Lords Sitting of 25 February 1948

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

VISCOUNT HYNDLEY.
John Scott, Baron Hyndley, G.B.E., having been created Viscount Hyndley, of Meads in the County of Sussex—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
LORD MACKINTOSH OF HALIFAX.
Sir Harold Vincent Mackintosh, Baronet, having been created Baron Mackintosh of Halifax, of Hethersett in the County of Norfolk—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
LORD DOUGLAS OF KIRTLESIDE.
Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir William Sholto Douglas, G.C.B., M.C., D.F.C., having been created Baron Douglas of Kirtleside, of Dornock in the County of Dumfries—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.

MANUFACTURE OF OMNIBUSES.
2.40 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords: I beg to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether they can now state the number of omnibuses or omnibus chassis for use in the United Kingdom which can be manufactured during 1948 in order to avoid conditions in this industry becoming absolutely chaotic, resulting in the discharge of workers, closing down of factories, rising costs of manufacture and consequent loss of orders for export.]
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (VISCOUNT HALL): My Lords, as announced in the White Paper on Capital Investment in 1948, the number of omnibuses to be supplied to the home market this year will be limited to 6,000. As I stated in my reply to the noble Earl on February 10, the problems involved have recently been considered as a matter of urgency by my right honourable friends the Ministers of Transport and Supply. Decisions have now been reached, and individual manufacturers will shortly be informed of their detailed programme.
EARL HOWE: May I ask the noble Viscount whether he is aware that the steel allocation for this industry amounts to 46.5 per cent. of its present actual production?
VISCOUNT HALL: As is the case in the allocation of steel for all industries, the allocation of steel for this industry has been a matter of serious consideration by His Majesty's Government. I regret to say that this is not the only industry which is suffering as a result of a reduction in the steel allocation.
EARL HOWE: It is really intended to cut production by 54 per cent.

LABRADOR SETTLEMENT FIRE.
LORD CALVERLEY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask His Majesty's Government the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether newspaper reports are correct that part of the settlement of Makkovic, Labrador, was destroyed by fire on January 27; whether the native children's quarters were destroyed; whether any lives were lost and what steps have been taken by the Labrador Administration to relieve distress.]
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT ADDISON): My Lords, first reports of the fire at Makkovic in Labrador were apparently exaggerated. The fire destroyed the main building of the Moravian Mission Station, consisting of the living quarters, school, church and some small outhouses. Food stocks and other supplies, and the personal belongings of the missionaries and of thirty-six pupils,

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were also lost. No damage was caused to the settlement, which consists of nine families, and there was no loss of life. The children who were at school at the Mission Station have now been sent to their homes elsewhere in Labrador. Immediately after the fire, food, clothing and medical supplies were flown from Goose Bay airport by the Canadian and United States Air Forces, whose ready help is much appreciated by the Newfoundland Government. Ample provisions of food and other essentials were later sent by dog-team from Hopedale. The Governor of Newfoundland has assured my right honourable friend that there is no distress at Makkovic.
LORD CALVERLEY: May I thank the noble Viscount for that very satisfactory reply?

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
RURAL DISTRICT OF AMERSHAM ORDER;
COUNTY BOROUGH OF WIGAN ORDER;
URBAN DISTRICT OF HALSTEAD ORDER;
URBAN DISTRICT OF ORPINGTON ORDER.
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, I beg to move that these Orders be approved.
Moved, That the Orders made under the Act by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section one of the Act to the said areas, be approved.—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE NEW FOREST.
2.48 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH rose to ask His Majesty's Government, what action they have taken or propose to take to implement the recommendations of the New Forest Committee; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I think it would be appropriate if I conformed to the usage of your Lordships' House and declared my special interest in the Motion which stands upon the Order Paper in my name and which I now beg to move. First of all, I was a member of the New Forest Committee who made this investigation and are responsible for the production of the Report. Secondly, I enjoy the great good fortune, which I share with many members of
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your Lordships' House, of living practically within the perambulations of the New Forest. It was a special pleasure to me to serve upon this Committee because it allowed me to enjoy the privilege—a privilege which will be appreciated to the full by many noble Lords—of serving under the Chairmanship of the Right Honourable Harold Baker (who will be remembered by many noble Lords) who was, until succeeded by the noble Lord, Lord Simonds, Warden of Winchester College. To the Chairman must be given the major credit for a Report which is not only a literary achievement but, if I may say so, a constructive effort to set right a number of things that for centuries have been wrong.
There cannot be many members of your Lordships' House who at one time or another have not travelled through some part of the 93,000 acres that make up the New Forest, which has been called a miraculous survival of pre-Norman England. I feel that I can easily secure your sympathetic interest if I call to your minds that wonderful vista from the high road between Stony Cross and Picket Post, right over towards the ancient City of Salisbury, or, on a summer evening, towards the setting sun over the Dorset heaths, or that marvellous view between Brockenhurst and Beaulieu across the Solent to the Isle of Wight. If any of your Lordships have been tempted to stray off the beaten track and to admire the cathedral-like dignity and grandeur of some of the stands of timber, without parallel in Europe, you will agree with me that the New Forest is a great national heritage. But if it is to be preserved and developed upon the right lines, as it must be, drastic action will have to be taken in certain directions. Is it too much to ask that, even amidst the stress of our present times, some thought and some legislative time can be given to carrying out the recommendations which this Committee make?
Ever since the days of Canute, the New Forest has had a turbulent and stormy history. I doubt whether any tract of land in this country—certainly no forest—has been the subject of so many investigations by so many Commissions and departmental and Select Committees, all charged with resolving the age-old quarrel between the commoners and the Crown. The New Forest Committee were charged with succeeding where all others had

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failed. Whether or not the recommendations which the Committee make will bring success, history alone will prove; but, if they are successful, it may well be that peace will come to the New Forest—and that (as the Report itself says) its advent will mean that one of the chief amenities of forest life will disappear!The terms of reference of this Committee were wide. They were:
" To investigate the state and condition of the New Forest and, having due regard to existing rights and interests, to recommend such measures as they consider desirable and necessary for adjusting the Forest to modern requirements."
I would particularly direct your Lordships' attention to the last words—
" which they consider desirable and necessary for adjusting the Forest to modern requirements."
I have said that the New Forest is a great national heritage and, after the proper interests of the commoners have been met and appropriately dealt with, and the amenity has been secured, there must be considered the interests of the 47,000,000 people of this country whose heritage it is. The Committee take the view that a prerequisite to planning the Forest as it should be planned, protecting the rightful interests of all, is the reconstitution of the governing authority. The New Forest is governed at the present time by an Act of 1877, and quite apart from faults in its initial drafting, this seventy-year-old enactment has, by modern standards, become outmoded and out-of-date. In fact, it would be true to say that no advance could have been made in the Forest over these last seventy years without causing a breach of its provisions.
The governing authority, the Court of Verderers, was originally brought into being to protect the interests of the Crown against the commoners, and it was reconstituted by the Act of 1877 and charged with the duty of protecting the interests of the commoners against encroachment by the Crown. In recent years the verderers have taken a far wider view of their responsibilities. That Statute still governs their powers, constitution and the method of election. The first are too narrowly drawn, and the second and the third are antiquated, because the qualification for a verderer of the New Forest is the ownership of seventy-five acres of land carrying with it rights of common. Today, my Lords, there are only sixteen
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persons of both sexes, out of a total of 2,000 commoners, who can meet that qualification; and the method of election is by the now discredited principle of the open poll. The recommendations which the Committee make cover the reconstitution of the Court of Verderers in order to allow a proper representation of all interested parties, and also for the election to be carried on by secret ballot. The recommendations also deal with finance. This unfortunate body has been almost bankrupt from its inception. It has been saved from complete insolvency only by unexpected windfalls from some unexpected quarters. The strict legality of some of them, to say the least, is open to doubt. The responsibility for providing the future finance of the Council of Verderers, as it is proposed that it shall be called, is securely placed upon the three beneficiaries, the commoners, the Forestry Commission and the public.
At this stage I think it would be appropriate if I went over one or two of the recommendations. I do not want to weary your Lordships by going through them all—some are of principle, many are of detail—because my object in putting this Motion upon the Order Paper is to press His Majesty's Government to take action, either immediate or as soon as may be, on many of the recommendations. Some of the others, I realise, will have to be the result of protracted negotiation. There is one recommendation which must concern the whole of this country and which, especially at the present time, lifts the New Forest above mere parochial interest. I have already mentioned the necessity of conserving the proper rights of the commoners; and I have also stressed the necessity of preserving the amenities. But there is one outstanding requirement to-day, and that is to increase the timber production of this country. Out of this vast area of 93,000 acres, by the Statute of 1877, only 18,000 acres can be enclosed for the purpose of timber production, with the provision that only 16,000 acres can be enclosed at any one time.
During the 1914–18 war, about 8,000,000 cubic feet, or 230,000 tons, of timber were felled in the New Forest. During the last war, 12,500,000 cubic feet, or 440,000 tons, of timber were felled—saving, as your Lordships will readily appreciate, 440,000 tons of shipping space. That was no mean contribution to the effort of a nation at war.

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I think it only right for me to say that great credit is due to the Deputy Surveyor of the New Forest and his staff for the fact that such a gigantic amount of timber was felled without any detriment to the amenities of the Forest, because, as your Lordships will have noticed when driving through the Forest, you can hardly see where that timber has come from. But our requirement of timber to meet our needs as a country does not stop at the end of a war. Our present requirement is prodigious, and your Lordships will be able to measure it when I tell you that at the present time we are having to import 80 per cent. of our mining timber, including 90 per cent. of the pit props required in the mining industry.
Expert evidence was given to the Committee that an additional 20,000 acres should be brought under timber. The Ministry of Agriculture gave evidence to the effect that there were 10,000 acres in the New Forest unfit for grazing. Local planning authorities pleaded for the planting of shelter belts and screens on the eastern side of the Forest, adjacent to Southampton Water, made necessary by the spew and sprawling of the urbanization of that area in some of the worst forms of industrial development that this country has known. The Committee recommend than an extra 5,000 acres of the Forest should be afforested. They support the planning authorities' suggestion that these belts should also be planted. I am well aware that this immediately affects the interests of the commoners, that it impinges upon what they would call their proper rights. The Committee gave very careful thought to this matter, because it is the focal point of the centuries-old quarrel between the commoners and the Crown.
With your Lordships' permission I should like to read a paragraph in the Report which deals with this particular point. It is in precise language and I think that your Lordships should know exactly what the Committee say. Dealing with the opposition which the recommendation which I have just outlined will arouse, the Committee say:
" The real reason for their opposition and few of them made any concealment "—
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this refers to the commoners—
" was a determination that the Forestry Commission should on no account get an inch more ground for enclosure. It was put to us by one witness in this way: ' We have been fighting to get back the land which was taken from us centuries ago: the Act of 1877 gave us what we have been fighting for: we call it our Charter: now if we give the power to the Forestry Commission to take what they want we shall be put back to where we started.' In answer to this it must again be repeated that the premise to this statement is wrong. The Open Forest does not belong and never has belonged to the Commoners. Their right is not to the land but to what they can take from it through the mouths of their animals. That is an ownership real and valuable, and one which they and all concerned with the Forest should defend to the utmost. They should remember however that others have interests in the land as well as they and that these equally must be defended. As regards the second point the witness spoke more justly and we say plainly that there can be no return to the position before 1877. On his third point we have already stated that the decision cannot be left to the Forestry Commission and we have provided adequate safeguards in entrusting it to an independent authority on which the Commoners will be directly represented…In the proposals for compensation we consider that we have paid due regard to their existing rights and interests."
It would be as well, in passing, to ask the opposition—if such there be—where the income is coming from if the recommendations of this Report are not accepted. I will not weary your Lordships by going through many more of these recommendations. There is one about the preservation of the ancient woods of the Forest, which are perhaps its crowning glory. Five thousand acres of ancient woods are falling into decay because they cannot be enclosed for regeneration. Perhaps I may be displaying temerity in your Lordships' House, speaking before so many of your Lordships who like to spend somnolent afternoons in the pavilions of Lord's—and sometimes in those of the Oval—in claiming that real cricket is played upon the village greens of this country. But no village cricket club within the New Forest can obtain any grant from the National Playing Fields Association—a body which is anxious and willing to make such grants—because of the existing Statute which prohibits all security of tenure.
I am sure that I could arouse indignation among your Lordships by speaking of the continued vandalism of Service Departments which, at the present moment, occupy 8,000 acres of the New

