§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Amendments reported (according to Order).
§ Clause 12 [Continuation of third fixed grant period for certain purposes]:
§
LORD HENDERSON moved to add to the clause as a new subsection:
(4) Any scheme made under any of the enactments mentioned in paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of this section
965
which, by virtue of this section, continues in operation on or after the first day of April, nineteen hundred and forty-eight, may be altered or revoked by a subsequent scheme made at any time between that date and the date when the enactment in question ceases to be in force as aforesaid.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 12 provides for the continuation of the third fixed grant period under the Local Government Acts, 1929 to 1941, until the appointed day under the National Health Service Act—namely, July 5, 1948—for certain purposes. These purposes are set out in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of subsection (1) of this Clause. Amendment or revocation of these schemes is necessary from time to time, in consequence of changes in expenditure or other circumstances, and power to amend or revoke schemes at any time before the end of a fixed grant period is given by proviso (a) to Section 131 (2) of the Local Government Act, 1929. This proviso is repealed by Clause 145 (2) of the Bill and Part I of the Second Schedule, with effect from April 1, 1948, and the Minister will, under Clause 12 as it stands, be unable after that date to amend or revoke a scheme. The proposed Amendment gives the Minister power to make any amendment or revocation which may be required during the period from April 1 to the date on which the schemes cease to have effect—that is, the appointed day under the National Health Service Act, which is July 5. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 15, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Henderson.)
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, this Amendment seems to be quite all right and we have no objection to its insertion. It makes the clause rather more flexible than it would otherwise have been.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 30:
§ Investigation into working of provisions as to amount of payments to local authorities under Part II.
§ 30.—(1) In the year 1952–53, or such later year not later than 1955–56 as the Secretary of State may determine, and every fifth subsequent year, the Secretary of State shall, in consultation with such associations of local authorities as appear to him to be concerned and with any local authority with whom consultation appears to him to be desirable, cause investigations to be made into the working of this Part of this Act (due regard being had, amongst other things, to the sums falling to 966 be paid to local authorities under Part V of this Act).
§
THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved to add to subsection (1):
Provided that if the Secretary of State is satisfied on representations made to him by any local authority or by any such association as aforesaid that the first of the said investigations should be made in a year prior to the year 1952–53, he shall cause an investigation to be made in that prior year, and in that event the foregoing provisions of this section shall have effect with the substitution of that prior year for the year 1952–53 or such later year as aforesaid.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment refers to Clause 30, which makes provision for possible investigation into the operation of the formula for the distribution of equalization grants. In the event of the equalization grants not proving entirely satisfactory, it is open to the Secretary of State to hold an investigation as from the year 1952.
§ The purpose of this Amendment is to add flexibility to that arrangement so that, in certain circumstances, it will be possible for the Secretary of State, if he thinks it wise, to hold an investigation at an earlier date. The Amendment makes the administration of this clause more suitable and more flexible, and also, possibly, more adaptable should circumstances not work out entirely as it is hoped they will. I recognise entirely the purpose of this Bill and I fully appreciate it; I think that in many ways it is well founded. But whether in practice it will work out as well as the Government hope, I do not know. I feel it proper and wise that some wider measure of flexibility should be incorporated which enables alteration to be made should this prove in the light of experience to be necessary. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 15, at end, insert the said proviso.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
§ LORD MORRISONMy Lords, the House will remember that the noble Earl raised a somewhat similar point during the Committee stage and I promised to look at it again to see whether it was possible to meet it. The noble Earl has now been good enough to put down a slightly modified version of the Amendment which he moved then. He will remember—and possibly the House will remember—that when I agreed to look 967 again into this particular point I did so with the proviso that if he found words which were acceptable to the Government they should apply only to Scotland, and not to England and Wales. The noble Earl has been good enough to put his Amendment in this modified form, and I am pleased to accept it.
§ THE EARL OF SELKIRKI beg to thank the noble Lord for what he has said. I can assure him that it will give great satisfaction to many local authorities in Scotland.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 35 [Draft lists]:
§ LORD LLEWELLIN moved, in subsection (1) (b), to delete "a copy," and insert "three copies." The noble Lord said: My Lords, those of your Lordships who were here during the Committee stage of this Bill will remember that we had some discussion then on the provision in Clause 35 about the sending by the valuation officer of one copy only of the valuation list to each rating authority. We pressed from this side that there should be enough copies for rating authorities in widely scattered areas to display them in convenient places—as for instance in the local church or in the village hall, should there be one in the locality. This would mean that occupiers who had had assessments made on their property need not go all the way to a town, which might be some way from their place of residence, but would have easier access to the official notification of the new assessment.
