Lords Sitting of 24 March 1948

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

VETERINARY SURGEONS BILL. [H.L.]
2.35 p.m.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Huntingdon, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to make further provision for the teaching of veterinary surgery and for restricting the practice thereof by unqualified persons; to alter the constitution of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and of the Council of that College and otherwise to amend the law relating to veterinary surgeons; to exempt persons practising veterinary surgery from service on juries; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid; and to move that the Bill be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Ammon.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

SOUTH SUBURBAN GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
PALESTINE BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a; and to be printed.

NAVAL PERSONNEL.
EARL BEATTY: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The question was as follows:
[To ask His Majesty's Government (a) the number of officers and ratings in the Royal Navy in 1934 and in 1948;
(b) the numbers in the Secretary's Department at the Admiralty in 1934 and in 1948.]
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (VISCOUNT HALL): My Lords, the strength of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines in March, 1934, was 90,000. The corresponding figure for 1948, which includes the Women's Royal Naval Reserve, is 147,000. The number of staff in the Secretary's Department at the Admiralty, including the Common Services, was 1,320 in 1934, and at the present time is 5,500. The figures quoted are approximate.
EARL BEATTY: I thank the First Lord for his answer, but, arising from his reply, may I say that, from a hasty calculation it appears that whereas officers and men in uniform have increased in number by about 50 per cent., persons employed in the Department have increased in number by 250 per cent. Does not the First Lord think this a glaring instance in which it might be well to accelerate a reduction in personnel, for the benefit of the Navy as a whole?
VISCOUNT HALL: I want to assure the noble Earl that we are accelerating reduction as last as we possibly can. It must be recognised that the noble Earl has selected for his purpose a period when the Navy was at its lowest numbers, both on the serving side and on the administrative side. At the conclusion of the war and since, a considerable amount of work has been entailed in relation to the run-down of men, and also in connection with contracts and terminals of all kinds. We certainly agree that the situation needs to be watched, and we are endeavouring to bring about a reduction as quickly as possible.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
URBAN DISTRICT OF CHERTSEY ORDER.
RURAL DISTRICT OF LYDNEY ORDER.
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, I beg to move that these Orders be approved.
Moved, That the Orders made under the Act by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending Section one of the Act to the said areas, be approved.—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

NATIONAL SAVINGS.
2.39 p.m.
LORD INMAN LORD INMAN had the following Notice on the Order Paper: To move to resolve, That in the interests of national economic restoration it is incumbent upon all sections of the community, without distinctions of Party, to support the National Savings Movement. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am submitting this Motion on national savings in the presence of two great leaders of the movement. My noble friend, Lord Mackintosh of Halifax, is, as your Lordships know, the present Chairman, and his energetic leadership and great business ability have been invaluable to the cause of savings during the last difficult years. My noble friend, Lord Kindersley, is the virtual father of the movement. I understand that he was present at its birth in 1916, and for thirty years it has benefited greatly from his passionate belief in all that the movement stands for and from his great financial knowledge and experience. In the presence of these two great authorities, it may be wondered why I am moving this resolution. This is the reason. I have, for a long time, taken close interest in the work of the Savings Movement. I have spoken at various meetings throughout the country. I have come to know personally many workers, from the leaders down to the rank and file, and I believe, therefore, that I can pay an independent tribute to their keenness and their enthusiasm. I also know some of the difficulties confronting them to-day.
It is a significant fact that during the war years a Motion of this kind was never thought to be necessary. The Savings Movement was an integral part of our war effort, and was accepted as such by the whole nation. With the coming of peace—or would it be better to say; with the ending of the war—the appeal to save lost much of its urgency. The immediate danger was over, and there was a widespread feeling that our past savings and sacrifices should be used to make life easier and more pleasant; that after the almost intolerable strain and stress there should be a "let-up," some relief from the war-time hardships and, for the housewives in particular, a chance to buy those goods which had been so long denied to them. In the face of such a situation—an understandable situation, let it be acknowledged—it became a formidable
1072
task to curb the desire to spend and to make saving attractive: in other words, to make a savings certificate or a deposit in a bank a substitute for the goods the people needed and the legitimate pleasures to which they were entitled.
How did the National Savings Movement meet that situation? Many noble Lords are familiar with the arguments which have been used. It has been emphasised that savings are one of the great bulwarks against inflation; that if uncontrolled inflation should get the better of us it would not matter one jot or tittle what schemes we made for social security or a happier future—they would all be swept away. It has been said that we are all in this together; that our common welfare and prosperity is at stake, and that should this great national effort fail, then the sacrifices we made will have been in vain and the victory we won at such a price will be in jeopardy. I think there is no doubt about the vital need for a high level of national savings today; that has been made abundantly clear in the recent Economic Survey. If more inflation is to be avoided, and if at the same time we are to reach the targets for exports and for national recovery, it is estimated that the sum of £450,000,000 will be required in 1948 from personal savings. I submit that such a task can be achieved only by the most persistent efforts and loyal co-operation of the whole community.
This brings me to the main purpose underlying my Motion to-day. It is because savings are linked with the struggle for economic recovery and national survival that they run the risk of becoming embroiled in the political variances which rage round so many of these economic affairs. I need not remind your Lordships that the National Savings Movement has always stood right outside the political arena. It has counted its supporters amongst all Parties; it has served loyally under different forms of Government. It must not now be allowed to break into the cockpit of Party politics. I do not want to be misunderstood. I know full well (I am sure the leaders of the National Savings Committee would confirm what I say) that responsible leaders of all Parties, and of both sides in industry, continue to give full support to the savings appeal. The Executive of the Labour Party, just before the last annual conference, made as one of the

