TRANSPORT SERVICES FOR SCOTTISH ISLANDS.

HL Deb 25 February 1948 vol 154 cc130-70

4.27 p.m.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH asked His Majesty's Government to state what assistance they propose to provide in transport and other communal services for crofters and others who make their living on the small islands off the north and west of Scotland; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, it is a far cry from the New Forest to a small island away to the north off the north of Scotland, to which I ask your Lordships to come with me in imagination for a short time this afternoon. Your Lordships have had an extremely interesting debate about the New Forest, and many considerations of a very human kind have been under discussion. I do not think your Lordships will find the subject which will come under the heading of this Motion any more lacking in human interest. The island to which I particularly wish to take your Lordships is Foula, which lies thirty-five miles to the north of the Orkneys and twenty miles to the west of the Shetlands. It has rocky cliffs, rising hundreds of feet out of the sea, and I believe it has been well called "the edge of the world." Standing there, with nothing to the north of you, you might well feel that you are standing on the very edge of the world.

The island is only about three miles by two miles, and what is of interest to us here to-day is that it is the home of a hardy race of men in whose veins, I doubt not, runs the blood of the Vikings. The communication between this little island and civilisation is a six-oared row-boat which does the trip every week to Shetland; but, of course, during the winter the island is cut off for many months at a time. These crofters are a proud and independent race. They are intolerant alike of compulsion and of charity; and those are both characteristics, I say at once, which endear them to me. The crofters are passionately attached to their island. I do not think you can get a greater love of country anywhere than in the remote glens and islands of Scotland.

There is an old naval man who has come back to Foula after serving his time and going all round the world. He is quite clear about it. He says that he has been all over the world, and that there is nowhere in the world to touch Foula. Thirty years ago there were more than 200 people in Foula; to-day the population numbers something under 100. But it is increasing now. I do not know whether it is because the man-made difficulties with which people have to contend on the mainland are worse than the climatic and other difficulties with which nature presents the population in Foula, but it is true that the population is now increasing. I was rather interested to hear the noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, let drop an opinion just now that these are more troublous times than the times of King Canute. I wonder. I would rather like to have King Canute's view about that; I should think he had very considerable difficulties to deal with in his day. Anyway, whatever the reason, the population of this island is now on the increase.

The first question I want to ask His Majesty's Government is: What is the official policy of the Government and of the county council concerned, with regard to this small outlying island? I have some reason for concern about this, because a correspondent, who is intimately connected with this island and spends a lot of time there, wrote me about a year ago a letter in which the following occurs: I was discussing the problem a few days ago with a high-ranking official on the Board of Agriculture. When I said that the Lerwick people "— of course, Lerwick is the county town of Shetland; that is where the county affairs are regulated— were in favour of evacuating all outlying islands, he calmly replied: ' That, I think, is the direction in which our policy also would lie.' When I enumerated the things which Foula could contribute to the outside world, he said: There is nothing that you could produce in Foula which could not be produced better and more cheaply elsewhere'. I am hoping to secure a very definite pronouncement of policy from my noble friend on that point. I would set against it, if I may, as the shortest way of summing up the argument, an extract from one sentence of an article which I wrote in connection with the Hill Sheep Report in which I had the privilege to co-operate a few years ago. I said: Vitally important as are hill sheep to British agriculture, more important still to Britain is the race of men who produce and tend them. We all felt, I think,"— that is, the members of the Committee— that our aim was not only to repopulate the hills with healthy sheep, but to make the glens once more the home of happy, healthy, Scottish families.

That I believe to be a policy which will be endorsed by your Lordships, and by the noble Lord who is to reply. On the assumption that I shall receive a favourable declaration, I would say on that point only that I think it is important, provided that we mean to do that, to try to secure towards the fringe a different frame of mind, both at the centre and in the outer administration such as the county council. I am not underestimating the difficulties of a county council like the county council of Shetland. I believe that they cover some twenty-seven islands, more or less remote, and that the product of a penny rate is £60. Of course, the difficulties are immense. Nevertheless, I think the county council must be drawn from people who probably live in Lerwick. And I think it is important that from time to time the centre should give them an indication, and they must direct their attention to their own fringe as well as to their own immediate affairs.

Having, I hope, done something to secure a declaration of policy from the noble Lord, I am now going to try to make some practical suggestions as to what can be done, because I believe that in this particular case remedial measures are easy and will give immediate results. The first thing that is needed is a boat—a boat which will be able to ply out to Foula and do two things which are urgently needed: first, to convey goods into the island; and, secondly, to bring the cattle out. This point about cattle is vital. A few years ago, when they had a better boat, there was an export of 100 head of cattle a year from Foula. That export has now entirely ceased. The point is that Foula is a hill sheep country. There are 4,000 acres of good hill sheep ground in Foula and, as those of your Lordships who are acquainted with hill sheep farming know, the vital thing on the hills is to have cattle. Sheep concentrate on the fine grasses, and if there are only sheep the coarse grasses and the sphagnum moss are left and the fine grass deteriorates. That is one of the main recommendations of our Hill Sheep Report, that we should encourage cattle on the hills. The Government are doing that; they are giving a cattle subsidy. There are two or three kinds of cattle which can winter on the hills, and that is vital to the best production on the hill sheep ground. Foula must have a boat which will enable this export of cattle to be resumed, and in this way we shall achieve what this country is now most urgently needing—namely, a greater production of both beef and mutton, and also, of course, wool. Another thing that boat could do would be to take in the lime. Although Foula is so remote, and has its cliffs, it is, nevertheless, first-class hill sheep country; but it is lime hungry. I am told that the soil is good, but that it urgently needs lime. There is a lime-producing plant quite handy on the mainland—that is, of course, the mainland of Shetland. I am talking about the mainland of Shetland, and not about the mainland of Scotland. This boat could serve all those purposes.

What I want to ask my noble friend to do is to think hard as to how a boat could be found. I do not think that it should be impossible. If one thinks of all the might and majesty of His Majesty's Navy which is now lying tied up in harbour all over the country, I feel certain that there must be suitable boats tied up, rusting and doing nothing, which could be handed over to these islanders. I offer this suggestion to my noble friend. I am told that there were vessels used for lifting buoys on the boom defence at Scapa. They are Diesel-driven, three-engine, 18-knot boats, complete with hold and derrick, 60 feet long, 2 feet forward and 4 feet aft, and possessing a draught sufficiently shallow to lie alongside Foula pier at any state of the tide. Running costs are very low, and the boats can be manned by two men. Such a boat could be kept in Walls or Scalloway and could serve the whole of the west side of Shetland. The crew would be part-time fishers or crofters. That is a suggestion which I think it is worth pursuing, but I would not limit it to that. If we can attract the interest of the Lords of the Admiralty, I am certain that they could find, if not that boat, then some other. There is a boat, the "Valkyria," which delivers lime and agricultural requirements, but I hope the noble Lord will not offer me the "Valkyria," because she is stationed on the east side of Shetland and Foula is on the west. I think most seamen would prefer to run to Orkney or Aberdeen than to venture round the roost. So much for sea communications.

I think that some attention ought to be paid to air communications. I do not know whether there could be some sort of air ambulance (I believe there is already), but there should be some sort of aeroplane available to take the officials about, and to convey urgent cases of sickness. The third question on communications is that of roads. There are hardly any roads in Foula. I think the islanders themselves would provide the labour if a proper grant, which I believe is available, were provided. I do not know what are the administrative difficulties, but nothing much seems to happen. Then there is the question of the pier and the slipway. The slipway is for the mail boat, and the pier, I think, has to be rebuilt for the benefit of the larger boat. I understand that things are moving there. There was an offer by the Board of Agriculture of an 85 per cent. grant if the county council would find the odd 15 per cent. The county council could not do that, and suggested that an application should be made for a 100 per cent. grant. But the islanders said that 100 per cent. was not necessary, and that they would find the 15 per cent. themselves. I believe that they are doing the work already.

Another practical suggestion which I would make is with regard to the question of fishing. There used formerly to be a substantial export of salt fish from Foula, but the line fishing, I understand, has been destroyed by the steam trawlers. There was a Report to the Scottish Council on Industry by the Committee on the White Fishing, which recommended that the coastline of Shetland should be regarded as running from Sumburgh Head to Foula and from Foula to Eshaness, and that trawling be prohibited within three miles to seaward of it. I am told that if that recommendation had been adopted, it would have restored prosperity not only to Foula but to the whole west coast of Shetland. I hope my noble friend will see what can be done about that because that will do something to restore the spawning beds.