§ During the Committee stage, the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, said that he would take back this part of the Bill and look at it again. It was suggested in the hearing of the whole House that we should meet to discuss this together. I am glad to say that we have done that, and as a result of our discussion I have put down this Amendment, by which three copies of the valuation list, instead of only one, would be supplied. The necessity of having three copies, instead of two, arises because nowadays the paper is printed upon on both sides. If one part of a list is cut then damage may be done to some other part of it. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to accept this Amendment. I believe that as the result of our discussions he will be able 968 to do so, and its adoption will mean that the people affected will be able to ascertain their new assessments without being put to the trouble of going to the Town Hall or wherever may be the headquarters of their local authority. This, and the following Amendments on this page, all hang together, the others being merely consequential on that which I am now moving. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 6, leave out ("a copy") and insert (" three copies ").—(Lord Llewellin.)
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, as the noble Lord has rightly said, there was agreement on this and I am going to accept the Amendment. I would just add that in the circular to local authorities the Ministry of Health will indicate to them the purpose for which extra copies are being sent—that is, so that they may be broken up and displayed in the locality.
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, perhaps I may take the opportunity of thanking the noble Lord for accepting this Amendment and also for stating that in this circular all necessary information will be given to the local authorities so that they will know what they are expected to do with the extra copies.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD LLEWELLINThe next Amendments, as I have already indicated, are consequential. I beg to move.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 22, line 16, leave out ("the copy") and insert ("the copies ");
§ Page 22, line 17, leave out ("is") and insert ("are");
§ Page 22, line 19, leave out ("the said copy") and insert ("one of the said copies");
§ line 22, leave out ("the said copy") and insert ("a copy of the draft list")—(Lord Llewellin.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 56:
§ Advertising stations to be separate hereditaments in certain cases.
§ 56. Where the right to use any land (including any hoarding, frame, post, wall or structure erected or to be erected on the land, and including also any wall or other part of a building) for the purpose of exhibiting advertisements is let out or reserved to any person other than the occupier of the land, or, when the land is not occupied for any other purpose, to any person other than the owner of the land, that right shall be deemed 969 for rating purposes to be a separate hereditament in the occupation of the person for the time being entitled to the right, and shall be included in the valuation list as a separate hereditament accordingly, and, notwithstanding anything in section three or section four of the Advertising, Stations (Rating) Act, 1889, in estimating the value of the land for rating purposes no account shall be taken of any value or, as the case may be, of any increased value arising from the use of the land for the purpose of exhibiting advertisements in accordance with that right.
§
LORD TEYNHAM had given Notice of a series of Amendments to Clause 56, the lust of which was to delete the opening words: "Where the right to use." The noble Lord said: In moving the first Amendment, may I suggest, for the convenience of your Lordships, that the remaining Amendments on this clause standing in my name should be discussed together, as they all have a bearing on the same subject, and are, in fact, consequential on the first Amendment? During the Committee stage of the Bill I moved an Amendment to insert a new clause in place of Clause 56, which we are now discussing, and, after hearing the points put forward by the noble Lord in charge of the Bill I agreed to withdraw it for further consideration, I have come to the conclusion that the limited object which I desire to be incorporated in the Bill can be attained by the Amendments which I have now set down on the Order Paper. The object is a simple one, and it is to ensure that the clause does, in fact, carry out the intentions of the Minister as he stated them when he introduced this clause in another place. He said that the purpose of the clause was not to create unfairness, and I will now read his words from Hansard. They appear in column 1256 and are as follows:
The purpose of the clause is to restrict the advantages which the railway companies possess in the absence of the clause. Without this clause that property would not be rated for local purposes and the clause is moved in order to make it rated.
§
I should like to make it quite clear that there is no difference of principle involved in this matter, and there is no dispute as to whether advertising stations other than for railway advertisements or railway property should be rated direct or should be rated indirectly through the general cumulo, because the Minister has himself stated that he wants to take them out of the cumulo, He said—and I propose to read the actual words from Hansard:
970
This is to make it quite clear that, where a piece of property is let out by a railway company or an electricity undertaking for the purpose stated in the clause, for advertising, it shall be possible to rate it as a separate hereditament. Local authorises were naturally anxious at the fact that these undertakings did not now appear on the local rating roll, and would be part of the cumulo of both electricity and transport, and, therefore, would only make an indirect contribution to the local revenues. We should not deny to the local authority the possibility of rating those hereditaments which could not be regarded as inseparable.
§ I would suggest that the clause as drawn fails in some respects, for technical reasons, to accomplish this object. By using the words "let out" or "reserve" it opens the door to all the legal uncertainties which, in fact, due to the use of similar words in the Rating Act of 1874, arose in regard to the rating of sporting rights on the derating of agricultural land. I think it would be found that although an advertising station owned by the railway might be used for advertising some commercial product quite unconnected with the railway, it would not be rated separately in accordance with the intentions of the clause; in fact it would only be so rated if it were "let" or "reserved."