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Forest. Of course, as is the custom of Service Departments, they have desecrated the most beautiful parts of those 8,000 acres. The Air Ministry and War Office occupy these 8,000 acres with derelict buildings, and in one case with a bombing range which has not been used since the war and which is now harbouring all the vagabonds of the district. That is one of the sources of the verderers' income. Your Lordships will be surprised when I tell you that the Air Ministry are paying the verderers an annual compensation of £600.
There is one other point which is of great national concern. Many of your Lordships will agree that alongside our need to increase our timber production is the necessity to increase our livestock population. The New Forest is a natural cattle-raising area, and if its potentialities are extended and the verderers given greater authority I feel certain that a valuable contribution can be made, not only to the quantity but also to the quality of our livestock. Already the verderers, by their ability to institute by-laws, have brought the cases of contagious abortion down to a very small number, and the incidence of tuberculosis in the New Forest is down to 25 per cent. compared with 60 to 80 per cent. reacters in milking herds in other parts of the country. Expert evidence before the Committee showed that the New Forest, even with the 30,000 acres grazing which will be left after the Committee's recommendations for new afforestation are carried out, will carry 6,000 to 8,000 head of cattle, whereas only 2,000 are: at present grazed in the Forest. In spite of all the suggestions that have been made for improving the grazing, the Committee came to the conclusion that by far the best way is to increase the number of animals.
I have not mentioned, and I am not going to mention, perhaps the most contentious part of the Report—that is, the Committee's affirmation that it is necessary to readjust the local authority boundaries in order to have one local authority for the Forest. That, I know, must be a matter for the Boundary Commission and protracted negotiations with the various Government Departments. But even with these omissions, I trust that I have said enough to interest your Lord-ships in this great natural heritage. If
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the Government can find time for legislation, I think that there is no more appropriate place in which to introduce it than your Lordships' House. I beg to move for Papers.
3.13 p.m.
LORD ROBINSON: My Lords, in venturing to intervene in this debate, I feel the need for a full measure of that consideration which your Lordships are accustomed to give to the novice. I am encouraged to proceed because I have been told that a statement coming from one who has long been implicated in the administration of the New Forest might be of interest to your Lordships. I have to declare my interest in the New Forest, just as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has done, by telling your Lordships that I am still the Chairman of the Forestry Commission and as such am responsible for a great part of the administration.
I will begin my plain tale, if I may, with an incident which occurred when I went down to the Forest in 1914 to see about timber supplies for the war effort. I received a kindly and courteous welcome from the Deputy Surveyor, Chief Officer of the Forest, but it seemed to me, both from his manner and his attire, that he was preoccupied with something else; and so it transpired. I believe that that was probably the last occasion on which an officer of the Forest rode to hounds in official time, secure in the fact that he was safe from carping criticism from his superior officer and also at complete peace with his conscience. That trifling episode has always remained in my mind as the end of one period and the beginning of another—a period in which timber, both in the national defence and in the general economy of the nation, was to take on a new and much greater significance. As the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has already told the House, great quantities of timber were felled during the war of 1914–1918. That necessitated, according to the sylviculture of the times, making great clearings which naturally took a long while to fill. The military were also active with training schemes, but after that war the scars which they had made soon healed.
In 1923 the administration of the Forest was transferred from the old Office of Woods and Forests to the new Forestry Commissioners. Those Commissioners

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went in to bat—I take, the analogy from the noble Lord, Lord Lucas—on an ill-prepared and sticky wicket, in a game for which even the rules were not clearly defined. That uneasy state of affairs continued for three or four years, until 1927, when the then Chairman of the Forestry Commission, the late Lord Lovat, and his immediate successor, Lord Clinton, came to the conclusion that something must be done about it. They accordingly set up an Advisory Committee to deal with those extremely troublesome amenity questions, and also initiated a general policy of trying to get on terms with the various interests in the Forest. That policy was confirmed by Sir John Stirling Maxwell, who succeeded Lord Clinton, and it has been continued ever since—I think, if I may say so, with productive results.
To go back, however, to 1923. The most important business so far as the enclosures were concerned was to replant the felled areas and to conserve and cultivate the remaining timber. In that particular job the policy of the Commissioners received relatively little help either from the local people or, I must say, from the nation at large. Your Lordships will remember the atmosphere of the times. There were to be no more wars. As for British timber, it was a second-rate product and we should always obtain from abroad, when and how we required it, just as much timber as we should ever want. Fortunately, the Commissioners persisted in their good intentions. I may group together, I think, the things which throughout the inter-war period steadily deteriorated. One was the grazing in the Forest. The number of animals decreased quite steadily over the whole period, so that at the end there were left rather fewer than 2,000 beasts, with access to some 40,000 acres. That gave every beast the task of consuming the vegetation on 23 acres. That, your Lordships will agree, was some task, which they did not succeed always, in all places, in accomplishing. The result was that in order to get young grazing, and to keep the beasts—even to keep those 2,000—the Commissioners were burning annually something like 4,000 acres to get more fresh grass. That was a slightly ridiculous position to have reached.
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Yoked with the beasts, if I may put it in that way, were the Court of Verderers, who were depending for their finances on the numbers of beasts, and they, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has said, had almost reached bankruptcy by 1938. Simultaneously, too, the open woodlands, some 5,000 acres, steadily deteriorated, and there was nothing whatever that the Commissioners could do about it, because they could not enclose a single tree or protect it from the bite of the animals. Also, during this inter-war period the pressure from outside the Forest on to the rural scene within it increased steadily. More people came to live in and about the Forest. The towns and the cities round about were increasing their boundaries, and making provision for more. All that meant that more and better roads, more pylons, transmission poles and so forth, were required to meet the wants of the various expanding communities.
By 1937 the position had reached the stage where it seemed highly desirable that this general drift should be stopped, and conferences were called from all the interests within and without the Forest to try and see what could be done about it. If I were not wearying your Lordships, I would have liked to say a great deal about those two conferences, but I wish to make only two points: first, that there was a large measure of good feeling among all the people, who were widely drawn, in respect of the problems to be faced; secondly, that out of those conferences there did come some excellent planning work. I would like to say this, too, about the inter-war period—and I think it is important. The Forestry Commissioners and their staff over that period paid a great deal of attention to the sylviculture of the Forest; they learned more about that, about the wild life, and about the general amenities of the place. There was much information to be collected. They were greatly helped by the Advisory Committee, and they instituted researches. That information, in the aggregate, was put to very good use in the Second World War, and there is still a good deal of it which has not been applied but which is waiting for the opportunity.
As the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has said, the World War hit the Forest very hard indeed. The quantity of timber taken out was really extraordinary. It

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would take about 100 good-sized timber ships to transport 450,000 tons; and, mind you, during the Second World War it would have had to be transported right across the Atlantic. The work was done with extraordinary skill by the Deputy Surveyor, Mr. Young. But, although the timber was removed in great quantity, by far the most permanent damage has been done by the military—shall I say, by the Services. The aerodromes which have been established there—three great aerodromes and bombing ranges—could not by any manner of means have been refused. No one could have suggested at the time that opposition should be placed in the way of our gallant airmen in performing their duties, and I make no excuse whatever when I say that I helped them, to the utmost of my ability.
But all those military works were carried out with an understanding, at least from the Forestry Commissioners' point of view (we received a written undertaking where such could be obtained in those hectic days; where we did not get it we tried to get the implication acknowledged) that as soon as national defence was secure those works would be removed and the Forest restored to its former condition. That has not been done, but remains quite certainly as an obligation to be fulfilled as soon as possible. Even with the increase of beasts on the Forest which took place during the war—and the number then rose to 4,000—the Forest was still under-grazed. The area was less by some 9,000 acres than before the war; the number of beasts was more than double, and yet the Forest was under-grazed. That is a matter well worthy of notice.
I come to the period towards the end of the war, when it became apparent that the New Forest, from the Forestry Commissioners' point of view, would require special attention. We felt then the need of getting independent advice, and we were extremely lucky in securing the services of Mr. Harold Baker as Chairman of the Committee, and of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and Mr. Langley-Taylor as his fellow committee-men. With your Lordships' permission, I would like to take this opportunity of thanking Mr. Harold Baker and his colleagues for the excellent Report which they have produced. They have saved the Commission much work which would have been difficult,
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in any event, for the Commissioners to do; but, above that, Mr. Harold Baker and his associates have produced a Report which, quite frankly, the Commissioners themselves were not capable of producing.
I do not think it would be appropriate for me to say what ought to be done on the Report. That opportunity may come later. But I think I am fully entitled to say what are the possibilities within the Forest. I believe that under reformed or better management it would be possible to get for most of the people and most of the interests more of those things which they desire than they are getting to-day. There is room for more and better grazing, for more timber production, for more and better amenity and for more public recreation. But there is one proviso in the getting of all those things, and it is that there shall be a greater spirit of compromise than has yet reigned in that particular domain since the days of William the Conqueror. I would ask those who have special interests in the Forest to consider for once that their interest is not necessarily the sole or the most important interest. Let them raise their eyes a little from the daily task and survey the general scene. So, perhaps, may we get a better system established.
The first recorded history of this magnificent estate took place soon after the Norman Conquest. Even I remember the date, but I will not quote it. At intervals over the long stream of centuries which have rolled away since that time there have been erected landmarks in the shape of Statutes and documentary reports, which reflected very faithfully some special feature of contemporary history. Let me name just three. There is the liberty of the subject in relation to the Crown; there is the provision of oak timber for the Navy, and, coming right down to recent times, there are the Victorian ideas of amenity as expressed in the New Forest Act of 1877. It may be that the time has arrived to erect a new landmark in keeping with our own troublous times. If that should prove to be the case I would ask all those who can assist, even in relatively humble ways, to reflect, as I do sometimes, how great is the honour of being allowed to participate in the building of such a landmark, and how great is the responsibility that that work should be faithfully and well done.
3.32 p.m.
LORD RENNELL: My Lords, if, by the courtesy of other noble Lords who were to have intervened in this debate, I am allowed to do so now, it is with particular pleasure that, on behalf of all your Lordships, I congratulate the noble Lord who has just sat down, not only upon his first speech in your Lordships' House but also upon its subject. It is, I think, more fitting than anything that has happened in your Lordships' House for many a long day that the noble Lord, Lord Robinson, with his associations of the past, should have chosen this particular subject upon which to address us. Like the trees for which he is responsible, like the vegetation in the New Forest, your Lordships' House has continued for many centuries, has suffered the vicissitudes of many times, and yet has seen the same kind of continuity as is shown in the trees and in the administration of the New Forest. Governments come and go, attitudes of mind change, but the trees and your Lordships' House seem to endure in spite of everything that happens. In the light of what has taken place here in recent weeks, we look like continuing to endure as a part of the Government of this country, just as the administration of the New Forest, which has endured for a thousand years, looks likely, as a result of this Report, to endure for many centuries yet.
The document of which the noble Lord, Lord Robinson, has spoken on the Motion introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, seems to me to be one of the most remarkable productions for many, many generations that has been issued to the world at large by a Government in this country. This White Paper, a model, in my humble view, of what a White Paper should be in production, content and form, contains in its hundred-odd pages the whole of the history of this country. Apart from the recommendations which it makes, this White Paper represents a piece of historical research beyond praise, and, what is more, gives us all the opportunity and the honour—as the noble Lord, Lord Robinson, so rightly said—of participating in carrying on the tradition of a thousand years to which that document bears witness.
When the White Paper first appeared, I sent a certain number of copies to various friends of mine in America, because I thought it was appropriate that
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in the Western Hemisphere something of what goes on in the mentality of this country should be understood. It seems to me outstandingly remarkable that in 1947, at the end of a year of considerable difficulty and crisis, any Government in this country—and perhaps, with respect, this Government in particular—should have seen fit to publish a White Paper containing the recommendations that this contains. What it contains in fact is a recommendation to the people of the country to maintain and perpetuate, under modern guise, a system of administration which began under the laws of King Canute. It is to re-establish and re-endow with authority the two administrative bodies which have been responsible for the administration of the New Forest under the Crown for a thousand years.
The Court of Verderers is to continue, only slightly modified under the new name of the Council of Verderers, but with endowed powers and the support of the Treasury to safeguard the rights of commoners, to protect the amenities and to do the day-to-day housekeeping of that unique area. Superimposed on that—as it is proposed in the recommendations of the Commission—is the restoration to its original authority, and perhaps endowment with even greater authority, of the Court of Swainmote. It is recommended that it be given judicial authority and, in addition, the powers of dealing with land tenure and rights which have existed in that area for the thousand years of which I have spoken.
If it were fitting that the administration of the New Forest, under the guise which is now proposed, should have a motto, it is a motto that should perhaps be taken from that well-known inscription over the gate to which Dante referred: "I eternally endure." Abandon ye all hope who attempt to understand the way the British Constitution works. Is it conceivable to anybody outside this country, and even perhaps to many inside, that in the Year of Grace 1947 in which the White Paper came out, this Government should have made these recommendations? A number of Members of the Government Party, including a prominent member of your Lordships' House, have added their signatures to those of well-known authorities for the perpetuation of the verderers, the increase of the powers of their officers, and the

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circumscription of the rights of the Forestry Commission. It is surely remarkable that the Commissioners should have reinstituted and agreed to the swain-mote and should have given birth to one or two of perhaps the most unsocialistic doctrines that I have seen advanced for many years.
For instance, in the recommendations you will find the support of members of the Commission for the régime which will deal with the so-called gypsies and their children. Those recommendations are contained in Appendix XI. The recommendation in the body of the White Paper is undoubtedly a right recommendation, but one which it would be difficult to justify in what might be called the commonly-accepted doctrines of international Socialism. It is said, for instance, that the gypsy children are not welcomed in schools, that they are the progeny of a group of people of the Stone Age but nevertheless citizens of this country, and that they should in fact be segregated—not only their elders but the children also—until they become somewhat more civilised. The recommendation, which has the wholehearted approval of the Commission, says that notwithstanding any educationalists' theories on the subject, the mixing of these children in their present state is much resented by the parents of other children; and apparently the members of the Commission agree that that is quite reasonable.
They go on to say, in support of the recommendation:
" We have mentioned, apart from the provision of living accommodation under more or less decent although perhaps sub-standard conditions, the need for reclamation of character and education."
It is suggested that when the children are more civilised they should eventually be admitted to the local Government schools. I am sure that that is right. But is it not remarkable that to-day we should see that: recommendation put forward from the quarters which have put it forward? Does it not make the whole of our Constitution, the whole of our assembly and of our community in this country a complete mystery to everybody? Can anybody tell what this country is going to do next? Yesterday we had a debate on a very depressing subject and on a position from which there appeared to be no way out. It
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might perhaps be surprising to the world in general if we should find a way out of that situation—as surprising as that these recommendations should have come forward about the administration of the New Forest. I take this as a very good augury. I believe this debate in your Lordships' House to be appropriate on account of the tradition, appropriate on account of the good sense which it conveys, and doubly appropriate on account of the support that it has received from the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Robinson. This will commend it fully to your Lordships' House. The administration of the New Forest is as old as the kingship of England, and it should be increased and perpetuated in the terms of the recommendation of the Commission.
3.45 p.m.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, after the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, who dealt with the more humorous aspect of some of the recommendations and who, like the noble Lord, Lord Robinson, also covered the ground so far as forestry is concerned, I will touch on only one or two points. As one of those keenly interested in agricultural policy, I naturally turn with the greatest interest to what the Committee have reported with regard to the grazing facilities and the capacity in the New Forest for producing more cattle, all of which matters would inure to greater development, at any rate in this part of the country, and thus would assist with regard to supply of food. I suppose that on that topic we should not pass by any suggestions of so sound a nature as those which we find in this Report; great weight, I believe, ought to be given them. I should, therefore, like to reinforce the appeal made to the Government, by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, not merely to give this scheme generally their blessing, but so far as may be to do something on the lines suggested and to take speedy action to see whether the suggestions and implications of this Report cannot be implemented in a comparatively short time. As has been said, the possibilities of development in the Forest are considerable. The conditions appear to have proved themselves suitable, but there is room for more and better grazing.
One other point that I should like to mention is the suggestion for drawing together all the authorities dealing with