Then there are certain sundry items which I would like to mention. Could not something be done to supply laboursaving machinery for the cutting and carrying of peat? Owing to the absence of roads, there is an enormous waste of labour, in that the women carry the peats on their backs in baskets—they call them "cushies." The War Department must have vehicles which were made for crossing boggy ground during the war. All sorts of vehicles were used, and I think the War Department might be able to help. That would be a tremendous help. The other thing which is wanted is the encouragement to the islanders to engage in winter occupations. They make small boats (which I believe are exported), with great skill. They also make furniture; and they are said to be very musical—certainly they can make violins. I have no doubt, also, that the weaving industry could be re-established. Therefore, expert advice is needed, and I believe that that could be made available. I am told that in 1947 the islanders had—and I wish to give full credit to the Central Department—visits from experts which were well received and were very encouraging. Their tuberculosis expert examined the cattle and pronounced the whole of the cattle in the island free. Incidentally, I believe that the children are extremely healthy, which is all to the good.

I have only one more word to say, and that is about housing. I think housing in Foula is a case where the best has been the enemy of the good. There is a 50 per cent. grant if you instal inside sanitation, plumbing and all the rest of it. Of course, you cannot expect people in Foula to rise from nothing to the modern town standard. They have made great improvements, but there ought to be some system whereby a smaller grant could be made available for a less complete approach to urban perfection. I do not want to labour the point, but I know that there has been considerable discouragement in that the medical officer of health has been over there and has rather discouraged them from making part improvements because they could not go the whole way. I do not want to detain your Lordships much longer, because there are other speakers to follow me. What I have done is to cite one particular case, although I know that my Motion is much wider. I propose to argue from the particular to the general. I am leaving to other noble Lords who will speak the question of developing the general point of communications in the West Highlands and the Islands. I would like only to remind the Government that they have the responsibility fair and square upon their shoulders now that transport has been nationalised. I am afraid they cannot escape by blaming the London North Eastern or anybody else. They now have it fairly upon their backs, and we shall look with interest to see how they carry it out.

In conclusion, may I say that I want three things? I want a declaration of policy with regard to the particular island of Foula, that the Government do not intend to work for the evacuation of these people or allow these people to be unnecessarily evacuated. I think it is the education authorities who want to get the children out and who want to put them in a school in town. I think a little less education and a little more country life in Foula would probably be better. Secondly, I want some promise of help in these particular matters of transport; in particular I want the Admiralty to try to find a boat, because I think that would do a tremendous lot to help. Thirdly, I want some recognition of the Government's responsibility for these communications under nationalisation. I beg to move for Papers.

4.46 p.m.

LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL

My Lords, this is the first time for eight or nine years that I have addressed your Lordships and it is therefore my maiden speech in this Chamber. I would not venture to detain your Lordships this afternoon were it not that the subject under review is one that is very close to my heart, and one about which I have considerable experience and a limited amount of knowledge. The noble Lord who has just spoken has directed your Lordships' attention to one particular island and the group which lie off the North coast of Scotland. For my part, I would prefer to direct your Lordships' attention now to that other group, the Inner and Outer Islands off the West coast of Scotland, and in particular I shall have occasion to refer to my own island home off the West coast of Argyllshire.

It seems to me that, in dealing with the question of the islands, we are dealing with a problem about which it is easy enough to enumerate the difficulties but very hard to produce the answers. I am afraid that to a great many questions the answers may prove to be somewhat uneconomic, by which I mean that, to provide the services we need, the Government or the companies concerned must not look for profit so much as for subsidy. There are two main points which I think we have to keep in mind. The first is that in dealing with these islands we are dealing with a small but virile population, comparatively unknown to many people—possibly unknown to many of your Lordships—and statistically only a small proportion of the population compared with the rest of the United Kingdom. Secondly, that population, in so far as it is situated in the islands, has to rely on sea or air transport for its supplies, as opposed to rail, road or canal transport.

For several years we have always heard the general complaint that we have inadequate steamer services, and sometimes there is a complaint nowadays that the air service is equally inadequate. So far as piers are concerned at which steamers are to land their cargo, they are either nonexistent or inadequate. There is a popular and well-known song in Scotland known as "The Road to the Isles," a song with an enchanting melody and attractive words. We have to remember that the real road to the isles is by the steamer which brings the mail, the rations and the general cargo produce, and that that route corresponds in the islands to what on the mainland is the train, the bus or the lorry. That being the case, I have often wondered why the denizens—I hope that is the right word to use; you cannot refer to the inhabitants of the islands as citizens—or at any rate the taxpayers of these islands should not be entitled to some grant from the Road Fund, some development fund, or other such similar source, to improve those services which are in fact the "Road to the Isles."

Still more do I feel some surprise—I am not sure I would have referred to this had not the noble Lord who preceded me mentioned the word "nationalisation "—that when the present Government took over the rail and transport services, they omitted to take over coastal shipping and, so far as I know, ferry services. I have a shrewd suspicion that that was because such services do not pay. I will not, however, press for an answer on that point. Perhaps it was rather tactless of me to raise the matter.

However, I think it is worth while remembering that the telephone and electricity services which are now being installed, or are to be installed, must entail heavy capital expenditure. We are most grateful for these services, and for my own part I should like to pay a warm tribute to the excellence of the work done by the staff and by the actual workers of the Post Office Telephone Services who are, at the present moment, engaged in linking up my own home with the mainland. Their efficiency, enterprise and energy is something altogether refreshing, especially to those who are inclined to say that people in this country do not work. If, however, I may express a preference so far as the Islands are concerned between electricity, telephone or shipping, I personally would give priority to the steamer services. It has always seemed to me that the order should be, first to get supplies to and from the islands regularly by ship; thereafter to know, by telephone, when those ships are coming, and thirdly to examine, distribute and, if necessary, consume those supplies by electricity.

I come now to the first point of which I have given specific notice to the noble Lord who is to reply, and that is the question of shipping, because that is the main point with which we in the Western Isles are concerned. I want to stress that, because, as I have already suggested, we are dependent on shipping for most of our supplies—certainly for those supplies which we cannot provide ourselves. That question has been intensified now by the fact that we are all on rations and we have to rely on the shipping service to bring us those rations, some of which are essential to everyday life for every man. In making the suggestion that our shipping should be improved, I am not intending in any way to attack the main shipping service to those islands. I know that Messrs. MacBraynes, by recent acquisition, have acquired a virtual monopoly of the coastal traffic; but Messrs. MacBraynes are, I think, doing their best in difficult circumstances. We have always to remember that, in addition to other difficulties, they have the conditions of weather to consider.

All these matters have been under consideration by the officials concerned and have been raised in your Lordships' House several times in the last twenty years or so, but I feel that the consideration that they have received thereafter has tended to be rather more passive than active. I hope that we shall now get more active consideration of all these urgent problems. In this matter I feel considerable sympathy for the noble Lord who is going to reply and who is now occupying the place which I once occupied myself, from which I had to answer questions on Scottish affairs. It sometimes requires a good deal of delicacy and tact to slide over the answers given, and I remember having myself, on many occasions, given voice to statements which in many respects were in conflict with my own views and perhaps rather abhorrent to my own feelings. I fully realise the difficulties, and I do not blame the shipping companies concerned. I would remind those who are concerned with this question that in the winter months, however good a shipping service is, it must inevitably on occasions find matters complicated by weather conditions.

Another point which the Government might bear in mind is the extreme shortage of shipping tonnage, at any rate of shipping of the right dimensions for our purposes. I cannot give details of the right sort of shipping required for these services with the same precise measurements that the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, has given for his corner of Scotland, but I can inform your Lordships and the Government that where I believe the shortage exists is in the provision of ships which are not too small to carry, say, 100 cattle, about thirty passengers and a requisite amount of cargo, and at the same time not too big to render them unsuitable for entering channels or tying up to piers, or, where piers do not exist, for getting in close to land their passengers or goods by ferry boat. It is well known that there has been, during the war and since, an extreme shortage of that type of vessel, and it is for the Government to say what they can do in the years to come to make provision of these ships.