§ I would suggest that, in course of time, no such sites would, in fact, be "let" or "reserved" and the railway department dealing with advertisements would not have to take into account any direct liability for rates in arriving at the charge to be made for advertising, and would thus be able to compete unfairly with the private contractor of advertisement space. What is more, the rating authorities would lose the possibility of rating those advertising stations. This Amendment, and the following Amendments, will ensure that the clause accomplishes its object, and will have the effect of leaving to be included in the cumulo all advertising stations which are used for advertisements of the railway itself, but advertising stations used for advertising anything not connected with the railways will become subject to separate rating. The Amendments also make the person who permits the space to be used the person liable to be rated, and thus the clause will maintain the same liability as in Section 3 of the Advertising Stations Rating Act, 1889. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 37, line 4, leave out from ("where") to ("any ").—(Lord Teynham.)
§ LORD HENDERSONClause 56 does not deal only with railways, and the Amendment radically alters the intention of the clause, quite apart from the point about railway advertisements. But as the noble Lord has stressed the aspect of railway advertisements, I will deal with that first. The noble Lord quoted from a speech by the Minister in the re-committal stage of the Bill in another place, but I think he did not go far enough in that reading of the speech, because the Minister went on to say:
in other words, we are alienating from the railway cumulo certain advertising stations "—
§ Lord HENDERSONColumn 1257—
We are saying that where they are let out and contracted for as advertising stations, they shall be liable to local rates. The purpose of the clause is a mitigation of what the right honourable gentleman considers to be an evil.The Minister was replying to a criticism made by a Member in another place. I think that makes it perfectly clear that the Minister not only knew what he wanted but was satisfied that the clause as drawn was achieving what he had in mind.The noble Lord has argued that, as the Transport Commission do not have to pay rates on advertisements on the railways, except of course those which are let out, they will tend to undercut agencies who do have to pay rates. There seems no good ground for that assumption. The Commission are at present at an advantage in that they do not have to pay rent for advertising sites. They hold the property for other purposes. Agencies do have to pay rents, and therefore their overheads are inevitably higher. But the practice of the Commission is to charge the standard rates of the trade, which are understood to be graded, according to situation, on a recognised scale. There is not the slightest reason to suppose they will wish to depart from that practice. They will no doubt want to get the maximum rent they can from their advertising space. Apart from railway advertisements, the Amendments to Clause 56 would make separately rateable any advertisement—using the word of the Amendment—"of" any person other than the occupier. This phraseology seems to us to be just as difficult to work as the alternative new clause which the noble Lord moved on Committee stage and which was withdrawn. 972 It would produce an impossible situation in which every poster outside the grocer's, or the tobacconist's, or the newsagent's, would have to be separately assessed unless it contained simply the name of the shopkeeper or of something he himself produced. Having regard to those arguments, which I think prove conclusively that the Minister is achieving by the clause as it stands the purpose which he had in mind, I am afraid that I must say again that I am not able to accept the noble Lord's Amendment.
LORD TEYNHAMI cannot say I am very satisfied by the reply of the noble Lord, but I was glad to hear the assurance that the Railway Executive will quote the standard rates of the trade. I am grateful for that assurance. In those circumstances I do not propose to press my Amendments, and I beg leave to withdraw the one I have moved.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause 69 [Use of public rooms]:
§ LORD HYLTON moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "shall be entitled to require" and insert "may request the permission of." The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will recollect that during the Committee stage it was felt in all parts of the House that Clause 69 as drafted was unfortunate. As it is drawn, it seeks to place the valuation officer—who in future will have no connection with any local government body—in a position to requisition what are referred to in the marginal note as "public rooms." The actual words are "shall be entitled to require." These public rooms may be the Guildhall or council chamber, or committee rooms of any local authority. It was felt, and felt strongly, I think, that this was not the best method to effect the purpose intended.
§ It was generally agreed that it would be much more effective, and would lead to better relations between the valuation officer and the local authorities concerned, if agreement could be reached between the two parties interested. It was agreed that these rooms, as in the past, should be available for the purpose required, but that an agreement between the parties concerned would be infinitely preferable to the very dictatorial method laid down in the clause. At the present time local 973 authorities are working under great pressure, and anything that will exacerbate the conditions of working between valuation officers and local authorities would be deplorable. It was with that in mind that I put down these Amendments, which follow one from another, to ensure that the valuation officers shall request permission from the local authority concerned for the use of the rooms. Your Lordships will see that in subsection (4) of the clause the power to determine any dispute is left in the hands of the Minister of Health. It was agreed, and clearly put by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, that the power to settle any disagreement should be left in the hands of the Minister. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 34, leave out ("shall be entitled to require") and insert ("may request the permission of ").—(Lord Hylton.)