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the New Forest. That is bound to take time, and it implies a good deal of argument and negotiation; indeed, I am afraid that a great many months must elapse before this excellent suggestion can be implemented. I believe that it would have an extraordinarily good effect, however, and that it would be helpful in developing all those amenities of the Forest, and all the possibilities of food and timber growing, and so on. If we could have one authority, one district council or whatever it might be called, we might secure the closest co-operation of the Forestry Commission.
I should also like to emphasize what has been said with regard to the project of building, not only on the periphery of the forest but also in certain parts of the forest. There is a risk that such development, instead of improving the amenities which the New Forest affords at the present time, will destroy them. I warmly echo the hope, therefore, that His Majesty's Government will at least set in train something to see that in these two regards the Report of the Committee is not pigeon-holed. As has been said, too, the New Forest is a priceless possession of this country. It is not merely possessed of intense beauty, but it is also a home for wild animals of all descriptions, both desirable and—so far as the grey squirrel is concerned, I am afraid—undesirable. Also in this area are a number of rare birds and rare floral growths which deserve careful and direct attention from people like the agisters, verderers and keepers who are dealing with the actual handling of the conditions in the New Forest.
In conclusion, I should like to say one word with regard to the question of amenities, to which allusion has been made. Those of us who live near the New Forest, and who go through it fairly frequently, realise the waste, on the one hand, and the hideous conditions, on the other, which the perpetuation of military and other occupations of the land in the New Forest now presents. I cannot help feeling that something more could be done there. If there were a sufficient drive from those in authority in London, and in the commands of the various arms of the Services in the country, a great deal could be done to remove what I find is a real eye-sore.
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It is distasteful, not only to those who live in the Forest but also to those who visit the New Forest as a means of recreation and for the rest and comfort that the Forest can afford to those not fortunate enough to live there. There are so many of them; they come in their hundreds and thousands. With these few words, I should like warmly to support everything that has been said this afternoon. I have said nothing about the production of timber, for I could not pretend to speak on that point so forcibly as the noble Lord, Lord Robinson, spoke. I earnestly hope, as has been said, that this may be one of the milestones from which, with good will on the part of those in authority, something may be done to avoid the bad things that are going on in the New Forest, to build up that great national heritage which we have and to retain it and develop it for the future generations of this country.
3.55 p.m.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: My Lords, two or three earlier speakers have declared their interests, and I feel that I should do the same. I have several interests in the New Forest. First of all, I am a Forestry Commissioner. Secondly, I am one of the biggest common right owners, if not the biggest, in the Forest. I was not aware of that fact until about four years ago. So far as my researches go, those rights have not been exercised, either by my forbears or by the tenants of the land to which they attach, certainly during this century. I should add that quite recently a near relative of mine has been Chairman of the New Forest Advisory Committee. If your Lordships can tell me which of my interests will sway me most, it will be a great help to me.
Like other speakers, I must pay tribute to the Report. It is excellent in every way, and is a valuable addition to the historical documents attaching to the New Forest. Unlike quite a number of historical documents, it is also very readable indeed, and in places most amusing. That Report points out quite clearly that there are three interests concerned—the commoners, the public and the Forestry Commission. As a matter of fact, there is yet another interest to which they do not specifically refer, but which they imply throughout the whole of their Report and which was spoken of at some length by

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the noble Lord, Lord Rennell. That is the historical interest, which we must maintain in the New Forest. After all, as has been pointed out, the New Forest has persisted in its organization since Norman, and even pre-Norman days; and even in these times it is good to maintain some of the old things in the state that they were many years ago.
That ancient organization has been preserved, and I am inclined to think that it has been preserved by that very thing which has been referred to—the age-old quarrel between the commoners and the Crown, in the first instance, followed by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, now, in turn, followed by the Forestry Commission. If one were not to be too polite, one would say that the commoners, through their chosen representatives, have on occasions been stubborn—even obstinate. I think that that comes out rather clearly in the Report. Referring to three proposals which they have been discussing the Committee say:
" These three proposals all affect the interests of the commoners. Their attitude to them varies from strong dislike to resolute opposition."
From occasional meetings with the commoners for business reasons, my own experience is that, as often as not, any new ideas, or even any old ideas, put before them are generally met with resolute opposition. I feel that we owe a debt of gratitude to the commoners for the attitude that they have taken throughout many generations and many centuries. If they had not been stubborn in preserving their rights, we should not have the New Forest in the guise in which we see it to-day. We owe them a debt of gratitude that that lovely area remains comparatively unspoiled, even to this day. In any consideration of this problem we must give due weight to the views of the commoners, and even defer to them to the extent, possibly, of not producing an organisation quite so perfect as we should wish. It would be better that we should preserve the New Forest as we know it rather than that we should seek too enthusiastically a perfect organisation which will destroy the organisation of the New Forest as we know it.
There is one other point which I would like to mention in that connection, and that is that the New Forest is not a national park in the sense in which that term is understood, and I hope it never
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will be a national park. On the other hand, it is the prototype of what a national park should be, and the problems that are confronting the New Forest to-day are similar in nature to those which will confront any area which is turned into a national park. Therefore, what we do with the New Forest may well be a precedent and a guide for what we need to do in the future when national parks are set up. I know there are many people who say that the New Forest is different. Of course it is different. I have never known an area anywhere in England where, if one wanted to do anything, it was not claimed that conditions there were different. There are always differences; they are differences of detail though not of principle, and it is the principles that underlie what we do in the New Forest which will be a guide in the national parks of the future.
As has been pointed out, the main problem in the New Forest is one of finance. The verderers have been bankrupt for many years past except for an occasional windfall. They have not had sufficient money to do their job properly. It is not their fault; the Act of 1887 has kept them tied down. A good many proposals are made in this report whereby they may be set on the right road in regard to finance. There is a mention of marking fees. Of course, marking fees could be increased, but I should hesitate to recommend that that should be done to any great extent because, as has already been pointed out by Lord Lucas and others, the number of cattle in the New Forest is to-day far short of what it should be—far too short to keep the grazing in good order. Therefore, any great increase in the marking fees might easily deter people more and more from putting cattle in the Forest. Various other recommendations are made whereby the verderers may increase their income, such as that relating to enclosures and so on. I hope that they will come into force and that they will provide a sufficient income to enable the verderers to carry out their duties properly and efficiently, as set out and suggested in this Report.
I think it is not inconceivable, however, that they will need additional aid, over and above the income that they can get from marking fees, rents from enclosures

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or other sources; and that must mean a grant from some source. It is suggested that it should be from the Forestry Commission, out of the Forestry Fund. I would agree with that. I should dislike a direct Treasury grant very much indeed. If it is required, I would like to see the Forestry Commission interposed between the verderers and the Treasury, so that they can fight the battle of the verderers with the Treasury, as they are better fitted to do so than are the verderers themselves. I hope, however, that the verderers will be able to stand on their own feet without any such grant, because if they have a grant they necessarily will be tied to somebody who will see to the administration of that grant.
There is another point in connection with finance which I think should be mentioned. Various suggestions are made in the Report for the improvement of amenities, such as the provision of the belts which have already been mentioned, the small enclosures for the regeneration of the ancient and ornamental woods, and matters of that sort, including one thing which has not been mentioned so far—namely, the acquisition of adjacent commons. All that is going to affect the financial side of the Forestry Commission's activities in the New Forest, and affect it adversely. I have no objection to that at all, so long as it is clearly understood that the Forestry Commission, if they carry out those suggestions, will be carrying them out for the purpose of public amenity and will possibly be allowed to make a separate entry in their accounts showing clearly that this is something which is separate from their activities as producers of timber.
My Lords, it is proposed that the Court of Verderers should be reconstituted. I do not know whether I am right or wrong, but the newly constituted Court of Verderers is going to consist of a chief Verderer, appointed, I think, by the Minister of Agriculture. Is that right?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: By the Crown.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: Appointed by the Lord Chancellor. I think the Court should be, as now, appointed by the Crown, to keep the tradition going if nothing else. The Court of Verderers is also to consist of four members elected
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by the commoners, and six other appointed members. I think I am right when I say that the Court of Verderers has always been the body representing the commoners, and I feel strongly that it should continue to be so. Under this recommendation, the elected representation of the commoners will not be in a majority, and I feel that there should be a majority of elected representatives on that body, so that it may continue really and truly to represent the interests of the commoners.
I have concluded all that I wished to say. But action is required. It has been suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that the Government should introduce a Bill, and, as he so rightly suggested, this House is the most suitable place in which to introduce it. Politically the subject of the Bill will not be controversial. In almost every other respect, however, it will be extremely controversial, I have no doubt, and I suggest to the noble Earl. Lord Huntingdon, that if he is going to view the Bill with favour, he should follow the precedent which his Ministry has exercised so satisfactorily in the past—namely, that of calling together the interested parties to study the Bill in draft before it sees the light of day. By that means at least the highest common measure of agreement may be reached. I had some experience of that procedure with regard to the Agriculture Bill last year, and as we all know, it was extremely satisfactory on the whole. I would say this from my experience on that occasion: that the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretaries and, more particularly perhaps, the senior permanent officials of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, have a measure of tact and understanding which enables meetings of that nature, however controversial and however difficult, to go with a smoothness which is quite agreeable.
4.9 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON): My Lords, it might be presumptuous of me if I were to congratulate all the very able speakers this afternoon, as I think they deserve, but I feel from the sense of the debate that I can, on behalf of the House, and particularly on behalf of the Government and myself and those on these

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Benches, congratulate the authors of this Report. It is an excellent work; not only is it clear in itself but it clarifies an extremely difficult subject. Moreover it is presented in such a delightful manner that it is one of the rare White Papers that one can study with enjoyment from start to finish. To read it is more like reading history than reading an official document. Therefore I would like to convey our thanks to the authors, to Mr. Baker and the other signatories, and to tender them our sincere congratulations on this production.
I would also like, on behalf of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, to thank the noble Earl, Lord Radnor, for his kind words. I am glad he found that the negotiations to which he has referred progressed so harmoniously. We too were glad to have the opportunity of taking part in such negotiations before introducing a Bill which in the event commanded a lot of support. I would add a word regarding the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Rennell (I regret to note that he is not now in the Chamber), and to point out that this Government are always anxious to preserve those things which are good. It is only the bad things that we wish to eliminate.
But to return to the subject of forestry. Unfortunately the large forests of England have disappeared. Forests which used to exist on such an enormous scale, covering large tracts of this country, are no more. Traces remain in Charnwood, Windsor, Sherwood, Savernake and Dean, but especially in the New Forest, once the preserve of Royal deer—now, alas, hunted only in ghostly form by the shade of the Norman King, William Rufus. To all antiquarians these forests are of particular interest. It has already been pointed out that, in a way, they enshrine the whole history of England from the days of Canute down to the present rather more troublous times. But there are more vital and pressing reasons, apart from historical and antiquarian interests, why the remains of these great forests should be preserved. And they apply particularly in the case of the New Forest. This forest, which once belonged to the Crown, has now, under the Forestry Acts of 1923 and 1945, become a State forest—that is to say, it belongs to the people of this country, and on their behalf is vested in my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture and
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Fisheries. His Majesty's Government rejoice in this great national heritage, and they are determined to see that it is used and kept in the best possible way for the benefit of the people of this country. That is the Governments' point of view with regard to this very great trust.
I am satisfied, having listened to the speeches which have been made this afternoon, that there is universal agreement with that point of view. But while such a principle is easy to state, when we come to what we are to do, and how we are to work out plans, it is rathar more difficult to disentangle the details and re-weave them into a harmonious pattern. I do not suppose that any of your Lordships will expect me this afternoon to announce the Government's policy on this Report, or to state specifically what proposals we are going to carry out. As the noble Earl, Lord Radnor, has pointed out, there are many conflicting interests. In fact, I might say that the Forest has grown as bountiful a crop of quarrels over many years as anyone could wish to see. There has, indeed, been a real harvest of difficulties and of matters of conflict. I am confident, however, that with the right spirit of compromise, with good will on all sides and with a general realization on the part of the people concerned of how desirable it is to reach agreement, a satisfactory solution can be reached and, indeed, will be reached.
I should like now to say a few words about forestry. It has been pointed out this afternoon—and rightly—that an enormous amount of timber was taken from the New Forest during the last two wars, and that this made a big contribution to our victories. I should like to remind your Lordships that the need for growing timber is as great now in peace time, in the very difficult economic circumstances in which we find ourselves, as it is necessary to have a reserve of timber in case of a future war—though we hope of course that war will never come again. Timber is absolutely vital to us. There are various points of view apart from the amenity aspect of our trees, to be taken into consideration. There is the question of climate, and the absolute necessity for keeping a balance between our woodlands and our open spaces. If this should be neglected, the ultimate effects on agriculture may be disastrous. Therefore, it is imperative that the people of this country should