1073
principal points in their programme the appeal to support the National Savings Campaign to the full. Only a fortnight ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer at a meeting at the Albert Hall declared:
"The Savings Movement, a non-Party, non-political organisation, devoting itself always to the cause of national salvation and recovery, has given splendid service to the State for many years."
The Conservative Industrial Charter says quite emphatically:
"We wish to see the National Savings Movement continue."
Again, only within the last two or three weeks, to quote one of many expressions which could be quoted, Mr. Eden said this:
"Whatever the merits or demerits of any particular Government, the need for national savings remains."
The Liberal Party, too, in its report on the economic crisis, stressed the importance of savings, and went on to say:
"We would prefer for the present to rely on the voluntary Savings Movement."
Yet, in spite of these declarations from responsible leaders, from time to time, there come from different parts of the country reports of the weakening and the hampering of the local savings organisation by political dissension. Before attending a meeting at which I was to speak, I myself received a warning that the chairman intended to make what he called a "fighting attack" on the Government's financial record. He was, of course, entitled to his opinion; but I object strongly to the exploitation of the National Savings Movement for a purpose of that kind.
The story does not end there. Apart from the cases where political dissension is openly introduced, there are many others where political feeling causes the withdrawal of support which, if given, would greatly benefit the Savings Movement. I suggest that it would be a profound mistake if the leaders of Opposition Parties were to withdraw their support from a great national cause because a particular form of Government is in power. It would be a logical consequence for that Government, when they in turn became the Opposition, to take a similar course. Such conduct would be neither democratic nor British. Moreover, it would eventually spell the end of the National Savings Movement, and I say that we
1074
cannot afford to lose an organisation of that character which ministers so well to the needs of our community.
If I have one criticism to offer of the working of the movement, it is that the real value of this movement is not always understood. I know there are people who regard it as a kind of financial clearing house, the object of which is merely to pay for the war and its aftermath. There is a tendency to overlook its wider and its more abiding purpose. I need not remind your Lordships that this movement has done, and is doing, magnificent work in inculcating prudence and thrift, in fostering the sense of personal responsibility and in maintaining our faith in ourselves and in the future of our country. Indeed, I look upon the Savings Movement as the latest phase in the evolution of voluntary thrift, the history of which goes back to the early years of the last century when the Trustee Savings Banks were formed. Then in 1861, came the Post Office Savings Bank, which enabled men and women to deposit their modest contributions into its safe and interest-earning custody. I have to this day a Post Office Bank book showing that as a boy I invested regularly, week by week, the sum of sixpence. That was a big amount for me in those days. It is interesting to note that there are withdrawals as well as entries in that book, and I notice that they took place with constant regularity on November 5 and about Christmas Day.
As I mentioned a moment ago, in 1916 came the National Savings Movement—about which the noble Lord, Lord Kindersley, will no doubt tell us later on—which has built itself up into a nationwide organisation, permeating every aspect of life. As your Lordships know, there are savings groups everywhere: in cities, towns and hamlets, in industry and in schools, and in various social and religious organisations. Hundreds of thousands of men and women find in this movement satisfying opportunities for voluntary public work, and the accumulated amount standing to the credit of savers must indeed be colossal. I wonder if the noble Lord, Lord Mackintosh, can give us the exact amount, because I think it would be interesting and perhaps astonishing.
I venture, therefore, to make an appeal which does not come strictly within the