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, my noble friend has given the reasons for this Amendment and the subsequent Amendments. We all recall that in the discussion on this point on Committee stage there was general agreement in the House that this sort of arrangement should be effected, so far as possible, by agreement. I pointed out why the Minister would require reserve powers but it was still felt that perhaps this was not the happiest way to achieve the agreed purpose, and it was taken back to be reconsidered. The Amendments achieve what the Minister had in mind, perhaps by a much better method and certainly one more conducive to amity. I am quite prepared to accept this and the consequent Amendments.
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, since I took part in the discussion—indeed it was I who suggested that a compromise might be reached so that in default of agreement the Minister should decide—perhaps I may say that I think the words now put forward by my noble friend Lord Hylton will from the start put the whole matter on a more friendly footing. I am very much obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, who I know has taken a considerable amount of trouble about this matter, for having persuaded the Ministry to accept this point, and for accepting the Amendment on behalf of the Government.
LORD HYLTONMy Lords, I should like sincerely to thank the noble Lord, 974 Lord Henderson, for his assistance in re-drafting the wording of this clause, which I am sure will help to secure those friendly relations that are so desirable between the various bodies interested in local government. I would ask the noble Lord if he can give me any assurance at this stage that the reasonable costs of lighting, heating and cleaning these rooms will be met by the valuation authorities, in the same way as they are met at present under the existing Local Government Act.
§ LORD HENDERSONI can give that assurance to the noble Lord. I think the Ministry of Works are responsible for these premises.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 41, line 36, leave out ("to make available for") and insert ("for the");
§ Page 41,line 38, leave out ("requirement any") and insert (" request of");
§ Page 41,leave out lines 40 and 41 and insert ("the council or authority shall not unreasonably withhold their permission ");
§ Page 41,line 42, leave out ("shall be entitled to require") and insert (" may request the permission of ");
§ Page 41,line 45, leave out from ("acts") to ("use") in line 46, and insert ("for the");
§ Page 41,line 48, after ("panel") insert ("on such days as may be specified in the request of");
§ Page 42, line 1, leave out from ("and") to the end of line 3, and insert ("the council or authority shall not unreasonably withhold their permission");
§
Page 42,line 11, leave out from beginning to ("shall") in line 12, and insert—
("(4) Where a request is made under subsection (1) or subsection (2) of this section, any dispute as to whether the permission of the county council or rating authority has been unreasonably withheld").—(Lord Hylton.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ 3.3 p.m.
§ Clause 76 [Meaning of "hypothetical 1938 cost of construction"]:
§
THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to add to subsection (6):
and any person shall be entitled to obtain from the rating authority a copy thereof for his own use upon payment to the authority of such fee as may be prescribed by regulation's of the Minister.
975
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is one to which I referred on the Committee stage of the Bill. Your Lordships will remember that under subsection (2) of this clause the Minister is to prepare for each rating area, after consultation with the rating authority, a statement; and what will be embodied in that statement is contained in paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (2). When that statement has been prepared it will be deposited with the offices of the rating authority, and the general public may go and inspect it as and when they please. All I want to ensure is that any person who wishes to purchase a copy from the rating authority shall be entitled to receive a copy if he pays the prescribed fee. I do not think there was any difference between the noble Lord and myself on the Committee stage of the Bill. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 47, line 30, at end insert the said words.—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, we regard this as a perfectly reasonable provision, and I am happy to accept the Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 77 [Meaning of "hypothetical 1938 site cost "]:
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, this Amendment deals with precisely the same point in the next clause of the Bill. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 49, line 4, at end insert ("and any person shall be entitled to obtain from the rating authority a copy thereof for his own use upon payment to the authority of such fee as may be prescribed by regulations of the Minister ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 80:
§ Other small post-1918 dwelling-houses, except flats and maisonettes.
§ 80.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the gross value of any small post-1918 dwelling-house which is neither a local authority or housing association dwelling-house nor a flat or maisonette shall be five per cent. of the hypothetical 1938 cost of construction of the dwelling-house plus five per cent. of what is for the time being the value of the site, estimated on the basis—
976
§
THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "what is for the time being the value of the site" and insert:
the value of the site on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and forty-nine.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is rather an important Amendment, which I also raised on the Committee stage of the Bill. Clause 80 deals with the rating of "Other small post-1918 dwelling-houses, except flats and maisonettes." Under Clause 80 (1) your Lordships will observe that the assessment is to be:
five per cent. of the hypothetical 1938 cost of construction … plus five per cent. of what is for the time being the value of the site.
It is the words at the end which I seek to omit, and I want to insert instead:
the value of the site on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and forty-nine.