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pay strong regard to the growing of timber, both in these forests and elsewhere. Of course, we must never lose sight of the fact that the forest has an enormous amenity value to the general public, and in any schemes which we may introduce that amenity aspect must be given due weight. It is most essential that it should be preserved and developed.
Questions of forestry can, of course, be extremely controversial: What should be planted, how much, when and where? It is here, I think, that we can count on the very great experience of the Forestry Commissioners. At this point I would like to congratulate wholeheartedly the noble Lord, Lord Robinson, on the excellent speech which he has given us this afternoon. I know that this House—because one senses the feeling—was greatly impressed by what he said. It was most enjoyable to hear someone speaking who knows as much about his subject as does Lord Robinson about forestry. I can only say, on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches, that I feel sure the whole House will hope that Lord Robinson will favour us with many speeches in the future.
The noble Lord, Lord Robinson, has dealt at length with trees and woods, and I do not wish now to repeat what has been said in that connection. But there is a little problem upon which I may touch. I understand that the soil of the New Forest is particularly suitable for growing softwoods, which we urgently require for various needs. On the other hand, we do not want entirely to neglect the hardwoods which contribute so much to the beauty of our woodlands. I believe that the experience upon which the Forestry Commission can draw will enable them to concentrate on both these aspects of forestry. I am sure that they will give adequate consideration both to the amenities and to the necessity of having reserves of timber; also that they will have regard to the need for making a profit, which is so essential to us in these days. From the speech which the noble Lord, Lord Robinson has made, I feel sure that your Lordships are all convinced—certainly you should be—that the Forestry Commissioners, while they will bear in mind the commercial features of the matter, will have the deeper interests of the country very much at heart.
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An aspect which strikes my mind as being extremely interesting is that which was dealt with by the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan. In our programme for the expansion of agriculture this ideal grazing ground of the New Forest, now under-grazed, could be of extraordinary use to us, and I assure your Lordships that it will not be overlooked by my Department. Another important consideration is the rights of commoners to grazing in the Forest. As the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has pointed out, their rights can be exercised only through the mouths of their animals, but with their appeals and eloquence we have been made continuously aware of their claims. These very ancient rights should undoubtedly be preserved. Then there is the ancient Court of Verderers, to which the Crown appoints the Chief Verderer. On this point the Report makes some interesting suggestions, which should be looked into. The noble Lord brings into the picture the problem of the amenities of the Forest. The question of the encroachment of industry and building is a difficult one, particularly as encroachments have already taken place. Here again, I cannot prejudge the issue, but it will not be overlooked.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, gave a most interesting speech from first-hand knowledge. He earns praise on two counts, as one of the authors of the Report and for his excellent speech. The noble Lord pressed on the Government not only that they should deal quickly with the question but that they should deal with it in sections, that they should not wait for the bigger issues to be decided before implementing in some way or another the lesser recommendations of the Report. I assure the noble Lord that we are seized of the urgency of this matter. I cannot go further than that this afternoon. We realise that it is not just a policy which it would be pleasant to carry out one day but an urgent problem which should be dealt with as soon as possible. To add substance to that assurance, let me say that the Minister has set up a small inter-departmental Committee, under the Chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Robinson, to consider the different views of the Departments concerned, such as the Ministries of Agriculture, Transport, and Town and Country Planning. This Committee have already had their first meeting. It would

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obviously be improper for me to prejudge in any way the findings of this Committee; that is the reason why I cannot give a fuller statement this afternoon. I would like to convey to the members of the Committee that we are awaiting their Report with much interest, and I hope they will reach their conclusions without undue delay so that we can take some action. There is not much more I can say. I have tried to show, without being able to say much that is positive, that the Government realise the importance of this question, and are whole-heartedly behind the preservation of this great and very interesting Forest.
4.24 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am grateful to the many noble Lords who have contributed to this debate, and for the very flattering remarks that have been made. I made it clear at the outset of my previous remarks that the credit and all the praise for the literary style and excellence of the Report must be given to the Chairman. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rennell, for all that he said, although I was rather hurt that he should express surprise—indeed more, for he said that people both outside and inside this country were filled with consternation—at the fact that anybody on this side of the House should put cleanliness next to godliness.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for filling in a gap which I had left, in the interests of time, on the preservation of the flora and fauna of the Forest. Experts have submitted to the Committee in evidence that the Forest is unique in Western Europe; that is the reason for the strong recommendation made by the Committee that the New Forest should be declared a nature reserve and put in charge of a curator. I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Radnor, for his very great interest. He is the largest commoner and the least quarrelsome. I would also extend my thanks to the noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, but I am rather shaken by one thing he said. If his idea of speed is to set up a departmental Committee, then departmental Committees must have altered considerably since I had experience of them. Nevertheless, I am impressed with the fact that the noble Earl has given an undertaking that this shall be
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treated as a matter of urgency. I feel that the weight of arguments that noble Lords have used this afternoon will be conveyed by my noble friend to the Minister, and that we shall get a speedy enactment, as the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan said, as soon perhaps as may be. I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, with drawn.

TRANSPORT SERVICES FOR SCOTTISH ISLANDS.
4.27 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH asked His Majesty's Government to state what assistance they propose to provide in transport and other communal services for crofters and others who make their living on the small islands off the north and west of Scotland; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, it is a far cry from the New Forest to a small island away to the north off the north of Scotland, to which I ask your Lordships to come with me in imagination for a short time this afternoon. Your Lordships have had an extremely interesting debate about the New Forest, and many considerations of a very human kind have been under discussion. I do not think your Lordships will find the subject which will come under the heading of this Motion any more lacking in human interest. The island to which I particularly wish to take your Lordships is Foula, which lies thirty-five miles to the north of the Orkneys and twenty miles to the west of the Shetlands. It has rocky cliffs, rising hundreds of feet out of the sea, and I believe it has been well called "the edge of the world." Standing there, with nothing to the north of you, you might well feel that you are standing on the very edge of the world.
The island is only about three miles by two miles, and what is of interest to us here to-day is that it is the home of a hardy race of men in whose veins, I doubt not, runs the blood of the Vikings. The communication between this little island and civilisation is a six-oared row-boat which does the trip every week to Shetland; but, of course, during the winter the island is cut off for many months at a time. These crofters are a proud and independent race. They are intolerant alike of compulsion and of

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charity; and those are both characteristics, I say at once, which endear them to me. The crofters are passionately attached to their island. I do not think you can get a greater love of country anywhere than in the remote glens and islands of Scotland.
There is an old naval man who has come back to Foula after serving his time and going all round the world. He is quite clear about it. He says that he has been all over the world, and that there is nowhere in the world to touch Foula. Thirty years ago there were more than 200 people in Foula; to-day the population numbers something under 100. But it is increasing now. I do not know whether it is because the man-made difficulties with which people have to contend on the mainland are worse than the climatic and other difficulties with which nature presents the population in Foula, but it is true that the population is now increasing. I was rather interested to hear the noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, let drop an opinion just now that these are more troublous times than the times of King Canute. I wonder. I would rather like to have King Canute's view about that; I should think he had very considerable difficulties to deal with in his day. Anyway, whatever the reason, the population of this island is now on the increase.
The first question I want to ask His Majesty's Government is: What is the official policy of the Government and of the county council concerned, with regard to this small outlying island? I have some reason for concern about this, because a correspondent, who is intimately connected with this island and spends a lot of time there, wrote me about a year ago a letter in which the following occurs:
" I was discussing the problem a few days ago with a high-ranking official on the Board of Agriculture. When I said that the Lerwick people "—
of course, Lerwick is the county town of Shetland; that is where the county affairs are regulated—
" were in favour of evacuating all outlying islands, he calmly replied: ' That, I think, is the direction in which our policy also would lie.' When I enumerated the things which Foula could contribute to the outside world, he said: There is nothing that you could produce in Foula which could not be produced better and more cheaply elsewhere'."
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I am hoping to secure a very definite pronouncement of policy from my noble friend on that point. I would set against it, if I may, as the shortest way of summing up the argument, an extract from one sentence of an article which I wrote in connection with the Hill Sheep Report in which I had the privilege to co-operate a few years ago. I said:
" Vitally important as are hill sheep to British agriculture, more important still to Britain is the race of men who produce and tend them. We all felt, I think,"—
that is, the members of the Committee—
" that our aim was not only to repopulate the hills with healthy sheep, but to make the glens once more the home of happy, healthy, Scottish families."
That I believe to be a policy which will be endorsed by your Lordships, and by the noble Lord who is to reply. On the assumption that I shall receive a favourable declaration, I would say on that point only that I think it is important, provided that we mean to do that, to try to secure towards the fringe a different frame of mind, both at the centre and in the outer administration such as the county council. I am not underestimating the difficulties of a county council like the county council of Shetland. I believe that they cover some twenty-seven islands, more or less remote, and that the product of a penny rate is £60. Of course, the difficulties are immense. Nevertheless, I think the county council must be drawn from people who probably live in Lerwick. And I think it is important that from time to time the centre should give them an indication, and they must direct their attention to their own fringe as well as to their own immediate affairs.
Having, I hope, done something to secure a declaration of policy from the noble Lord, I am now going to try to make some practical suggestions as to what can be done, because I believe that in this particular case remedial measures are easy and will give immediate results. The first thing that is needed is a boat—a boat which will be able to ply out to Foula and do two things which are urgently needed: first, to convey goods into the island; and, secondly, to bring the cattle out. This point about cattle is vital. A few years ago, when they had a better boat, there was an export of 100 head of cattle a year from Foula. That export has now entirely ceased. The point

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is that Foula is a hill sheep country. There are 4,000 acres of good hill sheep ground in Foula and, as those of your Lordships who are acquainted with hill sheep farming know, the vital thing on the hills is to have cattle. Sheep concentrate on the fine grasses, and if there are only sheep the coarse grasses and the sphagnum moss are left and the fine grass deteriorates. That is one of the main recommendations of our Hill Sheep Report, that we should encourage cattle on the hills. The Government are doing that; they are giving a cattle subsidy. There are two or three kinds of cattle which can winter on the hills, and that is vital to the best production on the hill sheep ground. Foula must have a boat which will enable this export of cattle to be resumed, and in this way we shall achieve what this country is now most urgently needing—namely, a greater production of both beef and mutton, and also, of course, wool. Another thing that boat could do would be to take in the lime. Although Foula is so remote, and has its cliffs, it is, nevertheless, first-class hill sheep country; but it is lime hungry. I am told that the soil is good, but that it urgently needs lime. There is a lime-producing plant quite handy on the mainland—that is, of course, the mainland of Shetland. I am talking about the mainland of Shetland, and not about the mainland of Scotland. This boat could serve all those purposes.
What I want to ask my noble friend to do is to think hard as to how a boat could be found. I do not think that it should be impossible. If one thinks of all the might and majesty of His Majesty's Navy which is now lying tied up in harbour all over the country, I feel certain that there must be suitable boats tied up, rusting and doing nothing, which could be handed over to these islanders. I offer this suggestion to my noble friend. I am told that there were vessels used for lifting buoys on the boom defence at Scapa. They are Diesel-driven, three-engine, 18-knot boats, complete with hold and derrick, 60 feet long, 2 feet forward and 4 feet aft, and possessing a draught sufficiently shallow to lie alongside Foula pier at any state of the tide. Running costs are very low, and the boats can be manned by two men. Such a boat could be kept in Walls or Scalloway and could serve the whole of the west side of Shetland. The crew would be part-time fishers
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or crofters. That is a suggestion which I think it is worth pursuing, but I would not limit it to that. If we can attract the interest of the Lords of the Admiralty, I am certain that they could find, if not that boat, then some other. There is a boat, the "Valkyria," which delivers lime and agricultural requirements, but I hope the noble Lord will not offer me the "Valkyria," because she is stationed on the east side of Shetland and Foula is on the west. I think most seamen would prefer to run to Orkney or Aberdeen than to venture round the roost. So much for sea communications.
I think that some attention ought to be paid to air communications. I do not know whether there could be some sort of air ambulance (I believe there is already), but there should be some sort of aeroplane available to take the officials about, and to convey urgent cases of sickness. The third question on communications is that of roads. There are hardly any roads in Foula. I think the islanders themselves would provide the labour if a proper grant, which I believe is available, were provided. I do not know what are the administrative difficulties, but nothing much seems to happen. Then there is the question of the pier and the slipway. The slipway is for the mail boat, and the pier, I think, has to be rebuilt for the benefit of the larger boat. I understand that things are moving there. There was an offer by the Board of Agriculture of an 85 per cent. grant if the county council would find the odd 15 per cent. The county council could not do that, and suggested that an application should be made for a 100 per cent. grant. But the islanders said that 100 per cent. was not necessary, and that they would find the 15 per cent. themselves. I believe that they are doing the work already.
Another practical suggestion which I would make is with regard to the question of fishing. There used formerly to be a substantial export of salt fish from Foula, but the line fishing, I understand, has been destroyed by the steam trawlers. There was a Report to the Scottish Council on Industry by the Committee on the White Fishing, which recommended that the coastline of Shetland should be regarded as running from Sumburgh Head to Foula and from Foula to Eshaness, and that trawling be prohibited within three miles to seaward of it. I am told