If I may stress the necessity for regular calls rather more intimately, I should like to inform your Lordships that in my own home, off the Argyllshire coast, we rarely get more than one mail-boat delivery a week. We sometimes get two, but we cannot rely on more than one. We do not always know when that boat is coming. Recently, under a new arrangement made by Messrs. MacBraynes, one regular boat is, so far as possible, calling on Tuesdays. But that is not the whole question. Not only do we have to rely on these ships for our mails, but the inhabitants depend on them for their rations. The rations for the most part come from Glasgow or Greenock and it is important that they should arrive with reasonable regularity, because we have not facilities for keeping the goods very long. In the warm weather such items as fish and meat do not keep, and we are not sufficiently far advanced yet in the islands to have our own refrigerators. It is therefore important that the supplies should get there with reasonable regularity. I may perhaps be forgiven if I mention that last week when I left home the inhabitants had not received their supplies from Glasgow and Greenock for a fortnight—partly because of bad luck, perhaps, and partly because of bad management by all concerned.

The next point I wish to mention is that of piers, because they are most important. Where they do not exist, as is the case in my own home, in the island of Coll, and Colonsay, I feel that as soon as possible we should have some promise given to us of their construction, regardless of the capital cost, and regardless of the necessity to reduce capital expenditure to-day—a necessity of which we are all aware. If and where there are piers—and there are several—which are unsuitable and in need of repairs, then those necessary repairs should be accelerated so far as possible. Steamer services can be greatly improved if we have those piers, or those improvements to piers, because in that way time and fuel will be saved. The steamer in question, instead of wasting time landing goods by ferry-boat, can drop its cargo at a pier, take on its next cargo and proceed, thereby saving several hours of steaming.

Your Lordships, perhaps, will also not object to being reminded of the difficulties of landing produce at an island where there is no pier. In the case of my own home, when cattle have to be removed from land or taken to land, it necessitates a steamer carrying on board a horse-box. If an animal is going to the island it has to be placed in the horse-box, lifted and dropped into a ferry-boat, conveyed in the ferry-boat to the shore and lifted out of the horse-box from the ferry-boat to the shore; then the ferry-boat has to go back to the steamer for the next load. All that takes a considerable amount of time which could, and would, be saved if we had a pier.

There is one other point on this question of piers of which I have given the noble Lord notice. It is this. I think there is a tendency in the Western Islands for every little place to put up a case for its own individual pier, but it seems to me that to-day, when road transport is so important and so encouraged, the larger islands such as Skye, Mull, and North Uist, having between them a great variety of small piers, should concentrate on one main landing pier and upon having road services to intercommunicate between the different piers. It is really a form of centralisation which is required. I think it would be some economy for the steamers to call at one pier and drop as much as they can there, rather than aim at dropping small loads at many little piers.

I have one word to say about air services, and more particularly about air ambulances. In my own area—and I know that there has been a similar plea from certain districts in Mull—we are dependent upon air ambulances to get away vital cases. In areas such as mine, if there were an acute case of appendicitis to-night, with, no steamer due for probably three or four days, obviously it would be essential to get the patient away as soon as possible to a hospital where an operation could be performed. In some cases, that service has been arranged. I wish to stress, however, that we do have to rely upon air ambulances. This question is becoming more urgent in my own area and in the island of Mull, because recently the lifeboats which were delegated for that purpose have been moved further away. The lifeboat has now been moved from Tobermoray to Mallaig. The lifeboat is several hours journey away from Mull, and therefore in that large area there is no lifeboat immediately available for ambulance work.

I need hardly say that in all these matters if we could get an improved air service, both for passengers and for mail, it would be much appreciated. However, we have to face the fact that in many places the larger landing grounds required are not available. On the other hand, I carried out a little experiment myself last summer. I produced in considerable haste two landing strips 350 yards in length, and I was able to get two different types of aeroplane to land there. Therefore, I suggest to the Government that they might consider that possibility, and press the air companies concerned to look out for the smaller type of aeroplane, which does exist, I believe, and which could land on a small ground; or they might consider the use of the helicopter. I am no expert on any questions concerned with air, but I am informed that the helicopter although its performance is useful on certain occasions, is an expensive machine to produce. I understand that it is necessary to employ a specially trained pilot with a helicopter, and these machines may not be the answer to all these problems.

The last point of which I gave notice to the noble Lord is a small one, and I am not sure that I have any right to bring it to the notice of your Lordships' House. It is the question of lights. I have not had time to approach the Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses who are responsible in Scotland for these matters. However, I have consulted them in the past, and as a result of representations I made to them they were good enough to instal a light on a certain area of Skye where it was badly needed. My attention has been drawn to the fact that a light in the small channel between the islands of Coll and Tyree would save the present MacBrayne steamer service at least one or two hours on some of its routes, thereby creating a saving all round. That light would be a fairly easy one to put up. It is near the mainland and should not require much upkeep. It is not a really big lighthouse that is required. I hope that the Secretary of State will see his way to suggest to the Commissioners of Northern Lights that, if they have not done so already, they should consult with Messrs. MacBrayne and the other companies engaged in coastal traffic, to see where and if new and better lights for steamer services are required and justified. There is a tendency to concentrate most of the lights on the big shipping routes and rather to forget the small coastal traffic routes.

Those are the main points to which I hope the Government will give their active consideration. Finally, I would extend to the Secretary of State and his staff and officials, and to the noble Lord who is to reply—because he informs me that his knowledge of the Hebrides and the Orcadian Islands is not so perfect as his knowledge of London—an invitation to come and see the islands and study our problems for themselves. I can assure them that they will receive a warm welcome. In the past, we have had several visits from Secretaries of State, including one visit last year. I can assure the Government that those visits, however unproductive they may be of immediate results, do a tremendous amount of good. If the noble Lord or any of his friends come, I would encourage them to come not necessarily in August or September, when the sun is warm, the crops are green and turning to yellow and the area is thronged with tourists, but rather to choose midwinter time when the days are short and dark, the gales may be severe and the steamers accordingly delayed. Yet on every such day the work of producing food and caring for animals destined for the mainland goes on, always that population relying on the mainland for the few vital necessities which they require to maintain life.

5.10 p.m.

THE DUKE OF MONTROSE

My Lords, I think the crowded House and the packed Benches on the other side seem to indicate the great and real interest taken in Scottish and island affairs. Perhaps I may ask the indulgence of your Lordships for a few minutes, as I happen to be one of the very few members of your Lordships' House who have a home on an island on the West coast. I have lived there for over forty years, winter and summer, so I think I may claim to know something of what island life is like. I am glad that my noble friend, Lord Balfour of Burleigh—whose splendid work in presiding over the Scottish Hill Sheep Committee in 1944 we all appreciate—has raised this matter to-day, because if he is as successful in bringing out or wringing a policy from the Government as he was in what he did for sheep and agriculture, he will have done a good piece of work.

My noble friend refers in his Motion to the small islands. I have been among all the islands, and my impression is that whether one dwells on a small island or on a large island it is all much the same. The mode of life is the same, the difficulties are the same, the troubles are the same and the cures for which one prays are the same. Lord Balfour referred to the crofters. It may be that the original crofters were established by the 1886 Crofters Act. But the crofts were then bought from the Congested Districts Board, and in 1897 they were extended from 30 acres and £30 rent to 50 acres and £50 rent. Then, again, the Crofters Act was enlarged and extended to the whole of Scotland by the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act of 1911. So that in this Motion we are dealing not merely with crofters and small islands but with the conditions of small farmers on all the islands off the West coast.

My noble friend mentioned the word transport. The need for additional and extended transport is our basic trouble. We want more and better transport than we have now; all our troubles are based on that lack of adequate transport. I know that for years most of the transport has been done among the islands by the firm of MacBrayne, and I raise my hat to the good work that MacBrayne has done as a private individual in regard to shipping and carrying on the great industry of transport. Nevertheless, I feel that the day has come when modern requirements and modern needs far outstrip the ability of any private person to cope with the transport question. We want new and better ships, and the cost of shipbuilding and of running a ship is not a paying proposition to-day. I feel that not only shipping but other things have got beyond it. I feel there that the only remedy is either to increase the subsidies to a great extent or to nationalize the shipping along the West coast. I am not in the least opposed to private enterprise. I would not be sitting on the Liberal Benches if I were. But when industry grows to the stage that it becomes beyond the ability of a private individual to meet the difficulties, then there is, perhaps, a reason to consider nationalization. A nationalized industry can do things which no private enterprise can possible consider.