What that will mean, as I understand it, is this. When a house comes to be reassessed, the valuation officer will make a calculation on the hypothetical cost of construction of the dwelling-house, plus 5 per cent. of the site value as at April 1, 1949. Once that has been done it will not be altered during the next quinquennial period: in point of fact it cannot be altered again, unless Parliament passes another Act dealing with this matter. I hope the noble Lord, who was certainly not averse to the previous Amendment, will accept this. Before I move the Amendment, perhaps I should make it quite clear that, as I understand what I have put down, if any house is built hereafter and comes up for assessment, the assessment will be on the hypothetical cost of construction, plus 5 per cent. of the site value on April 1, 1949. I think perhaps I should make that point clear to your Lordships, and if I have interpreted it wrongly, no doubt the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, will be good enough to tell me so. I do not want to repeat all that I said on the Committee stage of the Bill, which will no doubt be familiar to noble Lords who were here during that discussion. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 22, leave out from the first ("of") to ("estimated") and insert ("the value of the site on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and forty-nine ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, I think I can give the noble Earl an assurance on his understanding of the operation of the Amendment in relation to the date, and on its operation in relation to a new house built after the date. He is quite right in both eases, and I have pleasure in accepting the Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 105 [Temporary grants by county councils to county district councils, parish councils, etc., in certain cases]:
§ LORD HENDERSONmoved, in subsection (2) (a), to delete "rateable value for that district for that year had been diminished by" and to insert:
product of a rate of one penny in the pound for that district for that year had been diminished by a sum ascertained as follows, that is to say, by dividing by two hundred and forty.The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is largely a drafting point. The purpose of subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 105 is to provide a method of ascertaining the change in rate poundage for the year 1947–48 due to the loss of rateable value from the derating of railways and electricity; and if this change is more than 2d. a grant will be attracted from the county council. Some doubt has been expressed as to whether the rate poundage for 1947–48, determined under subsection (1), and the reduced rate poundage, determined under subsection (2), are strictly comparable, because under subsection (2) the rateable value which enters into the calculation is by definition the fixed figure of the rateable value at the beginning of the year, whereas under subsection (1) variations in rateable value are taken into account. This argument is probably unsound, but the Amendment removes any doubt by referring to the product of a rate of one penny (multiplied by 240) instead of to rateable value. I think perhaps this Amendment will meet the point of the next Amendment on the Paper, standing in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 21, leave out from ("the") to ("an") in line 22, and insert the said words.—(Lord Henderson.)
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, has said, 978 the Amendment which he has moved does dispense with the necessity for the two Amendments to this clause which stand in my name. This matter was brought to my attention by the Wiltshire County Council. Unless we had put it right, it might have attracted a grant in the case of Swindon, which was not intended, I think, by the Minister or anybody else. I am told that the amount of grant attracted under the Bill as originally before another place would have been about £12,350. On the wording, if we had not amended it now, the calculation is that it would have come out at about £35,000. This is the fair way of doing it, and at present I am told that the estimate is about £18,000. The Bill was not meant to act unfairly in that way, and I think the Government have fully met the point raised by the Wiltshire County Council. There may be other cases in which it would have applied equally wrongly, but at any rate in this instance the people who raised the point are fully satisfied with the Amendment which the noble Lord has moved and they are grateful to the Government for having met their view.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD HENDERSONThe next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 45, leave out ("penny rate"), and insert ("rate of one penny in the pound ").—(Lord Henderson.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MORRISONMy Lords, this drafting Amendment is consequential on the Amendment to Clause 105, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, in the Committee stage and accepted, providing for the insertion of subsection (7). The reference in the subsection to an amount due under a precept requires translation for Scotland. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 73, line 4, after ("county") insert ("for any reference to an amount due under a precept there shall be substituted a reference to a sum payable under a requisition issued under section two hundred and fourteen of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1947").—(Lord Morrison.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
979§ 3.24 p.m.
§ LORD ADDINGTON moved, after Clause 126 to insert the following new clause:
§ "Transfer to county councils of property and liabilities relating to county roads.
§ . Where by virtue of Part III of the Local Government Act, 1929 (which relates to the vesting, repair and maintenance of county roads) and whether before or after the passing of this Act—
- (a) any road within the area or a borough or urban district council has, since the appointed day for the purposes of the said Part of the said Act, become a county road and the council have not within the time specified in the said Act, claimed to exercise the functions of maintenance and repair with respect to that road; or
- (b) a borough or urban district council, having or being deemed to have claimed as aforesaid with respect to a county road in their area, have since the said appointed day relinquished the aforesaid functions with respect thereto;
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a point which was raised on the Committee stage, and the clause I then sought to insert was found to be worded not altogether suitably. It has now been redrafted with the co-operation of the noble Lord opposite, and I hope it is now more suitable. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 90, line 24, at end, insert the said clause.—(Lord Addington.)