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that if that recommendation had been adopted, it would have restored prosperity not only to Foula but to the whole west coast of Shetland. I hope my noble friend will see what can be done about that because that will do something to restore the spawning beds.
Then there are certain sundry items which I would like to mention. Could not something be done to supply laboursaving machinery for the cutting and carrying of peat? Owing to the absence of roads, there is an enormous waste of labour, in that the women carry the peats on their backs in baskets—they call them "cushies." The War Department must have vehicles which were made for crossing boggy ground during the war. All sorts of vehicles were used, and I think the War Department might be able to help. That would be a tremendous help. The other thing which is wanted is the encouragement to the islanders to engage in winter occupations. They make small boats (which I believe are exported), with great skill. They also make furniture; and they are said to be very musical—certainly they can make violins. I have no doubt, also, that the weaving industry could be re-established. Therefore, expert advice is needed, and I believe that that could be made available. I am told that in 1947 the islanders had—and I wish to give full credit to the Central Department—visits from experts which were well received and were very encouraging. Their tuberculosis expert examined the cattle and pronounced the whole of the cattle in the island free. Incidentally, I believe that the children are extremely healthy, which is all to the good.
I have only one more word to say, and that is about housing. I think housing in Foula is a case where the best has been the enemy of the good. There is a 50 per cent. grant if you instal inside sanitation, plumbing and all the rest of it. Of course, you cannot expect people in Foula to rise from nothing to the modern town standard. They have made great improvements, but there ought to be some system whereby a smaller grant could be made available for a less complete approach to urban perfection. I do not want to labour the point, but I know that there has been considerable discouragement in that the medical officer of health has been over there and
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has rather discouraged them from making part improvements because they could not go the whole way. I do not want to detain your Lordships much longer, because there are other speakers to follow me. What I have done is to cite one particular case, although I know that my Motion is much wider. I propose to argue from the particular to the general. I am leaving to other noble Lords who will speak the question of developing the general point of communications in the West Highlands and the Islands. I would like only to remind the Government that they have the responsibility fair and square upon their shoulders now that transport has been nationalised. I am afraid they cannot escape by blaming the London North Eastern or anybody else. They now have it fairly upon their backs, and we shall look with interest to see how they carry it out.
In conclusion, may I say that I want three things? I want a declaration of policy with regard to the particular island of Foula, that the Government do not intend to work for the evacuation of these people or allow these people to be unnecessarily evacuated. I think it is the education authorities who want to get the children out and who want to put them in a school in town. I think a little less education and a little more country life in Foula would probably be better. Secondly, I want some promise of help in these particular matters of transport; in particular I want the Admiralty to try to find a boat, because I think that would do a tremendous lot to help. Thirdly, I want some recognition of the Government's responsibility for these communications under nationalisation. I beg to move for Papers.
4.46 p.m.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, this is the first time for eight or nine years that I have addressed your Lordships and it is therefore my maiden speech in this Chamber. I would not venture to detain your Lordships this afternoon were it not that the subject under review is one that is very close to my heart, and one about which I have considerable experience and a limited amount of knowledge. The noble Lord who has just spoken has directed your Lordships' attention to one particular island and the group which lie off the North coast of Scotland. For my part, I

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would prefer to direct your Lordships' attention now to that other group, the Inner and Outer Islands off the West coast of Scotland, and in particular I shall have occasion to refer to my own island home off the West coast of Argyllshire.
It seems to me that, in dealing with the question of the islands, we are dealing with a problem about which it is easy enough to enumerate the difficulties but very hard to produce the answers. I am afraid that to a great many questions the answers may prove to be somewhat uneconomic, by which I mean that, to provide the services we need, the Government or the companies concerned must not look for profit so much as for subsidy. There are two main points which I think we have to keep in mind. The first is that in dealing with these islands we are dealing with a small but virile population, comparatively unknown to many people—possibly unknown to many of your Lordships—and statistically only a small proportion of the population compared with the rest of the United Kingdom. Secondly, that population, in so far as it is situated in the islands, has to rely on sea or air transport for its supplies, as opposed to rail, road or canal transport.
For several years we have always heard the general complaint that we have inadequate steamer services, and sometimes there is a complaint nowadays that the air service is equally inadequate. So far as piers are concerned at which steamers are to land their cargo, they are either nonexistent or inadequate. There is a popular and well-known song in Scotland known as "The Road to the Isles," a song with an enchanting melody and attractive words. We have to remember that the real road to the isles is by the steamer which brings the mail, the rations and the general cargo produce, and that that route corresponds in the islands to what on the mainland is the train, the bus or the lorry. That being the case, I have often wondered why the denizens—I hope that is the right word to use; you cannot refer to the inhabitants of the islands as citizens—or at any rate the taxpayers of these islands should not be entitled to some grant from the Road Fund, some development fund, or other such similar source, to improve those services which are in fact the "Road to the Isles."
Still more do I feel some surprise—I am not sure I would have referred to this
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had not the noble Lord who preceded me mentioned the word "nationalisation "—that when the present Government took over the rail and transport services, they omitted to take over coastal shipping and, so far as I know, ferry services. I have a shrewd suspicion that that was because such services do not pay. I will not, however, press for an answer on that point. Perhaps it was rather tactless of me to raise the matter.
However, I think it is worth while remembering that the telephone and electricity services which are now being installed, or are to be installed, must entail heavy capital expenditure. We are most grateful for these services, and for my own part I should like to pay a warm tribute to the excellence of the work done by the staff and by the actual workers of the Post Office Telephone Services who are, at the present moment, engaged in linking up my own home with the mainland. Their efficiency, enterprise and energy is something altogether refreshing, especially to those who are inclined to say that people in this country do not work. If, however, I may express a preference so far as the Islands are concerned between electricity, telephone or shipping, I personally would give priority to the steamer services. It has always seemed to me that the order should be, first to get supplies to and from the islands regularly by ship; thereafter to know, by telephone, when those ships are coming, and thirdly to examine, distribute and, if necessary, consume those supplies by electricity.
I come now to the first point of which I have given specific notice to the noble Lord who is to reply, and that is the question of shipping, because that is the main point with which we in the Western Isles are concerned. I want to stress that, because, as I have already suggested, we are dependent on shipping for most of our supplies—certainly for those supplies which we cannot provide ourselves. That question has been intensified now by the fact that we are all on rations and we have to rely on the shipping service to bring us those rations, some of which are essential to everyday life for every man. In making the suggestion that our shipping should be improved, I am not intending in any way to attack the main shipping service to those islands. I know that Messrs. MacBraynes, by recent acquisition, have acquired a virtual monopoly of the coastal traffic; but

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Messrs. MacBraynes are, I think, doing their best in difficult circumstances. We have always to remember that, in addition to other difficulties, they have the conditions of weather to consider.
All these matters have been under consideration by the officials concerned and have been raised in your Lordships' House several times in the last twenty years or so, but I feel that the consideration that they have received thereafter has tended to be rather more passive than active. I hope that we shall now get more active consideration of all these urgent problems. In this matter I feel considerable sympathy for the noble Lord who is going to reply and who is now occupying the place which I once occupied myself, from which I had to answer questions on Scottish affairs. It sometimes requires a good deal of delicacy and tact to slide over the answers given, and I remember having myself, on many occasions, given voice to statements which in many respects were in conflict with my own views and perhaps rather abhorrent to my own feelings. I fully realise the difficulties, and I do not blame the shipping companies concerned. I would remind those who are concerned with this question that in the winter months, however good a shipping service is, it must inevitably on occasions find matters complicated by weather conditions.
Another point which the Government might bear in mind is the extreme shortage of shipping tonnage, at any rate of shipping of the right dimensions for our purposes. I cannot give details of the right sort of shipping required for these services with the same precise measurements that the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, has given for his corner of Scotland, but I can inform your Lordships and the Government that where I believe the shortage exists is in the provision of ships which are not too small to carry, say, 100 cattle, about thirty passengers and a requisite amount of cargo, and at the same time not too big to render them unsuitable for entering channels or tying up to piers, or, where piers do not exist, for getting in close to land their passengers or goods by ferry boat. It is well known that there has been, during the war and since, an extreme shortage of that type of vessel, and it is for the Government to say
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what they can do in the years to come to make provision of these ships.
If I may stress the necessity for regular calls rather more intimately, I should like to inform your Lordships that in my own home, off the Argyllshire coast, we rarely get more than one mail-boat delivery a week. We sometimes get two, but we cannot rely on more than one. We do not always know when that boat is coming. Recently, under a new arrangement made by Messrs. MacBraynes, one regular boat is, so far as possible, calling on Tuesdays. But that is not the whole question. Not only do we have to rely on these ships for our mails, but the inhabitants depend on them for their rations. The rations for the most part come from Glasgow or Greenock and it is important that they should arrive with reasonable regularity, because we have not facilities for keeping the goods very long. In the warm weather such items as fish and meat do not keep, and we are not sufficiently far advanced yet in the islands to have our own refrigerators. It is therefore important that the supplies should get there with reasonable regularity. I may perhaps be forgiven if I mention that last week when I left home the inhabitants had not received their supplies from Glasgow and Greenock for a fortnight—partly because of bad luck, perhaps, and partly because of bad management by all concerned.
The next point I wish to mention is that of piers, because they are most important. Where they do not exist, as is the case in my own home, in the island of Coll, and Colonsay, I feel that as soon as possible we should have some promise given to us of their construction, regardless of the capital cost, and regardless of the necessity to reduce capital expenditure to-day—a necessity of which we are all aware. If and where there are piers—and there are several—which are unsuitable and in need of repairs, then those necessary repairs should be accelerated so far as possible. Steamer services can be greatly improved if we have those piers, or those improvements to piers, because in that way time and fuel will be saved. The steamer in question, instead of wasting time landing goods by ferry-boat, can drop its cargo at a pier, take on its next cargo and proceed, thereby saving several hours of steaming.

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Your Lordships, perhaps, will also not object to being reminded of the difficulties of landing produce at an island where there is no pier. In the case of my own home, when cattle have to be removed from land or taken to land, it necessitates a steamer carrying on board a horse-box. If an animal is going to the island it has to be placed in the horse-box, lifted and dropped into a ferry-boat, conveyed in the ferry-boat to the shore and lifted out of the horse-box from the ferry-boat to the shore; then the ferry-boat has to go back to the steamer for the next load. All that takes a considerable amount of time which could, and would, be saved if we had a pier.
There is one other point on this question of piers of which I have given the noble Lord notice. It is this. I think there is a tendency in the Western Islands for every little place to put up a case for its own individual pier, but it seems to me that to-day, when road transport is so important and so encouraged, the larger islands such as Skye, Mull, and North Uist, having between them a great variety of small piers, should concentrate on one main landing pier and upon having road services to intercommunicate between the different piers. It is really a form of centralisation which is required. I think it would be some economy for the steamers to call at one pier and drop as much as they can there, rather than aim at dropping small loads at many little piers.
I have one word to say about air services, and more particularly about air ambulances. In my own area—and I know that there has been a similar plea from certain districts in Mull—we are dependent upon air ambulances to get away vital cases. In areas such as mine, if there were an acute case of appendicitis to-night, with, no steamer due for probably three or four days, obviously it would be essential to get the patient away as soon as possible to a hospital where an operation could be performed. In some cases, that service has been arranged. I wish to stress, however, that we do have to rely upon air ambulances. This question is becoming more urgent in my own area and in the island of Mull, because recently the lifeboats which were delegated for that purpose have been moved further away. The lifeboat has now been moved from Tobermoray to Mallaig. The lifeboat is
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several hours journey away from Mull, and therefore in that large area there is no lifeboat immediately available for ambulance work.
I need hardly say that in all these matters if we could get an improved air service, both for passengers and for mail, it would be much appreciated. However, we have to face the fact that in many places the larger landing grounds required are not available. On the other hand, I carried out a little experiment myself last summer. I produced in considerable haste two landing strips 350 yards in length, and I was able to get two different types of aeroplane to land there. Therefore, I suggest to the Government that they might consider that possibility, and press the air companies concerned to look out for the smaller type of aeroplane, which does exist, I believe, and which could land on a small ground; or they might consider the use of the helicopter. I am no expert on any questions concerned with air, but I am informed that the helicopter although its performance is useful on certain occasions, is an expensive machine to produce. I understand that it is necessary to employ a specially trained pilot with a helicopter, and these machines may not be the answer to all these problems.
The last point of which I gave notice to the noble Lord is a small one, and I am not sure that I have any right to bring it to the notice of your Lordships' House. It is the question of lights. I have not had time to approach the Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses who are responsible in Scotland for these matters. However, I have consulted them in the past, and as a result of representations I made to them they were good enough to instal a light on a certain area of Skye where it was badly needed. My attention has been drawn to the fact that a light in the small channel between the islands of Coll and Tyree would save the present MacBrayne steamer service at least one or two hours on some of its routes, thereby creating a saving all round. That light would be a fairly easy one to put up. It is near the mainland and should not require much upkeep. It is not a really big lighthouse that is required. I hope that the Secretary of State will see his way to suggest to the Commissioners of Northern Lights that, if they have not done so already, they should consult with