I keep in mind the idea of the hydroelectric scheme. In the island in which I live, we had an electrical scheme and it paid 6 per cent., but it dealt only with profitable enterprise. Then the Government nationalized electricity in the island, and they have extended it in a way that no private enterprise could do, although they lost £20,000 a year in carrying on that enterprise. That has also happened on two other islands, and the total loss will amount to £100,000 a year. Who bears that loss? The broad shoulders of the big cities or His Majesty's Treasury. Notwithstanding that loss, however, they have conferred a tremendous benefit on all the people in our island. But for this extension they would never have had electric light, they would never have had electricity for power and for heating when they could not get coal. It comes to the same with shipping. It would not pay, and the same broad shoulders would have to carry that loss. But it would confer a great benefit on all the people who live in these islands by increasing and improving the shipping, because they cannot carry on their industries owing to their inability to get transport. After all, the Government have nationalized the steamship traffic in the Clyde area. If they can nationalize it in the Clyde area, they can also nationalize it in the Arran area, and so confer a great benefit.

When it comes to shipping, we want to develop that, not so much north and south, since it runs up the Firths and the Minches; wherever possible, we want to develop shipping east and west. Take the trawler type vessels, capable of carrying a small cargo of thirty tons and twenty passengers over distances of ten, twelve or fifteen miles. If there were a whole network of these small east and west sailings it would confer a tremendous benefit on these people every day for at least seven months of the year. To wait for the steamer going north and south to turn round and come back again is too long and too slow a process. That will never pay. The islands of Canna, Rum, Eigg and Muck, for instance, are four islands that can get to the railway at Arisaig for all their goods but they have to wait for days for a steamer which goes right up north and right down again, and which on some occasions never comes at all. Therefore, I suggest that steamship travel should be developed.

That brings me to the pier question We must have piers before we have steamers. In the old days, when first I went to live in the island, it cost the laird £6,000 to build a pier. To-day it would cost £25,000 to build that pier, and it is beyond the means of any laird or any individual person. So the Government must take over the piers, because they are now beyond the means of the private individual. Having obtained the piers we must have good roads. There is many a township in the islands not connected with the main road; and townships should be connected to the main road. Moreover, on the main roads there should be good buses and good lorries running in connection with the small shipping services to the mainland. We must have that other traffic, otherwise we cannot get on. Ninety years ago there was not a single road in the island upon which I live, and all communication was carried out by means of ponies. There was not a single school, not a single pier. But the laird built the first pier, made the first road and established the first school. He was responsible, also, for putting on the first steamer service, and as a result of his work, the industry of the island throve and its prosperity increased. Tourists, too, were attracted. To-day the island is prosperous. I do not believe that there is a poor man on it, or one who is unemployed. That happy state of affairs has been brought about simply as a result of establishing and developing means of transport and travel. What has been done there could be done in all the islands. If the necessary transport were there for use, the whole story of the West coast of Scotland would be different.

New industries are needed if people are to be kept in the islands. What should the new industries be? Some say: "Make tourists ' keepsakes and things of that kind." That, I consider, would be no good; we want to develop in a natural way the prime industries of these areas. We must have freezing plants for the herrings. We want such plants in a good many of the islands so that the herrings can be frozen immediately after being caught, and shipped away fresh. Then there are great possibilities in the establishment of cheese factories. Such a factory was put up about eight years ago on the island where I live. Some idea of the progress which has been made will be gathered from these figures. Eight years ago the quantity of milk utilized in twelve months was 215,000 gallons. To-day the figure is 700,000 gallons. Take the case of another island—Islay. There is a cheese factory there, too, and the increase in output, in the last two years, has amounted to 80 per cent. In Coll, also, there is a cheese factory. In the old days we never had anything of that kind. Now, in addition to the development of industry in the ways that I have indicated, tourist traffic on our island has gone up substantially. Furthermore, ours is the first area in Great Britain to have complete T.T. herds, that is herds certified as completely free from tuberculosis. As I have mentioned, our cheese business is really a tremendous one.

Next I would refer to lobsters. We catch these in thousands off our shores. We catch them in creels, and then they have to be put in tanks hewn out of the rock and kept there till the steamer sails. Perhaps they may have to be kept for two or three days before they are sent off to London. Often, more than half the lobsters are dead when they reach their destination. What we want are collecting bases for lobsters, and an arrangement whereby they may be sent away immediately by seaplane. They could be flown direct from the islands to a seaplane landing base in the Thames. If that industry were developed you would be able to get lobsters in London, here, and elsewhere in perfectly fresh condition; and this would add appreciably to food supplies. Then look at freights. Freight charges are terrible now, and they impose a crippling burden on industry. When I send potatoes away I have to pay freight at the rate of 16s. a ton for the journey from the island on which I live to the shore of the mainland. When the potatoes arrive, they have to wait for a lorry; and for their transport by that vehicle I have to pay a further 7s. a ton. That is 23s. a ton freight charges. With a controlled price for potatoes no merchants will bother to come there. They all say that they cannot take our potatoes and deal with them at a profit when there are freight charges amounting to 23s. a ton.

The same applies to baled hay and baled straw. For those commodities there is a charge of £2 a ton. That is an extremely high price to pay for the transport of baled hay and baled straw going off the island. If the profit motive were removed, as it was in the case of electricity, we should have freights 25 per cent. to 30 per cent. cheaper than they are now; and that would make a tremendous difference to our agriculture and our means of living generally in the island. Another thing we want is water laid on in all the houses. Far too many houses have no water supply laid on, and no private individual can afford to pay for its installation to-day. For these reasons I think that we are justified in saying that if the Government want to keep these fine men and women in the islands they must do something for them. I would like to hear the Government spokesman say that they will produce a real policy for the Western Islands which will enable these poor peope to continue to live there. They cannot five on air, and they cannot live by bread alone. They have to work hard, and they must have industries provided for them. But we cannot make progress unless we get transport. So I ask the Government to give us some hope to-day that they will put forward a policy for these islands.

5.26 p.m.

LORD POLWARTH

My Lords, we have listened to two noble Lords who have a great deal more experience of island conditions than I have, and therefore I will confine myself to emphasising only two points, both of which were brought up by the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona. As I say, I am not speaking with anything like the same experience, but I have seen enough in the course of visits which I have paid to the islands and I have heard enough from those who live in them to know that this question of transport is the key to the whole subject of the prosperity of those areas. The two points which I wish to emphasise are, first, the importance of providing proper deep-water piers, and second, the development of air transport and in particular of air mail services. If your Lordships will allow me, I will give two examples taken from two islands, both of which are faced with similar problems though they are differently situated. First, I would speak of the island of Coll, off the West coast of Scotland, and, second, of Fair Isle, off the North coast.

The position in Coll is that there is a community with a flourishing or potentially flourishing agricultural industry. They have varying industries capable of development. There is, for example, the potential export of tuberculosis-free dairy stock to the mainland. There are other possibilities too. For example, Coll has great attractions as a tourist centre. It has most beautiful scenery, and I am told that the one hotel in the island is always completely booked up throughout the summer season. The snag comes with regard to the steamer services. They look very good on paper. Thrice a week—outward and back—there is a mail, passenger and freight service between the island and Oban. Once a week there is a freight service between the island and Glasgow.

But, again, there is a snag. There is no deep-water pier. Every single passenger, every single item of goods going to the island, has to undergo the process which Lord Strathcona has described. First, the passengers, or the goods, have to be lowered into a small boat alongside the steamer, and then they have to be ferried ashore. I need not tell your Lordships much more to illustrate the disadvantages of this landing process. If the weather is rough, it is often impossible to establish contact with the steamer, but, even when contact is established, if there is a lot of freight the steamer is delayed. The result is that the vessel arrives at Oban too late for connection to be made with the train and people who intend travelling south have to stay an extra night in the town. I could go on for a long time enumerating disadvantages of this sort, but, as I say, I do not think it is necessary for me to do so.

In Fair Isle the position with regard to transport is also extremely serious. Some of your Lordships may have seen an article on the subject which appeared recently in The Times. As in Coll, agriculture in Fair Isle is an important industry, though the island is not nearly so fertile: but there is a very valuable textile industry. The islanders produce jerseys and other textiles famous throughout the world. They produce the original genuine article for which there is a considerable demand. What is the transport position in Fair Isle? There is one boat, owned in this case by the islanders, which in normal times makes the journey once a week to the mainland of Shetland for mails, passengers and all freight. At the moment this boat is laid up, having been severely damaged in a storm, and the only contact with the outside world is by a drifter from Shetland once a fortnight. That is the position in regard to sea transport.