1075
terms of this Resolution. Is it not possible for some united action to be taken upon this great question? Is it not possible for a joint manifesto to be issued, bearing the signatures of the leaders of all Parties, the leaders of the Churches and employers of labour, commending the work of the National Savings Movement and appealing for continued and ever greater support? I understand that action of a similar kind was taken in 1926 and had the most gratifying results. I throw out that suggestion to the National Savings Committee, and I feel sure that they will be aware of the value of such a declaration to-day.
Apart from that idea, I commend this Motion to your Lordships. In a recent issue of, I think it was, The Countryman, there was a story of a mother who, passing by a church with her little girl, was asked: "Mummy, is that a church?" "Yes, dear," said the mother. "But Mummy, it does not move," went on the child. "No, dear," said the mother, "churches do not move." "Oh, yes, they do," corrected the child, "for only yesterday in school we were singing 'Like a mighty Army, moves the church of God.'" This is the National Savings Movement. The dictionary definition of "movement" is: "A series of acts or events tending towards some definite end." The end of the National Savings Movement is the financial stability of the nation and the personal welfare of the individual. I suggest that that is an end which should commend itself to us all. I beg to move.
Moved, That in the interests of national economic restoration it is incumbent upon all sections of the community, without distinctions of Party, to support the National Savings Movement.—(Lord Inman.)
3.0 p.m.
LORD WOOLTON: My Lords, I asked the noble Marquess who leads us on this side of the House if he would be good enough to allow me the privilege of speaking to this Motion, which has, I think, been hovering about the Order Paper for some time. I had at least three reasons for wanting to speak. The first, I agree was not very worthy: I wanted to support the noble Lord, Lord Inman, who now speaks from a Back Bench and perhaps is not quite so important in this House as he was heretofore, but he is very important to those of us who have to travel
1076
about the country a great deal, because he now controls all the hotels! I thought that if I could ingratiate myself with him it might help me in the course of the many travels I have to make for what he probably would regard as a not very useful purpose. About that we might reasonably agree to differ.
Then I wanted an opportunity of saying a word of welcome to the noble Lord, Lord Mackintosh. I thought I was going to have the privilege of congratulating him on his maiden speech, but my instructions were that I must speak first. The noble Lord, Lord Inman, certainly gave Lord Mackintosh the opportunity of making his speech in the most favourable circumstances. I am sure I am voicing the opinion of all Parties in your Lordships' House in saying that we are looking forward to that speech with great interest, not only because of the speech itself but because of the noble Lord who is to make it. I happen to have been privileged to be associated with him in the past, and on that account it gives me particular pleasure to speak with him to-day. The rest of your Lordships who have not had the privilege—and it is a very real privilege—of knowing him personally will, I am sure, be glad to welcome him because of the great work that he has done for the country during the last few years.
If I may revert to the mover of this Motion for a moment, I would say that I was most interested in his speech. It is a great pleasure to those of us who sit on these Benches when our Socialist-Capitalist friends opposite (and they are increasingly large in number these days) come forward with propositions welcoming the creation or the accretion of private capital. We like to find ourselves in agreement with noble Lords opposite. I assure them that they can always rely upon our keenest support in any proposition that has for its object the encouragement of thrift, or any movement that will help to make people feel that they have a private stake in the country, and that they are looking after themselves and not looking forward to the time when a benevolent Government will take care of them. That, I think, was the whole essence and philosophy behind the noble Lord's speech. I am sure that he spoke with great wisdom, and he will find nothing but support on this side of your Lordships' House.

1077
On reading the Motion, I thought that when the noble Lord put it down he probably had one simple motive—he will forgive me if, for one moment, I have the impertinence to inquire into his motives. I think what he really wanted to see was Whether he could get a clear statement on behalf of the Conservative Party as to where we stand on this issue of national savings. Whether that was the motive or not, I am going to give him that statement, and give it without qualification. The noble Lord, Lord Mackintosh, has in the past asked me to do this, and I hope I am not going to disappoint him.
The Conservative Party regard the Savings Movement as entirely outside Party politics, and they hope that none of their members will seek to bring it into Party politics. Whatever Government are in power, they will need to encourage national savings. The Conservative Party in fact go a little further than just giving support to this movement. Not only are we inclined to regard ourselves as supporters, but, if noble Lords opposite will allow me to say so, we regard ourselves as a sort of "National Savings Protection Society," because one thing that is concerning us at the moment as a Party is the decline that is taking place in the purchasing power of money. It seems to me that it is incumbent upon any Government who are seeking the savings of the public to be able to say to them, "When we hand this money hack to you, then, to the best of our ability, it shall have the same value in purchasing power as it had at the time When you lent it to us." That seems to me to toe the ideal towards which any Government should strive. There you have the attitude of the Conservative Party towards the Movement. Its attitude is one of encouragement to people to save, and one of being watchdogs over people's savings in an endeavour to secure that they shall retain their value.
I know that there have been voices of dissent, but I do not think they have arisen from any doubt about the value of this Movement. We think that the Government is borrowing too much and spending too much. Good borrowers are cautious spenders. They must be careful lest the money they spend is unwisely spent, and lest it does not give a
1078
return at least equal to the interest that is charged on it. There are some grounds for apprehension. I look at the amounts the Government have borrowed: for coal mines £230,000,000, on which we are losing money; over £1,000,000,000 for the railways and canals, on which there is considerable danger of our losing money; the £530,000,000 for electricity; and the £180,000,000 that we are going to borrow to buy the gas industry. When I look at those things I wonder—I will be very moderate and say no more than this—whether all those nationalisation projects are not involving us in a vast superstructure of Government borrowing which may well depreciate the national credit. I think that is a moderate statement. Those are factors that are working in people's minds against this admirable Movement.
But I want to express the opinion that, whilst the transport stock that those of us who owned railway shares were compelled to take from the Government appears to be in need of Government support in the market to maintain its nominal value—and its maintenance is indeed difficult—that does not apply to the money invested in national savings. I emphasise that because I think it is of the greatest importance to the country. The Post Office have surely done a most admirable job in the speed with which they have repaid any moneys that have been required by the public who invested their money in national savings. They have repaid them quickly and, of course, in full. Therefore, I want to say emphatically that, for my part—and I am speaking for my Party—I believe that national savings are safe. What we have to concern ourselves about in the country is not the safety of national savings but the purchasing power of the pound, which is very far from safe.
Whilst we are on this subject—and I was glad the noble Lord mentioned it by inference—it is important to realise that there are other forms of saving besides buying national savings certificates. In this discussion we should recognise those forms and also that they serve equally the purpose of mopping up the surplus spending power that is abroad. I am thinking of such things as life insurance, investments in building societies, deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank, in the Trustee Savings Bank and, in fact, in any of the banks. In addition, there are various ways in which people so inclined