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Messrs. MacBrayne and the other companies engaged in coastal traffic, to see where and if new and better lights for steamer services are required and justified. There is a tendency to concentrate most of the lights on the big shipping routes and rather to forget the small coastal traffic routes.
Those are the main points to which I hope the Government will give their active consideration. Finally, I would extend to the Secretary of State and his staff and officials, and to the noble Lord who is to reply—because he informs me that his knowledge of the Hebrides and the Orcadian Islands is not so perfect as his knowledge of London—an invitation to come and see the islands and study our problems for themselves. I can assure them that they will receive a warm welcome. In the past, we have had several visits from Secretaries of State, including one visit last year. I can assure the Government that those visits, however unproductive they may be of immediate results, do a tremendous amount of good. If the noble Lord or any of his friends come, I would encourage them to come not necessarily in August or September, when the sun is warm, the crops are green and turning to yellow and the area is thronged with tourists, but rather to choose midwinter time when the days are short and dark, the gales may be severe and the steamers accordingly delayed. Yet on every such day the work of producing food and caring for animals destined for the mainland goes on, always that population relying on the mainland for the few vital necessities which they require to maintain life.
5.10 p.m.
THE DUKE OF MONTROSE: My Lords, I think the crowded House and the packed Benches on the other side seem to indicate the great and real interest taken in Scottish and island affairs. Perhaps I may ask the indulgence of your Lordships for a few minutes, as I happen to be one of the very few members of your Lordships' House who have a home on an island on the West coast. I have lived there for over forty years, winter and summer, so I think I may claim to know something of what island life is like. I am glad that my noble friend, Lord Balfour of Burleigh—whose splendid
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work in presiding over the Scottish Hill Sheep Committee in 1944 we all appreciate—has raised this matter to-day, because if he is as successful in bringing out or wringing a policy from the Government as he was in what he did for sheep and agriculture, he will have done a good piece of work.
My noble friend refers in his Motion to the small islands. I have been among all the islands, and my impression is that whether one dwells on a small island or on a large island it is all much the same. The mode of life is the same, the difficulties are the same, the troubles are the same and the cures for which one prays are the same. Lord Balfour referred to the crofters. It may be that the original crofters were established by the 1886 Crofters Act. But the crofts were then bought from the Congested Districts Board, and in 1897 they were extended from 30 acres and £30 rent to 50 acres and £50 rent. Then, again, the Crofters Act was enlarged and extended to the whole of Scotland by the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act of 1911. So that in this Motion we are dealing not merely with crofters and small islands but with the conditions of small farmers on all the islands off the West coast.
My noble friend mentioned the word transport. The need for additional and extended transport is our basic trouble. We want more and better transport than we have now; all our troubles are based on that lack of adequate transport. I know that for years most of the transport has been done among the islands by the firm of MacBrayne, and I raise my hat to the good work that MacBrayne has done as a private individual in regard to shipping and carrying on the great industry of transport. Nevertheless, I feel that the day has come when modern requirements and modern needs far outstrip the ability of any private person to cope with the transport question. We want new and better ships, and the cost of shipbuilding and of running a ship is not a paying proposition to-day. I feel that not only shipping but other things have got beyond it. I feel there that the only remedy is either to increase the subsidies to a great extent or to nationalize the shipping along the West coast. I am not in the least opposed to private enterprise. I would not be sitting on the Liberal Benches if I were. But when industry grows to the stage that it becomes beyond

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the ability of a private individual to meet the difficulties, then there is, perhaps, a reason to consider nationalization. A nationalized industry can do things which no private enterprise can possible consider.
I keep in mind the idea of the hydroelectric scheme. In the island in which I live, we had an electrical scheme and it paid 6 per cent., but it dealt only with profitable enterprise. Then the Government nationalized electricity in the island, and they have extended it in a way that no private enterprise could do, although they lost £20,000 a year in carrying on that enterprise. That has also happened on two other islands, and the total loss will amount to £100,000 a year. Who bears that loss? The broad shoulders of the big cities or His Majesty's Treasury. Notwithstanding that loss, however, they have conferred a tremendous benefit on all the people in our island. But for this extension they would never have had electric light, they would never have had electricity for power and for heating when they could not get coal. It comes to the same with shipping. It would not pay, and the same broad shoulders would have to carry that loss. But it would confer a great benefit on all the people who live in these islands by increasing and improving the shipping, because they cannot carry on their industries owing to their inability to get transport. After all, the Government have nationalized the steamship traffic in the Clyde area. If they can nationalize it in the Clyde area, they can also nationalize it in the Arran area, and so confer a great benefit.
When it comes to shipping, we want to develop that, not so much north and south, since it runs up the Firths and the Minches; wherever possible, we want to develop shipping east and west. Take the trawler type vessels, capable of carrying a small cargo of thirty tons and twenty passengers over distances of ten, twelve or fifteen miles. If there were a whole network of these small east and west sailings it would confer a tremendous benefit on these people every day for at least seven months of the year. To wait for the steamer going north and south to turn round and come back again is too long and too slow a process. That will never pay. The islands of Canna, Rum, Eigg and Muck, for instance, are four islands that can get to
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the railway at Arisaig for all their goods but they have to wait for days for a steamer which goes right up north and right down again, and which on some occasions never comes at all. Therefore, I suggest that steamship travel should be developed.
That brings me to the pier question We must have piers before we have steamers. In the old days, when first I went to live in the island, it cost the laird £6,000 to build a pier. To-day it would cost £25,000 to build that pier, and it is beyond the means of any laird or any individual person. So the Government must take over the piers, because they are now beyond the means of the private individual. Having obtained the piers we must have good roads. There is many a township in the islands not connected with the main road; and townships should be connected to the main road. Moreover, on the main roads there should be good buses and good lorries running in connection with the small shipping services to the mainland. We must have that other traffic, otherwise we cannot get on. Ninety years ago there was not a single road in the island upon which I live, and all communication was carried out by means of ponies. There was not a single school, not a single pier. But the laird built the first pier, made the first road and established the first school. He was responsible, also, for putting on the first steamer service, and as a result of his work, the industry of the island throve and its prosperity increased. Tourists, too, were attracted. To-day the island is prosperous. I do not believe that there is a poor man on it, or one who is unemployed. That happy state of affairs has been brought about simply as a result of establishing and developing means of transport and travel. What has been done there could be done in all the islands. If the necessary transport were there for use, the whole story of the West coast of Scotland would be different.
New industries are needed if people are to be kept in the islands. What should the new industries be? Some say: "Make tourists ' keepsakes and things of that kind." That, I consider, would be no good; we want to develop in a natural way the prime industries of these areas. We must have freezing plants for the herrings. We want such plants in a good many of the islands so that the herrings

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can be frozen immediately after being caught, and shipped away fresh. Then there are great possibilities in the establishment of cheese factories. Such a factory was put up about eight years ago on the island where I live. Some idea of the progress which has been made will be gathered from these figures. Eight years ago the quantity of milk utilized in twelve months was 215,000 gallons. To-day the figure is 700,000 gallons. Take the case of another island—Islay. There is a cheese factory there, too, and the increase in output, in the last two years, has amounted to 80 per cent. In Coll, also, there is a cheese factory. In the old days we never had anything of that kind. Now, in addition to the development of industry in the ways that I have indicated, tourist traffic on our island has gone up substantially. Furthermore, ours is the first area in Great Britain to have complete T.T. herds, that is herds certified as completely free from tuberculosis. As I have mentioned, our cheese business is really a tremendous one.
Next I would refer to lobsters. We catch these in thousands off our shores. We catch them in creels, and then they have to be put in tanks hewn out of the rock and kept there till the steamer sails. Perhaps they may have to be kept for two or three days before they are sent off to London. Often, more than half the lobsters are dead when they reach their destination. What we want are collecting bases for lobsters, and an arrangement whereby they may be sent away immediately by seaplane. They could be flown direct from the islands to a seaplane landing base in the Thames. If that industry were developed you would be able to get lobsters in London, here, and elsewhere in perfectly fresh condition; and this would add appreciably to food supplies. Then look at freights. Freight charges are terrible now, and they impose a crippling burden on industry. When I send potatoes away I have to pay freight at the rate of 16s. a ton for the journey from the island on which I live to the shore of the mainland. When the potatoes arrive, they have to wait for a lorry; and for their transport by that vehicle I have to pay a further 7s. a ton. That is 23s. a ton freight charges. With a controlled price for potatoes no merchants will bother to come there. They all say that
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they cannot take our potatoes and deal with them at a profit when there are freight charges amounting to 23s. a ton.
The same applies to baled hay and baled straw. For those commodities there is a charge of £2 a ton. That is an extremely high price to pay for the transport of baled hay and baled straw going off the island. If the profit motive were removed, as it was in the case of electricity, we should have freights 25 per cent. to 30 per cent. cheaper than they are now; and that would make a tremendous difference to our agriculture and our means of living generally in the island. Another thing we want is water laid on in all the houses. Far too many houses have no water supply laid on, and no private individual can afford to pay for its installation to-day. For these reasons I think that we are justified in saying that if the Government want to keep these fine men and women in the islands they must do something for them. I would like to hear the Government spokesman say that they will produce a real policy for the Western Islands which will enable these poor peope to continue to live there. They cannot five on air, and they cannot live by bread alone. They have to work hard, and they must have industries provided for them. But we cannot make progress unless we get transport. So I ask the Government to give us some hope to-day that they will put forward a policy for these islands.
5.26 p.m.
LORD POLWARTH: My Lords, we have listened to two noble Lords who have a great deal more experience of island conditions than I have, and therefore I will confine myself to emphasising only two points, both of which were brought up by the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona. As I say, I am not speaking with anything like the same experience, but I have seen enough in the course of visits which I have paid to the islands and I have heard enough from those who live in them to know that this question of transport is the key to the whole subject of the prosperity of those areas. The two points which I wish to emphasise are, first, the importance of providing proper deep-water piers, and second, the development of air transport and in particular of air mail services. If your Lordships will allow me, I will give two examples taken from two islands, both of which are

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faced with similar problems though they are differently situated. First, I would speak of the island of Coll, off the West coast of Scotland, and, second, of Fair Isle, off the North coast.
The position in Coll is that there is a community with a flourishing or potentially flourishing agricultural industry. They have varying industries capable of development. There is, for example, the potential export of tuberculosis-free dairy stock to the mainland. There are other possibilities too. For example, Coll has great attractions as a tourist centre. It has most beautiful scenery, and I am told that the one hotel in the island is always completely booked up throughout the summer season. The snag comes with regard to the steamer services. They look very good on paper. Thrice a week—outward and back—there is a mail, passenger and freight service between the island and Oban. Once a week there is a freight service between the island and Glasgow.
But, again, there is a snag. There is no deep-water pier. Every single passenger, every single item of goods going to the island, has to undergo the process which Lord Strathcona has described. First, the passengers, or the goods, have to be lowered into a small boat alongside the steamer, and then they have to be ferried ashore. I need not tell your Lordships much more to illustrate the disadvantages of this landing process. If the weather is rough, it is often impossible to establish contact with the steamer, but, even when contact is established, if there is a lot of freight the steamer is delayed. The result is that the vessel arrives at Oban too late for connection to be made with the train and people who intend travelling south have to stay an extra night in the town. I could go on for a long time enumerating disadvantages of this sort, but, as I say, I do not think it is necessary for me to do so.
In Fair Isle the position with regard to transport is also extremely serious. Some of your Lordships may have seen an article on the subject which appeared recently in The Times. As in Coll, agriculture in Fair Isle is an important industry, though the island is not nearly so fertile: but there is a very valuable textile industry. The islanders produce jerseys and other textiles famous throughout the world. They produce the original
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genuine article for which there is a considerable demand. What is the transport position in Fair Isle? There is one boat, owned in this case by the islanders, which in normal times makes the journey once a week to the mainland of Shetland for mails, passengers and all freight. At the moment this boat is laid up, having been severely damaged in a storm, and the only contact with the outside world is by a drifter from Shetland once a fortnight. That is the position in regard to sea transport.
The other matter to which I wish to draw attention is air transport. I realise that a great many of the islands cannot possibly provide traffic for a regular service, although some of your Lordships may remember that before the war there was an inter-island air service in Orkney which went around from one island to the other. I am told the service was extremely well patronised, and in 1939 the men of Orkney were among the most air-minded in the country. The landing grounds and the aircraft are still there—I believe they are the identical aircraft used in 1939—but there are no signs of the service being restarted. I think there is the possibility for a similar service in Shetland for connecting the various islands, though there the problem of landing grounds is greater.
What is essential, however, is some form of air-ambulance service, to which reference has already been made. Very few of these islands have their own doctor. A number have only a nurse, as is the position in Fair Isle. I heard of two cases recently. One was of a woman on the island of Coll who had complications in childbirth and had to be taken to the mainland. She was first taken by car across the island, put in a boat and taken to the neighbouring island of Tiree. There she was removed by car to the airport and flown to Glasgow, where she was taken by ambulance to the Royal Infirmary. Two days later she died. There is no doubt that if an air ambulance had been available at Coll, her life might have been saved.
There was a case in the papers only last week of a woman in Mull who was taken ill while visiting Iona. She had to be conveyed by ambulance and boat to Oban. This took forty-eight hours and again the woman died—another case where an air ambulance might have saved a life. This applies to many of the

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islands. No doubt the fear of illness when out of reach of adequate medical aid is one of the causes which is driving people to leave the islands. Time is short and action must be taken. The populations of these islands are dwindling. The population of Coll in 1911 was 390, and it had dropped by last year to 210. In Fair Isle eighty years ago the population was 300; to-day it is 80. A position is being reached in some of the islands where there will soon not be enough young active men to man the essential services—mailboats, lifeboats and the like. When that position is reached, it is the finish of the islands.
I have indicated two methods by which transport services may be improved. It seems to me that there are three courses open to the Government with regard to the islands. First, they can leave them as they are, to continue with a dwindling population and a wasting economy until the point is reached at which it is impossible for them to go on. Secondly, they can take the drastic step of evacuating the population, as was in fact done in 1931 with St. Kilda. I do not question the rightness of that decision. St. Kilda is right outside the sphere of existing or possible communications in the islands. But that is a drastic step to take. Your Lordships have heard of the clearances in the last century. Many a time the iniquities of the clearances have been held up before us. If it came to a State clearance, I do not think that would be any more justifiable than the clearances by the landlords in the last century. Thirdly—and I think this is the right method—the Government can take vigorous action to restore prosperity to the islands. I know there are many difficulties, but this action is clearly beyond the resources of individual landowners and the local authorities. As the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, told us, the product of the rates in that part of the country is quite inadequate to meet the costs.
Some of your Lordships may ask if it is really worth it. Strictly economically, perhaps it is not, but I think this problem must be looked at from other angles than that of mere economy. The people of these islands, as citizens and taxpayers, have the right to live in the place of their choosing and to be provided with as many of the services and amenities of civilisation as can reasonably be provided. I
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think it is true to say that a prosperous island community is one of the greatest assets this country can have. Surely it is a grave indictment of our present society if, in spite of the march of progress, we are still unable to bring the benefits of progress to the people who live in these remote parts. I ask the Government to do everything in their power to restore and maintain the prosperity of the islands.
5.38 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, we have covered a good deal of ground, but we must not forget that we spend a great deal of time considering the planning of our towns. That is no doubt very important but it is equally important that the resources of the whole area of this island and, I would put it, of the British Empire, should be used to the fullest degree. This problem provides one example of the disequilibrium in our planning over a number of years. During the past two hundred years the population of the Highlands has dropped from about one-quarter of the population of Scotland until to-day it is one-twentieth. That has been the result of two things—emigration and concentration in towns. I believe it is correct to say that during the last seventy years emigration from the Highlands has been about equal to the total population at the present time. That is a very big figure. It represents the measure of the difficulty which this Government has—and any Government of this country would have—at the present time.
This is a struggle between nature and man. There was a time when man found it worth while to go out to these outlying islands. Now, he is being driven back by the forces of nature. Already we have seen islands formerly occupied which he no longer finds possible to occupy, or at least which he has no longer the will to occupy. One example is St. Kilda, which was evacuated with the assistance of the Scottish Office. But the struggle is not going on without counter-attack. Certainly, within my knowledge, one small island halfway to St. Kilda has been re-occupied in the course of the last two or three years. I think that is representative of what the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, said—that the people themselves are struggling to re-establish their position.