The other matter to which I wish to draw attention is air transport. I realise that a great many of the islands cannot possibly provide traffic for a regular service, although some of your Lordships may remember that before the war there was an inter-island air service in Orkney which went around from one island to the other. I am told the service was extremely well patronised, and in 1939 the men of Orkney were among the most air-minded in the country. The landing grounds and the aircraft are still there—I believe they are the identical aircraft used in 1939—but there are no signs of the service being restarted. I think there is the possibility for a similar service in Shetland for connecting the various islands, though there the problem of landing grounds is greater.

What is essential, however, is some form of air-ambulance service, to which reference has already been made. Very few of these islands have their own doctor. A number have only a nurse, as is the position in Fair Isle. I heard of two cases recently. One was of a woman on the island of Coll who had complications in childbirth and had to be taken to the mainland. She was first taken by car across the island, put in a boat and taken to the neighbouring island of Tiree. There she was removed by car to the airport and flown to Glasgow, where she was taken by ambulance to the Royal Infirmary. Two days later she died. There is no doubt that if an air ambulance had been available at Coll, her life might have been saved.

There was a case in the papers only last week of a woman in Mull who was taken ill while visiting Iona. She had to be conveyed by ambulance and boat to Oban. This took forty-eight hours and again the woman died—another case where an air ambulance might have saved a life. This applies to many of the islands. No doubt the fear of illness when out of reach of adequate medical aid is one of the causes which is driving people to leave the islands. Time is short and action must be taken. The populations of these islands are dwindling. The population of Coll in 1911 was 390, and it had dropped by last year to 210. In Fair Isle eighty years ago the population was 300; to-day it is 80. A position is being reached in some of the islands where there will soon not be enough young active men to man the essential services—mailboats, lifeboats and the like. When that position is reached, it is the finish of the islands.

I have indicated two methods by which transport services may be improved. It seems to me that there are three courses open to the Government with regard to the islands. First, they can leave them as they are, to continue with a dwindling population and a wasting economy until the point is reached at which it is impossible for them to go on. Secondly, they can take the drastic step of evacuating the population, as was in fact done in 1931 with St. Kilda. I do not question the rightness of that decision. St. Kilda is right outside the sphere of existing or possible communications in the islands. But that is a drastic step to take. Your Lordships have heard of the clearances in the last century. Many a time the iniquities of the clearances have been held up before us. If it came to a State clearance, I do not think that would be any more justifiable than the clearances by the landlords in the last century. Thirdly—and I think this is the right method—the Government can take vigorous action to restore prosperity to the islands. I know there are many difficulties, but this action is clearly beyond the resources of individual landowners and the local authorities. As the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, told us, the product of the rates in that part of the country is quite inadequate to meet the costs.

Some of your Lordships may ask if it is really worth it. Strictly economically, perhaps it is not, but I think this problem must be looked at from other angles than that of mere economy. The people of these islands, as citizens and taxpayers, have the right to live in the place of their choosing and to be provided with as many of the services and amenities of civilisation as can reasonably be provided. I think it is true to say that a prosperous island community is one of the greatest assets this country can have. Surely it is a grave indictment of our present society if, in spite of the march of progress, we are still unable to bring the benefits of progress to the people who live in these remote parts. I ask the Government to do everything in their power to restore and maintain the prosperity of the islands.

5.38 p.m.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

My Lords, we have covered a good deal of ground, but we must not forget that we spend a great deal of time considering the planning of our towns. That is no doubt very important but it is equally important that the resources of the whole area of this island and, I would put it, of the British Empire, should be used to the fullest degree. This problem provides one example of the disequilibrium in our planning over a number of years. During the past two hundred years the population of the Highlands has dropped from about one-quarter of the population of Scotland until to-day it is one-twentieth. That has been the result of two things—emigration and concentration in towns. I believe it is correct to say that during the last seventy years emigration from the Highlands has been about equal to the total population at the present time. That is a very big figure. It represents the measure of the difficulty which this Government has—and any Government of this country would have—at the present time.

This is a struggle between nature and man. There was a time when man found it worth while to go out to these outlying islands. Now, he is being driven back by the forces of nature. Already we have seen islands formerly occupied which he no longer finds possible to occupy, or at least which he has no longer the will to occupy. One example is St. Kilda, which was evacuated with the assistance of the Scottish Office. But the struggle is not going on without counter-attack. Certainly, within my knowledge, one small island halfway to St. Kilda has been re-occupied in the course of the last two or three years. I think that is representative of what the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, said—that the people themselves are struggling to re-establish their position.

I do not want to limit their scope. There is a notable economic advantage in the Western islands in their export of both cattle and sheep which to-day we must consider important. I have no doubt it is true, as Doctor Johnson said, that an eye accustomed to flowery pastures and waving harvests is astonished and repelled by the vast extent of hopeless sterility. I have no doubt that many Eastern county farmers would be somewhat discouraged if they were presented with the prospect of farming in the Western islands. The fact is that if these men who are now living there should go, it would be very difficult to find others to take their place, or who would be willing or able to work the land to as great advantage.

A further point which I do not think has been mentioned to-day is the personal service in the Armed Forces of the men who lived there. It is very considerable indeed. I could give several illustrations of that. One is that in the first forty years of the last century 10,000 men joined the British Army from the Isle of Skye alone. They provided something over fifty officers of the rank of Colonel, and over twenty of the rank of General. That is a substantial number for one island whose total population today is only 10,000. There are other examples which I could give, but I will not delay your Lordships with them. I am sure the Government will agree that the object is to maintain a healthy, strong race which can contribute to the welfare of the community, both by their personal service, and economically.

The people are there for two reasons. One is their love of the soil, which they consider, and are proud to consider, as their hereditary right—which is, indeed, the case. Secondly, they are there because they have that sense of independence, which I think we must all respect—an independence which, if I may say so, bodes ill for any leadership which goes to the point of compulsion or direction. It is not a character which makes them easily brought into co-operation. Their heritable rights were, if I may say so, brilliantly solved by the Crofters' Act mentioned by the noble Duke. I believe it was largely the work of the late Lord Sands, and resolved a long and difficult story of land tenure.

If it is agreed that a healthy and strong population is required, there are three essential needs. The first is economic. The crofters' position is basically agricultural, but he requires a side industry. Not only does he require a side industry—that is to say, a secondary industry—to which he can give his time, whether it be weaving, fishing or boat building, but, over and above that, a man who reaches mature age requires other economic work or he will leave the island. It is this departure from the islands during maturity of life that provides an un-balanced community, with, shall I say, too many old people and too many children, and not enough people of the middle and more vigorous years of life. It is largely to restore that balance that an economic outlet of some character is urgently required. I must congratulate the Scottish office upon the work they have done in regard to seaweed for chemical purposes. It is an important development, which may some day take the place of the kelp industry. I hope the noble Lord will have something to say as to the progress made in that matter.

The second point is that of amenity, which obviously includes houses and various amenities of life. I think something is done in the way of mobile cinemas, but I believe more could be dons in the way of houses. It is regrettable that the original grants made under the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, have been rescinded. I think they are now made under the Housing (Agricultural Population) Act, 1938. I would like to ask the noble Lord who is going to reply if he can state what are the terms under which assistance is provided by that Act. As I understand it, it is 50 per cent. of the replacement cost or £160, whichever is the less. It is manifestly clear that £160 in any circumstances cannot provide half a house at the present time.

I am informed that the method of obtaining assistance under this Act is so slow and cumbersome as to be calculated to discourage anyone from proceeding under it. I do not know whether the noble Lord has any evidence of that, but I suggest that these people, who are the only ones in the country who, in effect, build their own houses—are worthy of special consideration at a time when housing is so short and houses are so badly-needed. There is this further point. Before the war it was possible to supply certain materials—wood and cement—to assist the crofters in building their own houses. Is it possible to make available the supply of materials at the present time? There is one other point about amenity. In spite of what one noble Lord said, I submit that in isolated communities there are few greater benefits than the provision of electricity, with all the advantages connected with it in the form of the radio, and the facilities of life which it brings. With a slight acceleration of the development of the North Scotland Hydro-Electric Corporation, I think great encouragement would be given to the crofters to remain where they are at the present time.

