for this particular offence, so that in such a case a man can be imprisoned on the first offence, and will not, like a dog, have a first free bite. I hope that this Amendment will be accepted by the Government. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 27, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Cherwell).

LORD HENDERSON

It may be remembered that on Second Reading the noble Lord made this point about the disclosure of special processes or trade secrets. I stated in my remarks at the end of the debate that I had been impressed by the point made, and promised that I would take it to the Minister for reconsideration. That reconsideration has been given to the matter, and I am happy to tell the noble Lord that I can accept his Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

House resumed.

Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution), Amendments reported. Bill read 3ª; an Amendment (Privilege) made: Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.