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I do not want to limit their scope. There is a notable economic advantage in the Western islands in their export of both cattle and sheep which to-day we must consider important. I have no doubt it is true, as Doctor Johnson said, that an eye accustomed to flowery pastures and waving harvests is astonished and repelled by the vast extent of hopeless sterility. I have no doubt that many Eastern county farmers would be somewhat discouraged if they were presented with the prospect of farming in the Western islands. The fact is that if these men who are now living there should go, it would be very difficult to find others to take their place, or who would be willing or able to work the land to as great advantage.
A further point which I do not think has been mentioned to-day is the personal service in the Armed Forces of the men who lived there. It is very considerable indeed. I could give several illustrations of that. One is that in the first forty years of the last century 10,000 men joined the British Army from the Isle of Skye alone. They provided something over fifty officers of the rank of Colonel, and over twenty of the rank of General. That is a substantial number for one island whose total population today is only 10,000. There are other examples which I could give, but I will not delay your Lordships with them. I am sure the Government will agree that the object is to maintain a healthy, strong race which can contribute to the welfare of the community, both by their personal service, and economically.
The people are there for two reasons. One is their love of the soil, which they consider, and are proud to consider, as their hereditary right—which is, indeed, the case. Secondly, they are there because they have that sense of independence, which I think we must all respect—an independence which, if I may say so, bodes ill for any leadership which goes to the point of compulsion or direction. It is not a character which makes them easily brought into co-operation. Their heritable rights were, if I may say so, brilliantly solved by the Crofters' Act mentioned by the noble Duke. I believe it was largely the work of the late Lord Sands, and resolved a long and difficult story of land tenure.
If it is agreed that a healthy and strong population is required, there are three
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essential needs. The first is economic. The crofters' position is basically agricultural, but he requires a side industry. Not only does he require a side industry—that is to say, a secondary industry—to which he can give his time, whether it be weaving, fishing or boat building, but, over and above that, a man who reaches mature age requires other economic work or he will leave the island. It is this departure from the islands during maturity of life that provides an un-balanced community, with, shall I say, too many old people and too many children, and not enough people of the middle and more vigorous years of life. It is largely to restore that balance that an economic outlet of some character is urgently required. I must congratulate the Scottish office upon the work they have done in regard to seaweed for chemical purposes. It is an important development, which may some day take the place of the kelp industry. I hope the noble Lord will have something to say as to the progress made in that matter.
The second point is that of amenity, which obviously includes houses and various amenities of life. I think something is done in the way of mobile cinemas, but I believe more could be dons in the way of houses. It is regrettable that the original grants made under the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, have been rescinded. I think they are now made under the Housing (Agricultural Population) Act, 1938. I would like to ask the noble Lord who is going to reply if he can state what are the terms under which assistance is provided by that Act. As I understand it, it is 50 per cent. of the replacement cost or £160, whichever is the less. It is manifestly clear that £160 in any circumstances cannot provide half a house at the present time.
I am informed that the method of obtaining assistance under this Act is so slow and cumbersome as to be calculated to discourage anyone from proceeding under it. I do not know whether the noble Lord has any evidence of that, but I suggest that these people, who are the only ones in the country who, in effect, build their own houses—are worthy of special consideration at a time when housing is so short and houses are so badly-needed. There is this further point. Before the war it was possible to supply certain materials—wood and cement—to

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assist the crofters in building their own houses. Is it possible to make available the supply of materials at the present time? There is one other point about amenity. In spite of what one noble Lord said, I submit that in isolated communities there are few greater benefits than the provision of electricity, with all the advantages connected with it in the form of the radio, and the facilities of life which it brings. With a slight acceleration of the development of the North Scotland Hydro-Electric Corporation, I think great encouragement would be given to the crofters to remain where they are at the present time.
Much has been said about transport, and I do not propose to recapitulate it. However, transport is obviously the main point. It does not matter whether it is transport to the Outer Hebrides, or beyond, transport is the basic trouble. I suggest, with great respect, that this problem should not be presented to the Government as an unending question of subsidy. I know what their answer will be, and so does everybody else. I suggest that what is required is a lowering of the fare, so as to increase the traffic. There is no doubt that traffic was better in former days. There is no doubt that there was a better steamer service in 1914 than there is to-day. Why is that? I submit, very respectfully, that the statement made in the Lewis Association Report is a very serious one. It says:
" To-day the steamer service is slower, less frequent and more costly than it was in 1914."
If I may quote a specific example (I have not been able to check this with the timetable of 1914), I may say that I am informed that there was a passenger steamer which crossed to Lochmaddy twice a day in 1914, whereas to-day there is one three times a week.
I would also like to mention the question of roads. The road grant of 1935, which I believe was about £6,000,000 for the Highlands as a whole, was a tremendous boon. Roads were built up, and in many ways it completely altered the life of the country. While there are a great many regions which have bad roads, there are others which have no roads at all. The Hilary Report of 1945 spoke of forty-five districts in the Island with no roads at all; and that does not include Orkney and
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Shetland, where 133 districts were reported. I think the quality of the roads built is better than is absolutely necessary, and many of the outlying districts would be satisfied with something along which one could get a cart. I asked the noble Lord for certain information in regard to one district, which I know has been clamouring for a road for a very long time; they have been settled twenty-five years by the Department of Agriculture and have no road. If the noble Lord can say anything about that, I shall be glad. I imagine he will probably say that it is the intention one day to put a road there but it is not immediately practicable.
I have mentioned roads and steamers. There is one other point about steamers to which I would like to draw attention, because it is, after all, a Government responsibility. I have here the Sailing Bill of McCallum, Orme & Co., and I would like to draw the attention of His Majesty's Government to the conditions of carriage, because this is a responsibility which will come to them. This company, naturally enough, repudiated the idea that they were common carriers. They say further that all goods are carried at owner's risk—that is, perhaps, natural enough—but they also state that they are not liable for theft, robbery, loss or pilferage by persons in the employment of the ship owner. That seems to be carrying it rather far. Further, they say that they will not be liable for breakages which occur from any act of neglect or mistake of the master, mariners, engineers, or crew. That is carrying the clause of liability rather far, and I hope His Majesty's Government—who now, through MacBrayne's, have a controlling interest—will keep that point in mind.
I would like to say a word on the flying services. We were told, perhaps two years or more ago, that air services were going to be developed with great energy, imagination and initiative. We all know that that has not happened. We know that we have not seen that development which was promised us. Events have happened to the contrary. I should add, of course, that for various reasons very special things were promised to Scotland, more than to the rest of the country. There have been disturbing rumours in the papers this week to which I must draw attention. So far as I know, the men who were engaged immediately in pioneering

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the routes of the Outer Islands have now—or so the rumour says—been discharged, or are being discharged, by B.E.A. Mr. Nicholson has gone, Captain Barclay I am told is going, Mr. Cummings is going, and so also is Captain Fresson. If the noble Lord can deny that, or say that some statement will be made, I shall be grateful, but I assure your Lordships that these matters are causing considerable concern. The pioneering work they were doing was important, and the Hilary Report, which was made in 1939, said:
" We heard many expressions of appreciation and praise for the manner in which these air services are carried out."
I do not think those remarks will be heard to-day, because on all hands there is a feeling that the air lines are being run by a distant bureaucracy in which the local men are powerless pawns and cannot do much to help. That is the way in which it is being operated now, and I do not believe it is in the interests of any airline that it should continue on those lines.
I should particularly like to stress the fact that nothing has been done in the way of using water—namely, in using flying boats or seaplanes. It is obvious that on the West coast of Scotland, as also in the Orkneys and Shetlands, there are large numbers of places which are particularly well suited to such operations, where it is quite impossible to use land planes. Why has nothing been done before? There is nothing revolutionary or even new about it. It is something which is well known, and I am sorry to see that no effort of any kind seems to have been made to introduce these services, which could be done without great difficulty. I would point out that the population of these areas are essentially part of the great mosaic of the British people. We were discussing this subject on a much wider canvas last week, but this matter is essentially a part of the same picture, although perhaps a small part. None the less, I submit that it is an important part, and one worthy of careful consideration.
There are three points I would like to emphasise. The first is transport, the second is amenity, and the third is the economy of life. I suggest to the noble Lord that the Hilary Report brought out one matter which is not without importance to-day. It suggested that there
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should be a Highland Commissioner, and I would like to ask the noble Lord whether he would consider the appointment of an Island Commissioner. There are to-day a large number of big corporations and Departments centralised either in Edinburgh or London, which have no immediate tie-up with the locality. These corporations or Departments enter deeply into the life of the people who live there. If I may give a list, I would remind you that there are the Transport Commission, British European Airways, the Hydro Electric Board, the Forestry Commission, the Herring Board, the Board of Trade, the Department of Agriculture, and the Ministry of Food. No doubt the noble Lord has had to draw information from all those Departments in preparing his reply. I wonder if he has found it easy to get from so many different sources all the information he has required, because any difficulty he has had is, of course, multiplied a thousand-fold for those living further from the scene.
I will not detain your Lordships any longer, except to say this. If His Majesty's Government can state that it is their definite intention to maintain the population on the outer fringe because they think they are worth while, it will give a great deal of satisfaction. It will give much more satisfaction if they can state the effective action they are prepared to take to carry out that policy, and can further say that they do not in any way regard the Outer Islands as an unknown or frightening burden which they do not know how to carry.
5.56 p.m.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I think a stranger to Britain, listening to the debate here during the past two hours, would have thought it rather a wonderful thing that your Lordships' House should have devoted a large part of this evening to a friendly and helpful discussion of the well-being of a small number of sturdy and excellent people who live in an area so graphically described by the noble Lord who initiated this debate as the "Edge of the World." The noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, sympathized with me that I had never had the pleasure of going there. I was reading a guide book, which was the nearest I could get to being there. That guide book invited visitors to visit "the land where time stands still." If

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that description is correct, then certainly your Lordships have done something this afternoon to try to get some modern methods into those islands.
It is obviously impossible for me to cover all the points or answer all the questions which have been put to me this afternoon, and I do not think your Lordships would desire me to do so, but if I omit to deal with any questions about which your Lordships are keen I will see that they are considered and that a reply is sent. I think the best answer I could give would be by trying to draw what the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, called the picture that he set out to paint, and which has been so well continued by other speakers in this interesting debate. I would like to try to complete that picture by describing shortly what the present position is. Before I do so, however, I want to accept the challenge—I thought it was a challenge—from the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, to state briefly what the Government policy is. I can do that in almost one single sentence. It is no part of the policy of the Government to evacuate the small islands off the Scottish coast. On the contrary we are, like noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, anxious to see these island communities more firmly established as part of our national life.
The debate to-day has given evidence of the great diversity of the problems facing these islands. I am sure that noble Lords who have spoken in this debate will not expect me to be in a position to propound final solutions to all the problems that they have raised. Before going on to deal with some of the specific matters raised, however, I should like to refer briefly to some of the things which have been or are now being done. In the first place, I would remind your Lordships that in January of last year the Secretary of State appointed an Advisory Panel on the Highlands and Islands to advise him on the carrying out of concerted plans for promoting the best economic use of resources and capacity in the Highlands and Islands. That Panel have already made a number of important and useful recommendations. I think the Panel includes the Members of Parliament for all the Highland constituencies, as well as representatives of the county councils and other authorities; and they are continually addressing themselves
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to matters of the kind raised to-day.
As has been stated over and over again, one of the chief keys to the Highland problem is transport. Everyone agrees that the provision of reasonable transport facilities is fundamental to the wellbeing of the islands. The question of sea communications naturally comes first. This involves the provision, improvement and maintenance of piers, and the provision of steamer services. The Highland Advisory Panel have recognised the importance of these matters, and the transport group which they have set up have been making a systematic and thorough review of the pier needs in the Highlands and Islands. Meantime, the more urgent cases are not being neglected. A number of island piers are at present under discussion between the Department of Agriculture and the county councils concerned. In view of existing restrictions on capital expenditure and current shortages of steel and timber, it will unfortunately not be possible to go ahead in the immediate future as quickly as we would all like, but every effort will be made to have the most urgent needs met.
In the case of the island of Foula, to which the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, referred, the Department of Agriculture in 1946 offered a grant of 75 per cent. towards the cost of extending the pier; and, as the noble Lord himself indicated, this work is now being undertaken. The question of a further grant for the provision of landing facilities and a boat-shed is now being sympathetically considered. Some rearrangement of the steamer services to the Western Isles is being effected as a result of the taking over by Messrs. MacBrayne of the services which were formerly run by another company. For many years these services have been subsidised by the Government, and the amount of the subsidy (in the current financial year it is estimated to amount to £166,000, in addition to a payment of about £38,000 by the Post Office for the conveyance of mails) is an indication of the importance which the Government attach to keeping the rates charged to a reasonable level.
Practical steps are also being taken to effect improvements to the Western Isles steamer service. A faster and better steamer has been provided for the Stornoway run, and the company are now going