Much has been said about transport, and I do not propose to recapitulate it. However, transport is obviously the main point. It does not matter whether it is transport to the Outer Hebrides, or beyond, transport is the basic trouble. I suggest, with great respect, that this problem should not be presented to the Government as an unending question of subsidy. I know what their answer will be, and so does everybody else. I suggest that what is required is a lowering of the fare, so as to increase the traffic. There is no doubt that traffic was better in former days. There is no doubt that there was a better steamer service in 1914 than there is to-day. Why is that? I submit, very respectfully, that the statement made in the Lewis Association Report is a very serious one. It says: To-day the steamer service is slower, less frequent and more costly than it was in 1914. If I may quote a specific example (I have not been able to check this with the timetable of 1914), I may say that I am informed that there was a passenger steamer which crossed to Lochmaddy twice a day in 1914, whereas to-day there is one three times a week.

I would also like to mention the question of roads. The road grant of 1935, which I believe was about £6,000,000 for the Highlands as a whole, was a tremendous boon. Roads were built up, and in many ways it completely altered the life of the country. While there are a great many regions which have bad roads, there are others which have no roads at all. The Hilary Report of 1945 spoke of forty-five districts in the Island with no roads at all; and that does not include Orkney and Shetland, where 133 districts were reported. I think the quality of the roads built is better than is absolutely necessary, and many of the outlying districts would be satisfied with something along which one could get a cart. I asked the noble Lord for certain information in regard to one district, which I know has been clamouring for a road for a very long time; they have been settled twenty-five years by the Department of Agriculture and have no road. If the noble Lord can say anything about that, I shall be glad. I imagine he will probably say that it is the intention one day to put a road there but it is not immediately practicable.

I have mentioned roads and steamers. There is one other point about steamers to which I would like to draw attention, because it is, after all, a Government responsibility. I have here the Sailing Bill of McCallum, Orme & Co., and I would like to draw the attention of His Majesty's Government to the conditions of carriage, because this is a responsibility which will come to them. This company, naturally enough, repudiated the idea that they were common carriers. They say further that all goods are carried at owner's risk—that is, perhaps, natural enough—but they also state that they are not liable for theft, robbery, loss or pilferage by persons in the employment of the ship owner. That seems to be carrying it rather far. Further, they say that they will not be liable for breakages which occur from any act of neglect or mistake of the master, mariners, engineers, or crew. That is carrying the clause of liability rather far, and I hope His Majesty's Government—who now, through MacBrayne's, have a controlling interest—will keep that point in mind.

I would like to say a word on the flying services. We were told, perhaps two years or more ago, that air services were going to be developed with great energy, imagination and initiative. We all know that that has not happened. We know that we have not seen that development which was promised us. Events have happened to the contrary. I should add, of course, that for various reasons very special things were promised to Scotland, more than to the rest of the country. There have been disturbing rumours in the papers this week to which I must draw attention. So far as I know, the men who were engaged immediately in pioneering the routes of the Outer Islands have now—or so the rumour says—been discharged, or are being discharged, by B.E.A. Mr. Nicholson has gone, Captain Barclay I am told is going, Mr. Cummings is going, and so also is Captain Fresson. If the noble Lord can deny that, or say that some statement will be made, I shall be grateful, but I assure your Lordships that these matters are causing considerable concern. The pioneering work they were doing was important, and the Hilary Report, which was made in 1939, said: We heard many expressions of appreciation and praise for the manner in which these air services are carried out. I do not think those remarks will be heard to-day, because on all hands there is a feeling that the air lines are being run by a distant bureaucracy in which the local men are powerless pawns and cannot do much to help. That is the way in which it is being operated now, and I do not believe it is in the interests of any airline that it should continue on those lines.

I should particularly like to stress the fact that nothing has been done in the way of using water—namely, in using flying boats or seaplanes. It is obvious that on the West coast of Scotland, as also in the Orkneys and Shetlands, there are large numbers of places which are particularly well suited to such operations, where it is quite impossible to use land planes. Why has nothing been done before? There is nothing revolutionary or even new about it. It is something which is well known, and I am sorry to see that no effort of any kind seems to have been made to introduce these services, which could be done without great difficulty. I would point out that the population of these areas are essentially part of the great mosaic of the British people. We were discussing this subject on a much wider canvas last week, but this matter is essentially a part of the same picture, although perhaps a small part. None the less, I submit that it is an important part, and one worthy of careful consideration.

There are three points I would like to emphasise. The first is transport, the second is amenity, and the third is the economy of life. I suggest to the noble Lord that the Hilary Report brought out one matter which is not without importance to-day. It suggested that there should be a Highland Commissioner, and I would like to ask the noble Lord whether he would consider the appointment of an Island Commissioner. There are to-day a large number of big corporations and Departments centralised either in Edinburgh or London, which have no immediate tie-up with the locality. These corporations or Departments enter deeply into the life of the people who live there. If I may give a list, I would remind you that there are the Transport Commission, British European Airways, the Hydro Electric Board, the Forestry Commission, the Herring Board, the Board of Trade, the Department of Agriculture, and the Ministry of Food. No doubt the noble Lord has had to draw information from all those Departments in preparing his reply. I wonder if he has found it easy to get from so many different sources all the information he has required, because any difficulty he has had is, of course, multiplied a thousand-fold for those living further from the scene.

I will not detain your Lordships any longer, except to say this. If His Majesty's Government can state that it is their definite intention to maintain the population on the outer fringe because they think they are worth while, it will give a great deal of satisfaction. It will give much more satisfaction if they can state the effective action they are prepared to take to carry out that policy, and can further say that they do not in any way regard the Outer Islands as an unknown or frightening burden which they do not know how to carry.

5.56 p.m.

LORD MORRISON

My Lords, I think a stranger to Britain, listening to the debate here during the past two hours, would have thought it rather a wonderful thing that your Lordships' House should have devoted a large part of this evening to a friendly and helpful discussion of the well-being of a small number of sturdy and excellent people who live in an area so graphically described by the noble Lord who initiated this debate as the "Edge of the World." The noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, sympathized with me that I had never had the pleasure of going there. I was reading a guide book, which was the nearest I could get to being there. That guide book invited visitors to visit "the land where time stands still." If that description is correct, then certainly your Lordships have done something this afternoon to try to get some modern methods into those islands.

It is obviously impossible for me to cover all the points or answer all the questions which have been put to me this afternoon, and I do not think your Lordships would desire me to do so, but if I omit to deal with any questions about which your Lordships are keen I will see that they are considered and that a reply is sent. I think the best answer I could give would be by trying to draw what the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, called the picture that he set out to paint, and which has been so well continued by other speakers in this interesting debate. I would like to try to complete that picture by describing shortly what the present position is. Before I do so, however, I want to accept the challenge—I thought it was a challenge—from the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, to state briefly what the Government policy is. I can do that in almost one single sentence. It is no part of the policy of the Government to evacuate the small islands off the Scottish coast. On the contrary we are, like noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, anxious to see these island communities more firmly established as part of our national life.

The debate to-day has given evidence of the great diversity of the problems facing these islands. I am sure that noble Lords who have spoken in this debate will not expect me to be in a position to propound final solutions to all the problems that they have raised. Before going on to deal with some of the specific matters raised, however, I should like to refer briefly to some of the things which have been or are now being done. In the first place, I would remind your Lordships that in January of last year the Secretary of State appointed an Advisory Panel on the Highlands and Islands to advise him on the carrying out of concerted plans for promoting the best economic use of resources and capacity in the Highlands and Islands. That Panel have already made a number of important and useful recommendations. I think the Panel includes the Members of Parliament for all the Highland constituencies, as well as representatives of the county councils and other authorities; and they are continually addressing themselves to matters of the kind raised to-day.

As has been stated over and over again, one of the chief keys to the Highland problem is transport. Everyone agrees that the provision of reasonable transport facilities is fundamental to the wellbeing of the islands. The question of sea communications naturally comes first. This involves the provision, improvement and maintenance of piers, and the provision of steamer services. The Highland Advisory Panel have recognised the importance of these matters, and the transport group which they have set up have been making a systematic and thorough review of the pier needs in the Highlands and Islands. Meantime, the more urgent cases are not being neglected. A number of island piers are at present under discussion between the Department of Agriculture and the county councils concerned. In view of existing restrictions on capital expenditure and current shortages of steel and timber, it will unfortunately not be possible to go ahead in the immediate future as quickly as we would all like, but every effort will be made to have the most urgent needs met.