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, I am quite ready to accept this Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 131 [Provision of entertainments]:
§
LORD HYLTON moved to add to subsection (1):
Provided also that a local authority which is the council of a county district shall, before exercising either generally or particularly the powers conferred upon them by this subsection, consult the local education authority for the administrative county in which the district is situated with a view to ascertaining what facilities have been or are proposed to be provided by the local education authority in accordance with the duty imposed upon them by section fifty-three of the Education Act, 1944.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a new point which was not brought 980 out on the Committee stage. Clause 131, upon which a certain amount of discussion took place on a previous occasion, refers to entertainment and gives power to local authorities to levy rates for the provision of theatre halls, concert halls and dance halls—in fact very wide powers. The object of my Amendment is to effect a very simple thing: that local authorities, when wishing to exercise those powers, either generally or particularly, shall consult the local education authority for the administrative county in which the district is situated.
§ The marginal note of Section 53 of the Education Act, 1944 reads as follows:
§ "Provision of facilities for recreation and social and physical training."
§ It appears from that clause that the local education authority—which of course is a county council body—has a duty to provide in every county adequate facilities for recreation, social and physical training. There are thus two bodies, the county council and the district council, both being made responsible for, or being given powers to implement, facilities for all kinds of recreation, social and physical training. It seems clear that some form of co-ordination should be exercised at an early stage, and my Amendment suggests that that stage should be when the proposals are initiated—that is to say, at the county level. Local authorities should consult with their local education authorities as to what the latter have in mind to provide, before the local authorities themselves make application to the Minister for loan charges or any other form of expenditure. I think that by so doing a great amount of unnecessary correspondence and work for the Minister of Health will be saved.
§ Those of your Lordships who have seen any of the further education proposals submitted under the 1944 Act by local education authorities will realise that they include the erection of a large number of assembly halls and other buildings which are just the sort of buildings which may be required by the district council under the powers now proposed for them in Clause 131. It would be a saving, especially to the Ministries in London, if this prior consultation at county level took place. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 92, line 46, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Hylton.)
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, I hope the noble Lord will not press this Amendment. It is the general practice for local authorities to consult on matters of this kind, and I think we should leave it to their good sense to see that where there is need for it consultation will take place. It takes place at present in general practice, and we can rest assured that it will take place normally in future.
§ LORD LLEWELLINMay I ask one question on that point? If an extra hall, or anything of that sort, is being built for any of these facilities, I take it that an application will be made to the Ministry from the local authority for a loan towards the expenditure. Before dealing with it, would not the Minister normally make inquiries in the locality, to see whether or not similar buildings were being erected by some other authority?
§ LORD HENDERSONHe certainly would; and he would insist on consultation taking place if it had not already taken place. He would not authorise a loan unless the case for its necessity were made perfectly clear.
LORD HYLTONMy Lords, I think the noble Lord has rather missed my point. What I want is prior consultation before any Ministry is brought into the picture. If I may say so, I think the noble Lord is a little optimistic in his suggestion that the local authorities—that is to say district councils—will in fact always consult with the local education authority. The noble Lord suggests that it always is the case, but from what experience I have, I am afraid that it is not always so. But this is not a question of principle in any way, and if the noble Lord who, after all, is responsible, is satisfied that such consultations will take place—and I think he will agree that they are eminently desirable—I will not press this matter, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§
LORD LLEWELLIN moved to insert the following new subsections:
(4) A local authority who propose to borrow money for any of the purposes authorised under this section shall, before applying to the Minister for his consent to the borrowing, publish in such local newspapers, and in such other ways, if any, as appear to them best suited for bringing the matter to the attention of persons concerned, notice of their
982
proposal, specifying the amount which and the purposes for which they propose to borrow and the time (not being less than twenty-eight days from the publication of the notice) within which any objection to the proposal may be made to the Minister.
(5) Where any such objection as is mentioned in the last preceding subsection is made to the Minister within the time specified in the notice aforesaid and is not withdrawn, the Minister shall not, unless in his opinion the objection is frivolous, consent to the borrowing of any money for the purposes in question until he has caused a public local inquiry to be held into the proposal, and, in considering whether or not to give his consent to the borrowing of any money for those purposes, he shall consider the report of the person by whom the inquiry was held.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will remember that on the last occasion on which we were dealing with this Bill we had some argument, and indeed a Division, on Clause 131. The three Amendments which are down on the Order Paper to-day in my name all run together, and with your Lordships' permission I will discuss them together. On the last occasion we inserted words in Clause 131 which now form subsection (10) of that clause. Looking at those words in the interval between the Committee stage and the present stage—I may as well be quite frank—that Amendment seemed to many of us to have gone rather too far and not indeed to be completely applicable. First, as drafted it paid little attention to the position in Scotland. Your Lordships will see, in subsection (10) of Clause 131 as it now stands in the Bill, that the procedure laid down is the same as hat under the Sunday Entertainment Act of 1932.