1079
(and, I think, wisely inclined) may seek to invest their money, such as by buying houses or—as I should like to think increasing numbers of people will do in this country—by investing in the businesses in which they are occupied, so that they may have some real interest in the conduct and the success of those businesses. That is what we on this side of the House mean when we talk about a "property-owning democracy"—if I may repeat one of our slogans.
The National Savings Movement is, indeed, a movement aiming at the creation of property-owning by the largest possible number of people in the country. On those grounds, I am glad to have had the privilege of giving support to this Resolution. I hope that the noble Lord will think that I have, without qualification, given my full support, and that my words, if they carry any weight because of the office that I hold, may be of some use to this Movement in the country. I thank your Lordships for your patient hearing, and I have great pleasure in anticipating the welcome that your Lordships will give to the noble Lord, Lord Mackintosh of Halifax.
3.13 p.m.
LORD MACKINTOSH OF HALIFAX: My Lords, I would have preferred to wait a little longer before venturing to speak, especially as since I had the honour of being introduced into your Lordships' House I have been engaged in visiting all parts of the country in connection with the National Savings Silver Linings Weeks. Therefore, I have not been able to attend your Lordships' House with the regularity with which I certainly hope to attend in the future. However, I cannot well remain silent on such a Resolution as is before your Lordships to-day. Naturally, I acquiesce in everything that my noble friend, Lord Inman, has said. Indeed, he has covered the ground very adequately. My noble friend Lord Kindersley, because of his long and distinguished leadership in this Movement, will be able to cover the ground more adequately than I can. I wish to thank the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, for the kindly references he made to me, and my noble friend, Lord Inman, for moving this Resolution. And I wish to extend my thanks to all your Lordships for giving
1080
me such a good wicket for my first innings.
In supporting the Resolution, which, of course, I do wholeheartedly, I speak on behalf of the army of voluntary workers in the Savings Movement, of whom there are some 350,000 throughout the country and whom I have the privilege of serving. If ever a body of men and women deserve the support of all Parties, they do. The recent White Paper, the Economic Survey for 1948, reveals a state of things almost as serious for the nation as was the fall of France. Then the nation was saved by the sense of duty in face of grave and imminent dangers of the ordinary men and women in the street. In 1940, when we stood with our backs to the wall, men and women everywhere rallied to the call. Then, through the Home Guard, Civil Defence, the W.V.S. and in many other ways of voluntary service, the nation rose to the occasion. It was then that the National Savings Movement grew to its full stature. Now once again comes the call, but this time, the fight being on the economic front, the savings army become front line troops. The Second World War was fought and won on three fronts—the fighting front, the munition front and the financial front—and failure on any one of those fronts would in the end have brought disaster and defeat on all. To-day, in our struggle for economic recovery, we again march in three columns. The need of the hour is more and more production, more and more exports and more and more savings. Again, failure on any one of these fronts will bring failure and disaster to them all.
No one would dream of bringing Party considerations into the drive for more production and more exports, but I regret to say that some people have allowed political considerations to influence their support of the third front—savings. As my noble friend, Lord Inman, has said, it is true that that does not apply to the leaders of any Party. I have heard with great pleasure to-day the pronouncement of the noble Lord, Lord Woolton; it was worth having this debate if only to have that statement from such a key man as he is. However, up and down the country we are hampered in our work—and I speak from first-hand experience—by people who perhaps are not openly antagonistic but are very lukewarm in their