In the case of the island of Foula, to which the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, referred, the Department of Agriculture in 1946 offered a grant of 75 per cent. towards the cost of extending the pier; and, as the noble Lord himself indicated, this work is now being undertaken. The question of a further grant for the provision of landing facilities and a boat-shed is now being sympathetically considered. Some rearrangement of the steamer services to the Western Isles is being effected as a result of the taking over by Messrs. MacBrayne of the services which were formerly run by another company. For many years these services have been subsidised by the Government, and the amount of the subsidy (in the current financial year it is estimated to amount to £166,000, in addition to a payment of about £38,000 by the Post Office for the conveyance of mails) is an indication of the importance which the Government attach to keeping the rates charged to a reasonable level.

Practical steps are also being taken to effect improvements to the Western Isles steamer service. A faster and better steamer has been provided for the Stornoway run, and the company are now going ahead with the re-engining of other vessels. The services to Orkney and Shetland continue to function without any general provision for a subsidy. The former service to Fair Isle was interrupted by the damage suffered last year by the vessel "Good Shepherd" which made the trip. The Department of Agriculture are now making arrangements to assist the owner to have the vessel repaired and to resume service. Meantime, a fortnightly return trip, based on Lerwick, is maintained with the aid of a grant of £55 to £60 per trip for the conveyance of mails. There is also a weekly mail service from Foula to Shetland, provided by a local vessel—

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

Is that the open boat?

LORD MORRISON

I presume that it is the open boat, but I understand that it is specially built for that purpose. This vessel also operates under contract with the Post Office for the conveyance of mails. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, raised the question of facilities for the transport of cattle. I will bring this matter to the notice of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland so that he may examine whether any improvement in this respect can be effected.

After transport, housing is perhaps the most vital necessity, and one of the earliest recommendations of the Highland Advisory Panel was in favour of further assistance to crofters for the provision, improvement or rebuilding of their houses. The amounts of the grants available have been increased since the war, and it is proposed to extend the operation of the grants until 1953. The Department of Agriculture loan scheme, which was suspended during the war, has been revived. The increased level of building costs, however, has made further assistance necessary, and my right honourable friend is now seeking power to make grants to crofters towards the cost of erection, improvement, or rebuilding of their dwelling houses, and steadings—

LORD BALFOUR of BURLEIGH

That is the whole point. On what terms? Is there any hope of modification of the terms? Will the Government insist on the points about full water supply, internal sanitation, and so forth? What we want to see is a modified grant for modified conditions.

LORD MORRISON

I will send the noble Lord an answer to that question if he will allow me. I have not got it by me.

It has been suggested that there should be a modified standard for houses in these remote islands. The Government have felt, however, that since it is their general policy to bring the standard of amenities available in these islands up to a level which will ensure the maintenance of these communities it would be unwise to accept the proposition that the standard there should be lower than elsewhere. They hope, therefore, that the new grants scheme which I have mentioned will enable the islanders to provide themselves with houses which comply with the accepted modern standards. With housing there must be considered the provision of water supplies and drainage facilities. A large programme of water supplies and drainage work to be undertaken in the rural areas has been submitted by Scottish local authorities. To date, works estimated to cost £1,975,190 have been provisionally selected for grant. Thirty-eight island water schemes have gone a stage further and have been the subject of firm offers of 85 per cent. grant, and in the existing shortage of labour and materials the question of when these schemes can be put in hand is at present under active consideration.

An important factor in retaining and developing the smaller communities in the Highlands and Islands will be the spread of the supply of electric current throughout the area. The waters of the larger islands, such as Skye, Lewis, Mull, Islay, and Jura, are possible sources of hydroelectric power but, meanwhile, arrangements are being made to distribute electricity from Diesel engine stations. This is also being done in smaller islands, where no potential water power is available. Distribution schemes have already been approved for the larger islands including the mainlands of Orkney and Shetland, Skye, Arran, Islay, and Lewis, and also for the small islands of Seil and Luing, while schemes are being considered for both North and South Uist and for Mull, Iona, Colonsay, Coll, and Tiree—

THE DUKE OF MONTROSE

May I ask if the Government have considered the question of driving engines by gas from peat, instead of buying oil, which means dollars? It has been done most successfully in many places, and it seems to me that that is a method that should be tried or examined by the Government.

LORD MORRISON

I could not answer that question off-hand, but I will certainly bring it to the notice of the Department concerned, though I have no doubt that it has been tried already.

It would be wrong to omit a brief reference to the medical services, which have been developed with the aid of the Highlands and Islands Medical Services Fund. The advent of the National Health Service will make no real difference to the general practitioner service, except that the patients here, as elsewhere, will no longer have to pay even a modified fee. It will become the local health authorities' duty to provide a nursing service, though they will normally continue to use the existing voluntary bodies. The hospital service will become the responsibility of the Northern Regional Hospital Board, with head-quarters at Inverness, and the North-Eastern Board, at Aberdeen, covering Orkney and Shetland. It will be the Boards' duty to develop the existing service, and they will take over the projects at present under consideration, such as a new hospital for Shetland and maternity units at Kirkwall and Inverness. Air ambulance services are already available from most of the larger islands, and these will be developed as and when airfields and suitable aircraft become available. The extension of those services to some of the islands which can provide only limited landing facilities raises the question of the type of aircraft to be used. This matter is being further discussed at present. In passing, I would also mention that the Scottish Education Department, the Scottish Council of Social Service and the education authorities in many parts of the Highlands are giving active consideration to the question of setting up community centres, village halls and other facilities of this type for the Highlands and Islands areas. Another development in this particular field has been the setting up of a Highlands and Islands Film Guild, under whose auspices regular film shows, combining entertainment and education, are provided in many parts of the Highlands and Islands.

The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, has made special reference to the island of Foula. I have mentioned the present mail-boat service to the island and the repairs to the pier which are being carried out with the assistance of the Department of Agriculture. The noble Lord has also suggested that there is a need on the island for winter occupations, such as knitting and weaving. These industries are of considerable importance in the Shetlands, and it is natural to expect that, despite their isolation from the mainland, the people of Foula would be willing to participate in that work. Any suggestions put forward for assisting these or other industries in the island will be most sympathetically examined to see if anything can be done to help. With regard to the provision of machinery to cut and carry peat on the island, it seems doubtful whether peat cutting on the scale suitable for the one hundred or so inhabitants of Foula would lend itself to mechanization in any way. As to the need for lime for the soil, I need hardly say that Foula, like any other area, is eligible for the 50 per cent. subsidy which is paid by the Government on lime for agricultural land.

The noble Lord referred to illegal trawling. The Government are fully alive to the importance of preventing it. The fishery protection fleet, which during the war years and for some time thereafter was on naval service, is now in commission again and, indeed, has been strengthened. Special attention will be given to the areas to which the noble Lord has referred. On the problems of Foula in general, I should add that I understand that some members of the Highlands Advisory Panel will be visiting the Orkneys and Shetlands in the near future, and it may be possible for them to include Foula in their itinerary. I will certainly see that the noble Lord's observations on the island are passed on to them. I may add that any influence which I have will be used in favour of a visit to Foula in the near future. The noble Lord ended with a good-humoured tilt at nationalization, which was afterwards taken up by the noble Duke, Lord Montrose. It was not so much a tilt at it as a demand for further nationalization. I can only say that the shipping services have not been nationalized. Those to Orkney and Shetland are not even subsidized. The special question of a boat for Foula will, of course, be further considered, in view of the noble Lord's representations.

I welcome the return to the fold of the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, after so many years' absence. I hope that the experience which he had when he was in the position that I now occupy was not the cause of his staying away for so long afterwards; that is rather a fearsome thought to me. I appreciate his tribute to the telephone service and to the efficiency of the workmen. I will see that that tribute is brought to their notice. I have already dealt generally with the questions of shipping services, piers and air ambulance services. I realise the importance of the points he has made about the inter-relationship between the provision of piers, the speed and efficiency of the steamer service and the road services radiating from piers. All these together form what has been described as the "Road to the Isles." I understand that the Highland Panel Survey, to which I have referred, is designed to work out the basis of a properly integrated service.