§ Neither House of Parliament, even in 1932, or in any other year, would, I think, dare to suggest that there should be general opening of cinematograph theatres in Scotland; therefore the Entertainment Act of 1932 does not apply at all to Scotland. The procedure is linked up as it might apply to Scotland in the case of a private Bill, but there is no provision in Scotland for any local poll as there is in England and Wales. What happens there is that representations are made to the Secretary of State—any local government elector can do that. Those representations are considered by the Secretary of State, or the people in his Department may consolidate them and put up the case to him; and then he, in his unfettered discretion, can allow or disallow the provision the local 983 authority sought to apply. That is the procedure in Scotland. Had we tried to adapt our present proposals we should have had to adopt completely distinct procedure for the Northern part of the United Kingdom and the Southern part.
§ Incidentally, subsection (10) goes a little far when it is realised that subsection (6) of Clause 131 repeals many provisions which allowed local authorities to employ, say, a band to play in a public park in their neighbourhood. That is a position which certainly I, and other noble Lords on this side who spoke in favour of the new subsection (10), did not have in mind. We do not wish to make it impossible for a local authority to have a band playing in a public park. The kind of expenditure we had in mind was not annual expenditure, and I think the noble Lord is right in his view on that matter; if it is found that a local council has been extravagant in its annual expenditure, the ratepayers can turn the council out at the next election. In short, in the case of ordinary current expenditure the situation is met by ordinary democratic means, but large capital expenditure is in a different category, because that expenditure is lasting, and there might be a burden on the locality for a long time afterwards; for whether it be a big municipal theatre or anything else of the kind it has to be maintained or something has to be done about it by successive generations of local government electors—but that is rather locking the stable door after the horse has got out.
§ So I am seeking now to take out subsection (10) which we inserted on the last occasion, and to substitute for it provisions by which, if objection is made to this expenditure by the local government electors, a local inquiry where the whole thing can be ventilated shall be ordered by the Minister. If the Minister finds a substantial body of opinion in the locality against the expenditure, then he has in his hands the right remedy, which is, not to give his sanction to the loan. The great advantage of the subsections which I am now submitting in lieu of the other one is that this procedure can apply equally in England and Wales and in Scotland at the same time. In fact it is quite normal at present for the Minister, if he thinks it necessary, to send down an inspector to hold such a public inquiry. 984 But in cases involving exceptional expenditure of this kind, for projects which may be turned down on submission to a local poll, it is necessary generally that if there are objectors there shall be a local government inquiry. It is the kind of provision which I very much hope the noble Lord, on behalf of the Government, will be able to accept. At any rate, I have no doubt that he will think it far less objectionable than the one which was adopted last time. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 93, line 40, at end insert the said new subsections.—(Lord Llewellin.)
§ LORD HENDERSONThe noble Lord has put the case for his Amendment fairly and straightforwardly, and there is nothing for me to add. As the noble Lord said, the Amendment refers to capital expenditure. The present practice is for the Minister to hold an inquiry when application for a loan is made. This Amendment is to convert the present practice into a statutory obligation, and I am quite prepared to accept it.
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERHaving been the culprit who moved the insertion of subsection (10) on behalf of my noble friend Lord Llewellin, I frankly admit that I had no idea that it did what my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, tell me it does. For that reason, I am only too happy to see it disappear and this new subsection inserted. As the noble Lords have said, this subsection deals entirely with capital expenditure, which was the one thing which was worrying me when I moved the other Amendment on the Committee stage of the Bill. I am grateful, and I am happy to see subsection (10) depart.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 94, line 40, at end insert—
("(a) no money shall be borrowed for the purposes authorised under this section except with the consent of the Secretary of State;
(b) for any reference to the Minister there shall be substituted a reference to the Secretary of State.")—(Lord Llewellin.)
§ LORD MORRISONMy Lords, this is the necessary Scottish adjustment which arises from the acceptance of the new 985 subsections (4) and (5) just moved by the noble Lord. Paragraph (a) is required because in Scotland, unlike England, under the permanent legislation dealing with borrowing by the local authorities the consent of the Secretary of State is not required, unless a resolution to borrow fails to obtain a two-thirds majority.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, this Amendment is agreed. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 95, line 10, Leave out subsection (10).—(Lord Llewellin.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD ADDINGTON moved, after Clause 134, to insert the following new clause:
§ "Assistance by local authorities to other bodies.
§ . A local authority in England or Wales may, with the consent of the Minister given either generally or specially, contribute towards the expenses of any body carrying on activities within the area of that authority, being activities for the purpose of furthering the development of trade, industry or commerce therein, or of giving advice, information or other assistance to persons resident therein, or otherwise for the benefit of that area or those persons."
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords this is another matter which was referred to on Committee stage. The clause then suggested has been redrafted, with the cooperation of the noble Lord opposite. I hope that it is now satisfactory. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 134, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Addington.)
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, this is a useful provision. I am glad to be able to accept it.
§ LORD ADDINGTONThank you very much.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 136:
§ power to assist in performance of transferred functions.