1081
support. If the Resolution which we are discussing to-day should meet with your Lordships' approval, it will go a long way to rallying any who may be hesitant in their support.
There are two sides to our work: first, the effect of thrift and saving on the individual; and, secondly, the cumulative effect of those savings on the national economy. It is the latter aspect that sometimes meets with political bias by those who do not think the matter through but take only the short and narrow view. They think that, if national savings help the national economy, they must therefore help a Government with whose programme they are not in agreement. In a narrow and limited sense I suppose that is true, although in the present situation, with a Budget surplus running into hundreds of millions of pounds, even this half-truth has little weight. To withhold savings for that reason is to do little or no harm to the Government of the day, whatever Government that may be, but is to do great harm to the nation as a whole.
I think I can illustrate the point by referring to the annual dinner which is given at the Mansion House by the Lord Mayor of London, the Bank of England and the City bankers to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. As many noble Lords know, the traditional toast on that occasion is not, as one would expect, "The health of the Chancellor of the Exchequer" or "Success to the Government" or "The Budget"; it is simply "Prosperity to the public purse." That is exactly the purpose of the National Savings Movement, a task which we have endeavoured to tackle for over thirty years. How successful we have been your Lordships can judge when I tell you that the small saver in this country has accumulated a total of just over £6,000,000,000 in National Savings. Perhaps it would interest my noble friend. Lord Inman, to know that that is the figure he asked me to give. That figure is made up as follows: There stands at this moment to the credit of those who have invested in national savings certificates £2,070,000,000; of depositors in the Post Office Savings Bank £1,937,000,000; of depositors in the Trustee Savings Bank £737,000,000, and of investors on the Post Office Register, mostly for purchases of defence bonds, £1,267,000,000, a total of approximately £6,000,000,000.
1082
The last decade has seen a great redistribution of both capital and income. In the past, well-to-do men and women and big business were able, out of their savings, to provide the capital which was required for progress either by industry or by the nation. That situation no longer prevails. By the end of the war we had reached a position where, out of a total net income of the nation—that is, all our incomes totalled together, and after deduction of tax—we were left with £6,500,000,000 to spend each year. Of that figure some £5,000,000,000—about five-sixths of the total—went to people with incomes of less than £500 a year. Therefore, the ordinary man and woman, the small savers, must be taught to play their part. I venture to suggest to your Lordships that this has nothing to do with politics, but has everything to do with the prosperity of the public purse.
I mentioned just now that the total amount standing to the credit of small savers was no less than £6,000,000,000. Your Lordships may be interested to note that this is a sum slightly in excess of the total share capital of every limited liability company in the country, large and small; and all national savings are at call or short notice. Just think what anxiety there would be in the business and financial world if that were true of their capital. That we have no such anxiety in the case of national savings is due in no small measure to the influence of the National Savings Movement on the character of our people. I cannot help thinking that had France had the benefit over the last thirty years of some such voluntary organisation as the National Savings Movement, she would largely have avoided inflation and other economic troubles which have afflicted her. Just after the liberation we sent over to France a team of experts to start a similar savings organisation there. Some stayed several months, but they got nowhere, largely due to the fact that there were not sufficient men and women such as we have here who were willing to sacrifice their time and effort to the service.
Finally, I would like to refer to the other and more fundamental aspect of our work—saving and its effect on the welfare of the individual. The Movement exists not primarily to support the national economy of any Government, but to teach the virtues of thrift to the individual and,

1083
through its savings groups, to make saving easy. There can be no progress in the life either of the individual or of the community unless people are prepared to put aside something out of to-day's pay for the needs of to-morrow. Everybody concerned with the running of a business or a nation must be prepared to put some of today's money aside for the needs of tomorrow. No one will deny, therefore, that thrift and the self-restraint that goes with it are virtues that should be encouraged in every citizen. Ben Jonson long ago said:
"Learn to be wise and practise how to thrive."
Coming nearer to our own day, Doctor Johnson said:
"Economy is the parent of liberty, integrity and of ease."
And finally, coming to our own century, Theodore Roosevelt said:
"If you would be sure that you are beginning right, begin to save."
I maintain that at no time was it more necessary to develop the characteristics of independence and self-reliance than it is to-day, if we are to avoid the danger of developing into a nation that has everything done for it and takes it all for granted. That is the main purpose of the 200,000 savings groups in the country. We start with the children in the schools and we follow them into the factory and into the home. At the present time there are over 6,000,000 members of National Savings groups. But that is only part of the story. It is estimated that there are no less than 27,000,000 people in this country who hold one form or another of national savings investments—27,000,000 people who own either certificates, defence bonds, or Post Office Savings Bank or Trustee Savings Bank accounts. Many of them own both, but it is estimated that there are 27,000,000 separate investments in small savings, and the great majority of these people have passed through our hands at one time or another—at school or in the factory—and have learnt their habits of thrift by being members of our groups.
The National Savings Movement depends almost entirely on its voluntary workers. Mr. Anthony Eden, speaking at a savings rally recently, said:
"I believe that the great voluntary movements in this country are of immense importance to the whole structure of our society."
1084
Then, going on to speak to our workers, he said:
"You have given of your time and your leisure to serve your country, irrespective of the political complexion of the Government in power and of your own political views."
That is important because, although we are a non-Party movement, it does not mean that individual members of the movement do not hold the strongest personal political views. That is how democracy works. Mr. Eden also said:
"By doing this you have confirmed your faith in the future of our democracy and in the continued strength of the great voluntary institutions, like the National Savings Movement, upon which our society so heavily leans."
That is what Mr. Eden said, and it is for those reasons that I commend this Resolution to your Lordships to-day. These men and women deserve the support of all Parties, for if they were to become discouraged and give up we should lose not merely savings, not only money, but something which is even more precious—an influence which has touched the lives of nearly every man and woman in the land and thereby done much to develop the character of our people.
I wonder if I might finish with a quotation from Chaucer. Speaking of one of the characters in his Canterbury Tales he said:
"His business was to show a fair behaviour,
And by example draw men to their Saviour."
In the much more mundane affairs of the struggle for our economic survival, it is the business of the savings worker to show "a fair behaviour." Much more than that, these people not only know and practise in themselves the virtues of thrift and saving, but they are prepared to give of their time and strength to lead others into the paths of "fair behaviour." I often say of the Savings Movement that we do more than raise money; we raise hearts, too. The passing of the Resolution that is before your Lordships to-day will go far to raise the hearts of savings workers everywhere. In conclusion, my Lords, I should like to give my cordial support to the Resolution moved by my noble friend, Lord Inman.
3.30 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, it is a fortunate chance that this