Coming to the question of lights, I will certainly convey to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State the noble Lord's suggestion that he should consult with the Northern Lighthouse Commissioners about the provision of new or better lights where required. There has, I am assured, already been some consultation with the Commissioners with regard to particular lights, and I am sure that the suggestions made by the noble Lord will be investigated. The noble Lord cheered me up considerably by his warm invitation that I should pay my first visit to the Western Islands. I was only sorry that he qualified it later by placing a ban on August and September and by inviting me to spend New Year's Day there. However, before the next debate on this subject in your Lordships' House, if I am still in my present position, I hope to be able to say that I have visited those places. Alternatively, I would invite the noble Lord to occupy my post temporarily for a few months, while I go to stay in the Western Islands.

The noble Duke, Lord Montrose, made what I thought was an excellent and practical speech. The noble Duke will appreciate that I have no time to deal in detail with the question of herrings, cheese and lobsters—all of which points he raised. However, I have a long memorandum on the study of the methods of herring fishing. It may surprise the noble Duke to know that this has been my principal hobby for a great many years, although I do not speak about it publicly. However, out of consideration for your Lordships' time, I will not deal with this question now. If the noble Duke will allow me, I will send him the latest information about quick-freezing and other methods of marketing herring that are being experimented with and applied in some parts of Scotland.

The ownership of piers in the Highlands and Islands presents a picture of great diversity. Shipping companies, Government Departments, the British Transport Commission, county councils, town councils, local pier trusts and private owners are all involved. The Highlands Advisory Panel are anxious to see that proper provision is made for the maintenance of all essential piers, and the investigations which they are pursuing are designed with that object in view. With regard to the question of ministerial responsibility, the piers formerly owned by the railway companies come within the general sphere of the Minister of Transport. The Secretary of State is responsible for the administration of the Harbours, Piers and Ferries (Scotland) Act, 1937, under which local authorities may take over marine works. He also administers the Congested Districts (Scotland) Act, 1897, under which he is empowered to give grants to local authorities for the provision or improvement of piers in the seven Highland counties. It is true that in recent years a number of privately owned piers on the Firth of Clyde have been closed. Some of them are outside the scope of "congested districts," and therefore do not qualify for assistance under the 1897 Act.

With the improvement of roads and road services, it may not be necessary to keep in existence all the piers which were required a generation ago. The loss of some of these piers may be regrettable from the local point of view, but with costs of maintenance and reconstruction as high as they are to-day—as the noble Lord himself pointed out—it is understandable that the owners may be unable to keep up some of the less remunerative piers. No powers are available under which grants can be made to private owners, but where a pier is needed it is open to the local authority to act under the Harbours, Piers and Ferries (Scotland) Act, 1937, and, if the pier is within the congested districts, to apply to the Secretary of State for a construction or improvement grant.

The noble Lord, Lord Polwarth emphasized transport delays. His speech brought to my mind the last time I landed at Prestwick Airport, having flown over from North America. It took me exactly two hours longer to get from Prestwick to my home in London than it did from North America to Prestwick. The British European Airways Corporation are at present operating, as the noble Lord knows, a number of scheduled services to those Scottish Islands equipped with suitable airfields. These services, some of which are maintained by D.H. 89 aircraft and some by Dakotas, cover the main centres of population in the islands, but because services with the small D.H. 89 aircraft are necessarily uneconomic, and the traffic is not sufficient to fill the Dakotas throughout the winter and summer, the operations involve a considerable loss. Any extension of the present services must, I am afraid, await an improvement in the general economic situation. I understand that it is the policy of the Postmaster-General to develop the use of air services for the conveyance of mail between the Scottish mainland and the islands to the fullest possible extent, consistent with reasonable financial justification. Unless any unforeseen obstacles arise the position should soon be reached in which the benefits of air conveyance of mail are enjoyed by all the Western Islands which are served by the regular commercial air services of the Corporation. I agree that the advent of helicopters—a point which Lord Strathcona also raised—may well have a decisive effect on the pattern of the Island services. But these possibilities lie in the future. Helicopter types in production to-day are small single-engined aircraft, with high operating costs, unsuitable for regular passenger-carrying services. The institution of scheduled helicopter services, or helicopter ambulance services, flying over the sea would, I am afraid, be premature at the moment.

Finally, I come to the remarks of the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk. In regard to the rumours of discharges of civil aviation personnel, I regret that I have no information. So far as I know, they have appeared in some newspapers, but I cannot answer his question, and the Department concerned is not represented here at the moment. The question of giving financial assistance for the construction of a road to link the crofting townships of Lochportain and Cheesebay with the main road in North Uist is at present under active consideration. That is the way in which I will put it, and the noble Earl is sufficient a politician to understand what that means. The noble Earl continued the debate on the same high level. He reinforced that the British race in these areas are well worth preserving, and emphasised their independence by what Robert Burns called the glorious privilege of being independent.

With regard to the Scottish Seaweed Research Association, financed from the Development Fund up to 90 per cent. of their expenditure, they are actively pursuing their survey and development work. They have already established that there exist seaweed supplies necessary to maintain in Scotland a considerable seaweed industry, and they are now tackling the question of the economic harvesting of the weed. That is the key to the future of this industry—whether it can be economically harvested. The noble Earl's suggestion of an Island Commissioner I will pass on to the appropriate Department. I have delayed your Lordships a long time in trying to cover some parts of this debate, which might profitably have gone on for many days. In a debate such as we have had, and interesting as it has been, it has been possible to cover only the fringe of the many subjects raised; but I have done my best. I would like to conclude by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh for having raised this Motion. By doing so, he has initiated a first-class debate. The number of helpful and constructive suggestions put forward, and the general desire of those of your Lordships who have spoken to do their best to raise the standard of living and to preserve the well-being and amenities of the people who live on what Lord Balfour called "the edge of the world," make this a memorable occasion.

6.26 p.m.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Strathcona, there was once a time when I had the privilege of answering for Scottish affairs in your Lordships' House. My noble friend who has replied may agree that I have reason to feel some sympathy with him when I venture to tell you that I was responsible for piloting through your Lordships' House, among other things, the Scottish Churches Bill. I was exposed to a barrage of a somewhat different kind, but one—I can assure my noble friend—which was no less abstruse than many of the points which we have fired at him to-day. I would like to thank noble Lords who supported this Motion. I was interested to hear my noble friend the Duke of Montrose so warmly support nationalisation. My noble friend kept on saying that the Government ought to take over all the piers. I wondered whether it was a further reference to some new proposals for reforming your Lordships' House!

I would like to express great gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, for the reply which he has given us, and in particular the explicit declaration that he gave on the question of policy. The noble Lord said that it is no part of Government policy to evacuate these small islands; that, on the contrary, there is anxiety to see the island communities once more firmly established as part of our national life. Nothing could be more explicit, and nothing could give greater satisfaction to the communities who will read this debate. Secondly, on the question of measures of help, the noble Lord could not have been more helpful. He promised us certain things and he indicated certain measures which are to be taken. I would like to underline one point. In regard to cattle all he committed himself to—and it was pretty cautious—was that his right honourable friend would see whether any improvement could be made in the cattle-boat. He did not refer to my suggestion that they should apply to the Admiralty. I hope they will give the Admiralty a chance to look through their stocks to see if they can produce something. I am sure we can enlist the interest of the Lords of the Admiralty—seafaring men as I suppose they all are—and if that can be done I am sure they will do what they can to help.

On one point only was I disappointed, and that was in regard to the noble Lord's reply about housing. I do not know whether he will take it as a compliment or the reverse, but I thought it was a typical Civil Service reply. We were told that it was important that the housing should be brought up to the accepted modern standards. We were told that the policy was to bring the standard of housing in Foula up to a level which would ensure the maintenance of the community. If the Government try to bring all the houses in Foula up to what they call the accepted modern standards, that will be just the way to ensure the elimination of the community in Foula. I beg the noble Lord to bring his influence to tear on his right honourable friend to induce him to consider seriously whether the administrative difficulties of having a separate standard for these remote places cannot be overcome. Administration is made for the people; the people are not made for the administration. I earnestly implore the noble Lord, knowing, as I do, that we have his good will, to try his best to see whether these Civil Service bureaucrats cannot be made to show a little more flexibility in this matter. May I add that I would not like it to be thought, because of any warmth I may have shown just now, that I am not conscious of the great trouble which the noble Lord has taken, or ungrateful for the substantial promises which he has made? I am sure that I am echoing the feelings of all my noble friends when I say to him: "Thank you very much." I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.