§ 136.—(1) Where, by or under the Electricity Act, 1947, or any Act passed during the present Session providing for the establishing of public ownership of the gas industry, any undertaking theretofore carried on by a local authority is transferred to any other body, the authority may enter into an agreement with the body for the performance by the authority, as agent for the body, for such period as may 986 be specified in the agreement, of such of the functions of the body as fall to be performed within the area of he authority as may be so specified.
§ LORD ADDINGTONmoved, in subsection (1), to omit "as fall to be performed within the area of the authority." The noble Lord said: My Lords, This is a slight modification to a clause that was put in at the previous stage. It has now become desirable to delete the words in lines 45 and 46, which would limit a local authority to the performance of functions only within their own area. I understand that this has been agreed. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 96, line 45, leave out from ("body") to ("as") in line 46.—(Lord Addington.)
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, the noble Lord has explained his Amendment. I am quite prepared to accept it.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 145 [Repeals]:
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, I apologise to the House that I have one brief manuscript Amendment to move. It is an Amendment to Clause 145, page 103, line 37, after the word "different" to insert the word "rating." It is a purely consequential Amendment on the Amendment which the noble Lord accepted to Clause 72, when we inserted the word "rating" in subsection (1). My attention has only just been drawn to the matter. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 103, line 37, after ("different") to insert ("rating").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, my noble friend has rightly explained that this is a consequential Amendment. I am glad to accept it.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution):
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
§ Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Henderson.)
§ 3.44 p.m.
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, before we part with this measure, I think 987 it right that I should say a few words. When I first came to look at the Bill, and started reading its clauses, I was rather appalled at the complicated nature of a good deal of it. I do not know whether the same thought occurred to the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, when he first looked at it, but perhaps I may be permitted to congratulate him on the way he has mastered the Bill and, also, on the manner in which he has striven to meet us on every reasonable point (and most of them have been reasonable) that we put up. We may all rejoice that once again we have shown the value of this House as a revising Chamber, and that we are sending back a better Bill to the other place. I hope they will be wise enough to accept all the Amendments which have been agreed upon here and that this will be the closing chapter of the Bill in this House—because I must confess that I do not want to have to read through all its clauses again. While I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, I think we may also congratulate ourselves on a good job of work.
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, perhaps I may add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, and thank him for the manner in which he has accepted the many Amendments which I have moved. I do not wish to repeat anything which was said by the noble Lord behind me, but I desire to make a personal explanation to your Lordships. During the Committee stage of the Bill, I moved an Amendment to leave out subsection (2) of Clause 128, which dealt with subscriptions to local government associations. In the course of my remarks, I unfortunately said that the National Association of Local Government Officers were a trade union, that they were affiliated to a political Party and that in due course of time they paid their levy to the Socialist Party. Since then, I have had many letters of a somewhat vigorous tone telling me that this Association are entirely free from all politics, that they subscribe to no political Party and that they have no intention whatsoever of doing so. If I have misled any of your Lordships with my remarks, which were based on information that I had received and which were made on my own initiative, then I unreservedly withdraw them on this occasion.
§ LORD CALVERLEYMy Lords, I, too, should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, on the way in which he has tackled this Bill. I do not pretend that I was able to understand every line of it when I came to read it. Nevertheless, I congratulate the noble Lord on completing his task in such an efficient manner. If bouquets are to be thrown, I do not see that it is right that all the bouquets should come only from one side of the Houe. I know that every noble Lord sitting on these Benches would like to join other noble Lords in expressing their appreciation of what the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, has so well and truly done.
I am glad that the noble Earl, Lord Munster, has acknowledged his error in what he said about N.A.L.G.O. Those of us who serve on local government bodies know N.A.L.G.O. well, and N.A.L.G.O. would be the first to claim that they are a body quite as respectable as the Primrose League, of which the noble Earl is such a distinguished member. I should also like to congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Munster, on making such a handsome apology—or, at least, an explanation. Apparently he was afraid that the ratepayers were going to have all sorts of fancy entertainments, including the noble Earl's favourite entertainment—nigger minstrels! He has retracted his previous statement and has given us a handsome explanation. Seriously, though, this Bill is a monumental piece of work, in connection with which the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, has done credit to both himself and the Party to which he belongs.
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, I would like to express my personal gratification at the generous words that have been said about me in connection with this Bill. What I really want to do, however, is to express my thanks to the House. Noble Lords will remember that when we came to the Second Reading it fell to me to explain that we were working with a very short time limit—for obvious reasons—and I had to appeal to the House to give consideration to this matter in the light of the time-table. The reason we have got through so rapidly and successfully is that noble Lords in all parts of the House have responded to the appeal which was then made. It would therefore be wrong for me to allow the Third Reading to pass without expressing to 989 your Lordships, on behalf of the Minister and the Government and also, if I may say so, on behalf of myself, our thanks for the response which has been made to our appeal.
§ On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments.
§ Bill passed and returned to the Commons.