1085
Resolution has ultimately been timed to come on soon after the introduction into this House of the noble Lord who has just spoken, and thus to give him an opportunity of making a maiden speech upon a topic which he is pre-eminently well equipped to develop. Happily for us, he has decided to give us to-day the benefit of his wide and intimate experience of the Savings Movement, to which he has dedicated so much productive thought and purposeful energy, and we have only to acknowledge, with gratitude and with appreciation, the informed and, consequently, informative contribution which he has made. He has broken the always somewhat formidable ice, and, having broken it, we hope that he will often, and soon, attack it at other points, having found the waters beneath it so contrary to nature as to be both warm and buoyant.
The subject of this Resolution needs no lengthy commendation for it will, in general terms, receive the eager and unanimous assent of your Lordships in all quarters of the House. I desire only to express on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches their agreement both with its form and with its aim. Your Lordships will recall that in a recent economic debate my noble friend, Viscount Samuel, laid great emphasis upon the vital necessity, not only of maintenance but, indeed, of intensification of the Savings Campaign, and he has; asked me, on his behalf, to convey his regrets to your Lordships at his unavoidable absence this afternoon and at his consequent inability to reassert his views. Those regrets are reinforced by his consequent loss of the opportunity to be the first to congratulate the noble Lord who is the present organiser of victory in this particular campaign.
In the course of his speech, the noble Lord who moved this Resolution asked for assurances as to the views of other Parties on the wholly non-political character of the Savings Movement. I would like, on behalf of the Liberal Party, to supplement the assurance already given by the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, on behalf of his friends, by saying that we regard this particular movement as being far above all Party political considerations, and dedicated purely to the furtherance of the interests of the nation as a whole. That need not necessarily prevent us from making two passing comments. The first is that the success of the Savings Movement, at least to some extent, depends
1086
upon the example given by the Government of the day of their own determination to insist upon the strictest and most obvious economies in every field. The second comment is—and this is a point which has already been made by the noble Lord, Lord Woolton—that the investor in savings is entitled to lock forward with a lively expectation to recovering from his savings at least something in close approximation to the purchasing power of the money which he invests. This House has upon this, as upon every other subject, experts to address your Lordships, and I am sure it will be a matter of satisfaction to us all that the noble Lord, Lord Kindersley, who has had such a lengthy and distinguished association with this particular movement, is to take part in the debate. I think, too, that your Lordships in all quarters of the House will join with us on these Benches in cur regret that the late noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, is no longer with us to bring his authority and experience to the common stock.
3.35 p.m.
LORD KINDERSLEY: My Lords, it is hardly necessary for me to say how strongly I support the Resolution moved by the noble Lord, Lord Inman, but I find my task rather a difficult one in view of the fact that there have already been four speeches referring to this particular topic, which, after all, is a limited one, and that, consequently, much that I had intended to say has already been said. Before going further, I would like to refer to the incident which Lord Inman mentioned as having occurred at a meeting which he attended. He said that some very politically-minded gentleman used the occasion to make an attack on the Government. As your Lordships know, I have been closely associated with this movement, at its head, for thirty years, and one rule which I have laid clown and which has always been earned out with absolute strictness is that if any politician uses our platform for political purposes he has a black mark registered against him and is never allowed to speak for us again. As I say, that rule has always been very carefully kept. I am going to ask Lord Inman privately afterwards for the name of the gentleman of whom he spoke, in order to ensure that he does not appear again on a Savings Campaign platform.

1087
As your Lordships will all appreciate, there is, of course, a great difference between stimulating savings in time of war, when you have such a wonderful field, and in doing the same in peace-time. The gulf between the two tasks is extremely wide, for in peace-time the difficulties are greatly increased. That is something which we have to recognise. With that preface, I want to say that none of us who belong to the Savings Movement—and I include myself—feels satisfied with the recent results. I do not want to bore your Lordships with a lot of figures, but I think that perhaps it is worth while examining—because so many figures are available for that period—the period from the beginning of the financial year to December 31 last. Those figures are really very interesting in certain directions. In that particular period, the following cash disbursements to individuals have been distributed by the Government in the ordinary course, or rather in carrying out their necessary duties. The return of post-war credits amounted to £48,000,000 during that period of nine months. War Damage payments for business and chattels were £51,000,000; family allowances, £39,000,000; and defence bond maturities not included in the weekly figures, £74,000,000.
There is another item which I think must be taken into account—the Services release benefit accounts. From July, 1945, to December, 1947, the benefits credited to the three Services amounted to £379,000,000. Those amounts, as you know, were credited to individuals in the Post Office Savings Bank, and they could do what they liked with them. The withdrawals during the same period amounted to £323,000,000, and of them £79,000,000 took place in the nine months to which I have referred. If we add together all those items, which are special so far as savers are concerned because they are windfalls, we reach a figure, distributed in cash to individuals, of £291,000,000. That sum is additional to the ordinary income of individuals.
Let us look at savings during the same period. The receipts from national savings—and it is a wonderful figure—were £726,000,000, while the withdrawals were £613,000,000, leaving a net increase of only £113,000,000, although those windfalls of £291,000,000 had been received. I have taken those figures
1088
because they emphasise that the public to-day are not doing their job in saving. I confine myself to the cash payments and Service credits because the very fact that they have been distributed has a definite bearing on the tendency towards inflation. There are other figures with which I will not bore you, as the noble Lord, Lord Mackintosh, has already given them. During those nine months, in which I say the public have not done their duty, we have had special facilities for saving. At the beginning of the financial year a new certificate was issued. Anybody could purchase those certificates to the value of £500, in addition to the £375 they had been allowed from 1916 to the beginning of this year. Therefore every one of us, instead of being limited to a holding of £375, could hold £875. The security was in the useful form of a 10s. certificate, which I think was a brilliant idea. In spite of that, we find that the public have contributed on balance only £163,000,000.
When one sees a failure like that, one naturally wants to find out what are the causes. It is obvious that the patriotic people who have abstained from purchasing new clothes during the last ten years come to a moment when they must do so. I remember the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, referring to that in a speech not so long ago. I may tell him that by my abstention I can beat him in that respect. We have reached a point where a great number of people, who have been splendid in holding back in the purchase of clothes, household goods, curtains, sheets and so on, must buy. I think that fact is playing a great part in the failure of people to save to-day. Then one has to remember that with the vast number of investors—28,000,000 in Savings Banks, 18,000,000 holders of certificates and 2,000,000 holders of defence bonds—the number of deaths every year necessitate a large number of withdrawals. On those figures, we can count, on an average, 400,000 withdrawals through death.
But those are not sufficient explanations, and I am going to touch on what I know to be a subject which is not a popular one with any political Party. I refer to the tremendous increase in gambling in this country. I say, without any hesitation at all, that I do not care how hard people work, it is absolutely impossible for savings to succeed side by side with the wave of gambling that is going through the country to-day. I hope

1089
regard will be paid to the findings of the Royal Commission on Lotteries and Betting, 1932–33, where it was definitely laid down that in no circumstances should a company owning a racing track be allowed to gain money from the betting side of their business. As it is, they are earning up to 6 per cent., which is in direct opposition to the findings of the Commission. I know it is a big subject, which one cannot explore to the full to-day. I merely say it is my opinion, and it is an opinion shared by hundreds of thousands of people, that the two things cannot flourish side by side. I hope that every noble Lord in this House will do his best to minimise the ill effects of this curse which is overrunning the country.
It is not easy to follow four or five speakers on the same subject. I can only say that I hope the whole effort of the Savings Movement from now onwards will be concentrated so far as possible on the maintenance of the group system and on the encouragement of the small saver. It is the group system and the small saver we want. Of the subscriptions to the new certificate, 72 per cent. are in the highest unit—100. Those subscriptions are not from the small saver. But it is the small saver we want. The groups are declining every day. As I pointed out at the beginning of my speech, we cannot expect to have the same enthusiasm as in the war. What we want, however, is to stop the rot in the group system. I support most strongly this Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Inman, and may I at the same time express the very real hope that the recent setback in savings may be speedily overcome and that the work of the noble Lord, Lord Mackintosh, may continue with success.
3.50 p.m.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT ADDISON): My Lords, on behalf of the Government, I am very glad to welcome this Motion, and to express our hearty agreement with it. In common with other noble Lords, I am glad to offer a welcome to the noble Lord, Lord Mackintosh, and, as Lord Kindersley has done, to wish him the success he deserves—the success which the nation needs in the enterprise which he has so gallantly undertaken. I would like also to join the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, in saying that we are determined
1090
to do whatever we can to keep this entirely outside Party considerations. I would, in so doing, also express my sincere admiration for the agility and cleverness with which the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, withstood the temptation which was obviously in his mind. I have often admired him before, and I admire him again on that account. I am glad that he recognises that those of us who sit on these Benches have sympathy in our hearts for people—to use his own words —"having a stake in their own country." I was greatly encouraged by that. It shows that if the noble Lord, with the diligence and cleverness which have characterised his career, will pursue his researches into the philosophy of our Party, he may even be changing sides one day.
LORD WOOLTON: Thank you very much!
VISCOUNT ADDISON: At all events. I am greatly encouraged. Putting that on one side, I join with the noble Lord with complete sincerity in his desire that this enterprise should be kept entirely free from Party considerations. As a nation, we certainly need these savings. We need them just as much now as ever we did during the war. It may be a different kind of battle we are fighting, but it is a battle all the same. Then we fought a battle for liberty; this is a battle now for restoration. We may have our different views as to how the battle should be conducted, but there can be no difference of opinion as to the necessity for solidifying the basis of our national finance.
I am glad the noble Lord, Lord Wool-ton, said what he did with regard to the importance of savings as a sort of brake on prices. We are suffering from the increase in world prices more than people realise. Although I do not propose to trouble the House with the m at this stage, I have some figures here showing what the effect of the increase of prices has been upon our national position. To give just one example, I see that the trade deficit in 1938, which was £70,000,000, would be £180,000,000 expressed in terms of last year's prices. That shows what a difference the increase of world prices alone has made to our national economy.
All those who are interested in agriculture will have recalled many times how our fellow citizens of the Commonwealth in Canada used to look forward to having

1091
what they called "dollar wheat." It was only the other day that wheat boomed up to three dollars a bushel. Happily the World Wheat Agreement that was recently concluded has fixed a ceiling of two dollars a bushel for five years; but even that is twice as much as the Canadian farmer hoped for four years ago. It is that increase in world prices which is having its effect on our national economy. We all know that if there are two people with a little money in their pockets who want the same thing, it tends to push up the price. Although this increase in prices may be a little of one thing and a little of another, when the figures are aggregated in terms of the needs of a population of 45,000,000 people they are immense.
I myself think with the noble Lord that the National Savings Movement should be looked to just now as one of the most important elements for putting a brake on the rise in prices, and, therefore, safeguarding us against inflation. It should be impressed upon the people at every meeting that the best way to safeguard the pound sterling is to save it, so as to avoid unnecessary purchasing. That is the way to keep our sterling strong. Just as these figures at the back of our financial strength, to which the noble Lord referred, helped us to finance the war, so now they are indirectly helping us to finance the new power stations, to buy the machinery required for agriculture, or whatever it may be. They are just as necessary today to finance restoration as they were to finance the war in years past. I will desist from giving some of the other figures which I had painstakingly collected in anticipation of this debate, because of the excellent example set by other speakers in refraining from using figures. Perhaps the noble Lord opposite, Lord Cherwell, who so often delights us with his manipulation of figures will remember this. At all events, there can be no question that to maintain the stability of our country, to restrain the rise of prices, and to help to finance recovery, as the noble Lord, Lord Kindersley, has said, the increase of savings is a first necessity. On that account we welcome this Motion.
4.0 p.m.
LORD INMAN: My Lords, I think only two or three sentences are necessary in view of the cordial welcome that has been given to this Resolution. I noticed that
1092
at the close of one debate, the noble Lord in closing said that he thought the length of the debate was an indication of the importance attached to the subject. Our discussion to-day has been comparatively brief, but I am sure no one would belittle the importance of this great subject. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, made an appeal to me. He said that I may not agree with the purpose of his journeyings round the country, but perhaps I would see that he is made comfortable at the hotels under our control. If the noble Lord will forgive my saying so, I feel perfectly sure that he will need compensation after some of those dreary pilgrimages, and I will certainly make him comfortable so far as lies within my power.
I would just like to add one more word of welcome to the noble Lord, Lord Mackintosh. We are delighted to have him with us, and I would like to congratulate him upon his speech. We hope that both he and the noble Lord, Lord Kindersley, will have great success. The other day a friend of mine came to my hospital to be examined. The specialist gave him a thorough examination, and at the end he said: "Well, you know, organically you are perfectly sound, and all you need is a tonic, a pick-me-up." I believe that the hundreds of thousands of workers in the National Savings Movement will benefit from the tonic which has been given them in your Lordships' House this afternoon, and I am grateful for the support given to this Motion.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.
4.15 p.m.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The following Bills and Measure received the Royal Assent:

Consolidated Fund (No. 1),

Attempted Rape,

Supreme Court of Judicature (Amendment),

Army and Air Force (Women's Service),

Water,

Cinematograph Films,

Police Pensions,

Royal Marines,

1093

Local Government,

Sutton's Hospital in Charterhouse Charity Scheme Confirmation,

Glasgow Corporation Order Confirmation,

Clergy Pensions Measure.

CERTIFICATE FROM EXAMINER.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the
1094
Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiner that the Standing Orders have not been complied with in respect of the Petition for Additional Provision in the following Bill:

SMETHWICK CORPORATION.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at half past four o'clock.