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ahead with the re-engining of other vessels. The services to Orkney and Shetland continue to function without any general provision for a subsidy. The former service to Fair Isle was interrupted by the damage suffered last year by the vessel "Good Shepherd" which made the trip. The Department of Agriculture are now making arrangements to assist the owner to have the vessel repaired and to resume service. Meantime, a fortnightly return trip, based on Lerwick, is maintained with the aid of a grant of £55 to £60 per trip for the conveyance of mails. There is also a weekly mail service from Foula to Shetland, provided by a local vessel—
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Is that the open boat?
LORD MORRISON: I presume that it is the open boat, but I understand that it is specially built for that purpose. This vessel also operates under contract with the Post Office for the conveyance of mails. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, raised the question of facilities for the transport of cattle. I will bring this matter to the notice of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland so that he may examine whether any improvement in this respect can be effected.
After transport, housing is perhaps the most vital necessity, and one of the earliest recommendations of the Highland Advisory Panel was in favour of further assistance to crofters for the provision, improvement or rebuilding of their houses. The amounts of the grants available have been increased since the war, and it is proposed to extend the operation of the grants until 1953. The Department of Agriculture loan scheme, which was suspended during the war, has been revived. The increased level of building costs, however, has made further assistance necessary, and my right honourable friend is now seeking power to make grants to crofters towards the cost of erection, improvement, or rebuilding of their dwelling houses, and steadings—
LORD BALFOUR of BURLEIGH: That is the whole point. On what terms? Is there any hope of modification of the terms? Will the Government insist on the points about full water supply, internal sanitation, and so forth? What we want to see is a modified grant for modified conditions.
LORD MORRISON: I will send the noble Lord an answer to that question if he will allow me. I have not got it by me.
It has been suggested that there should be a modified standard for houses in these remote islands. The Government have felt, however, that since it is their general policy to bring the standard of amenities available in these islands up to a level which will ensure the maintenance of these communities it would be unwise to accept the proposition that the standard there should be lower than elsewhere. They hope, therefore, that the new grants scheme which I have mentioned will enable the islanders to provide themselves with houses which comply with the accepted modern standards. With housing there must be considered the provision of water supplies and drainage facilities. A large programme of water supplies and drainage work to be undertaken in the rural areas has been submitted by Scottish local authorities. To date, works estimated to cost £1,975,190 have been provisionally selected for grant. Thirty-eight island water schemes have gone a stage further and have been the subject of firm offers of 85 per cent. grant, and in the existing shortage of labour and materials the question of when these schemes can be put in hand is at present under active consideration.
An important factor in retaining and developing the smaller communities in the Highlands and Islands will be the spread of the supply of electric current throughout the area. The waters of the larger islands, such as Skye, Lewis, Mull, Islay, and Jura, are possible sources of hydroelectric power but, meanwhile, arrangements are being made to distribute electricity from Diesel engine stations. This is also being done in smaller islands, where no potential water power is available. Distribution schemes have already been approved for the larger islands including the mainlands of Orkney and Shetland, Skye, Arran, Islay, and Lewis, and also for the small islands of Seil and Luing, while schemes are being considered for both North and South Uist and for Mull, Iona, Colonsay, Coll, and Tiree—
THE DUKE OF MONTROSE: May I ask if the Government have considered the question of driving engines by gas from peat, instead of buying oil, which means

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dollars? It has been done most successfully in many places, and it seems to me that that is a method that should be tried or examined by the Government.
LORD MORRISON: I could not answer that question off-hand, but I will certainly bring it to the notice of the Department concerned, though I have no doubt that it has been tried already.
It would be wrong to omit a brief reference to the medical services, which have been developed with the aid of the Highlands and Islands Medical Services Fund. The advent of the National Health Service will make no real difference to the general practitioner service, except that the patients here, as elsewhere, will no longer have to pay even a modified fee. It will become the local health authorities' duty to provide a nursing service, though they will normally continue to use the existing voluntary bodies. The hospital service will become the responsibility of the Northern Regional Hospital Board, with head-quarters at Inverness, and the North-Eastern Board, at Aberdeen, covering Orkney and Shetland. It will be the Boards' duty to develop the existing service, and they will take over the projects at present under consideration, such as a new hospital for Shetland and maternity units at Kirkwall and Inverness. Air ambulance services are already available from most of the larger islands, and these will be developed as and when airfields and suitable aircraft become available. The extension of those services to some of the islands which can provide only limited landing facilities raises the question of the type of aircraft to be used. This matter is being further discussed at present. In passing, I would also mention that the Scottish Education Department, the Scottish Council of Social Service and the education authorities in many parts of the Highlands are giving active consideration to the question of setting up community centres, village halls and other facilities of this type for the Highlands and Islands areas. Another development in this particular field has been the setting up of a Highlands and Islands Film Guild, under whose auspices regular film shows, combining entertainment and education, are provided in many parts of the Highlands and Islands.
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The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, has made special reference to the island of Foula. I have mentioned the present mail-boat service to the island and the repairs to the pier which are being carried out with the assistance of the Department of Agriculture. The noble Lord has also suggested that there is a need on the island for winter occupations, such as knitting and weaving. These industries are of considerable importance in the Shetlands, and it is natural to expect that, despite their isolation from the mainland, the people of Foula would be willing to participate in that work. Any suggestions put forward for assisting these or other industries in the island will be most sympathetically examined to see if anything can be done to help. With regard to the provision of machinery to cut and carry peat on the island, it seems doubtful whether peat cutting on the scale suitable for the one hundred or so inhabitants of Foula would lend itself to mechanization in any way. As to the need for lime for the soil, I need hardly say that Foula, like any other area, is eligible for the 50 per cent. subsidy which is paid by the Government on lime for agricultural land.
The noble Lord referred to illegal trawling. The Government are fully alive to the importance of preventing it. The fishery protection fleet, which during the war years and for some time thereafter was on naval service, is now in commission again and, indeed, has been strengthened. Special attention will be given to the areas to which the noble Lord has referred. On the problems of Foula in general, I should add that I understand that some members of the Highlands Advisory Panel will be visiting the Orkneys and Shetlands in the near future, and it may be possible for them to include Foula in their itinerary. I will certainly see that the noble Lord's observations on the island are passed on to them. I may add that any influence which I have will be used in favour of a visit to Foula in the near future. The noble Lord ended with a good-humoured tilt at nationalization, which was afterwards taken up by the noble Duke, Lord Montrose. It was not so much a tilt at it as a demand for further nationalization. I can only say that the shipping services have not been nationalized. Those to Orkney and Shetland are not

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even subsidized. The special question of a boat for Foula will, of course, be further considered, in view of the noble Lord's representations.
I welcome the return to the fold of the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, after so many years' absence. I hope that the experience which he had when he was in the position that I now occupy was not the cause of his staying away for so long afterwards; that is rather a fearsome thought to me. I appreciate his tribute to the telephone service and to the efficiency of the workmen. I will see that that tribute is brought to their notice. I have already dealt generally with the questions of shipping services, piers and air ambulance services. I realise the importance of the points he has made about the inter-relationship between the provision of piers, the speed and efficiency of the steamer service and the road services radiating from piers. All these together form what has been described as the "Road to the Isles." I understand that the Highland Panel Survey, to which I have referred, is designed to work out the basis of a properly integrated service.
Coming to the question of lights, I will certainly convey to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State the noble Lord's suggestion that he should consult with the Northern Lighthouse Commissioners about the provision of new or better lights where required. There has, I am assured, already been some consultation with the Commissioners with regard to particular lights, and I am sure that the suggestions made by the noble Lord will be investigated. The noble Lord cheered me up considerably by his warm invitation that I should pay my first visit to the Western Islands. I was only sorry that he qualified it later by placing a ban on August and September and by inviting me to spend New Year's Day there. However, before the next debate on this subject in your Lordships' House, if I am still in my present position, I hope to be able to say that I have visited those places. Alternatively, I would invite the noble Lord to occupy my post temporarily for a few months, while I go to stay in the Western Islands.
The noble Duke, Lord Montrose, made what I thought was an excellent and practical speech. The noble Duke will appreciate that I have no time to deal in detail with the question of herrings,
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cheese and lobsters—all of which points he raised. However, I have a long memorandum on the study of the methods of herring fishing. It may surprise the noble Duke to know that this has been my principal hobby for a great many years, although I do not speak about it publicly. However, out of consideration for your Lordships' time, I will not deal with this question now. If the noble Duke will allow me, I will send him the latest information about quick-freezing and other methods of marketing herring that are being experimented with and applied in some parts of Scotland.
The ownership of piers in the Highlands and Islands presents a picture of great diversity. Shipping companies, Government Departments, the British Transport Commission, county councils, town councils, local pier trusts and private owners are all involved. The Highlands Advisory Panel are anxious to see that proper provision is made for the maintenance of all essential piers, and the investigations which they are pursuing are designed with that object in view. With regard to the question of ministerial responsibility, the piers formerly owned by the railway companies come within the general sphere of the Minister of Transport. The Secretary of State is responsible for the administration of the Harbours, Piers and Ferries (Scotland) Act, 1937, under which local authorities may take over marine works. He also administers the Congested Districts (Scotland) Act, 1897, under which he is empowered to give grants to local authorities for the provision or improvement of piers in the seven Highland counties. It is true that in recent years a number of privately owned piers on the Firth of Clyde have been closed. Some of them are outside the scope of "congested districts," and therefore do not qualify for assistance under the 1897 Act.
With the improvement of roads and road services, it may not be necessary to keep in existence all the piers which were required a generation ago. The loss of some of these piers may be regrettable from the local point of view, but with costs of maintenance and reconstruction as high as they are to-day—as the noble Lord himself pointed out—it is understandable that the owners may be unable to keep up some of the less remunerative piers. No powers are available under which grants can be made to private

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owners, but where a pier is needed it is open to the local authority to act under the Harbours, Piers and Ferries (Scotland) Act, 1937, and, if the pier is within the congested districts, to apply to the Secretary of State for a construction or improvement grant.
The noble Lord, Lord Polwarth emphasized transport delays. His speech brought to my mind the last time I landed at Prestwick Airport, having flown over from North America. It took me exactly two hours longer to get from Prestwick to my home in London than it did from North America to Prestwick. The British European Airways Corporation are at present operating, as the noble Lord knows, a number of scheduled services to those Scottish Islands equipped with suitable airfields. These services, some of which are maintained by D.H. 89 aircraft and some by Dakotas, cover the main centres of population in the islands, but because services with the small D.H. 89 aircraft are necessarily uneconomic, and the traffic is not sufficient to fill the Dakotas throughout the winter and summer, the operations involve a considerable loss. Any extension of the present services must, I am afraid, await an improvement in the general economic situation. I understand that it is the policy of the Postmaster-General to develop the use of air services for the conveyance of mail between the Scottish mainland and the islands to the fullest possible extent, consistent with reasonable financial justification. Unless any unforeseen obstacles arise the position should soon be reached in which the benefits of air conveyance of mail are enjoyed by all the Western Islands which are served by the regular commercial air services of the Corporation. I agree that the advent of helicopters—a point which Lord Strathcona also raised—may well have a decisive effect on the pattern of the Island services. But these possibilities lie in the future. Helicopter types in production to-day are small single-engined aircraft, with high operating costs, unsuitable for regular passenger-carrying services. The institution of scheduled helicopter services, or helicopter ambulance services, flying over the sea would, I am afraid, be premature at the moment.
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Finally, I come to the remarks of the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk. In regard to the rumours of discharges of civil aviation personnel, I regret that I have no information. So far as I know, they have appeared in some newspapers, but I cannot answer his question, and the Department concerned is not represented here at the moment. The question of giving financial assistance for the construction of a road to link the crofting townships of Lochportain and Cheesebay with the main road in North Uist is at present under active consideration. That is the way in which I will put it, and the noble Earl is sufficient a politician to understand what that means. The noble Earl continued the debate on the same high level. He reinforced that the British race in these areas are well worth preserving, and emphasised their independence by what Robert Burns called the glorious privilege of being independent.
With regard to the Scottish Seaweed Research Association, financed from the Development Fund up to 90 per cent. of their expenditure, they are actively pursuing their survey and development work. They have already established that there exist seaweed supplies necessary to maintain in Scotland a considerable seaweed industry, and they are now tackling the question of the economic harvesting of the weed. That is the key to the future of this industry—whether it can be economically harvested. The noble Earl's suggestion of an Island Commissioner I will pass on to the appropriate Department. I have delayed your Lordships a long time in trying to cover some parts of this debate, which might profitably have gone on for many days. In a debate such as we have had, and interesting as it has been, it has been possible to cover only the fringe of the many subjects raised; but I have done my best. I would like to conclude by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh for having raised this Motion. By doing so, he has initiated a first-class debate. The number of helpful and constructive suggestions put forward, and the general desire of those of your Lordships who have spoken to do their best to raise the standard of living and to preserve the well-being and amenities of the people who live on what Lord Balfour called "the edge of the world," make this a memorable occasion.
6.26 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Strathcona, there was once a time when I had the privilege of answering for Scottish affairs in your Lordships' House. My noble friend who has replied may agree that I have reason to feel some sympathy with him when I venture to tell you that I was responsible for piloting through your Lordships' House, among other things, the Scottish Churches Bill. I was exposed to a barrage of a somewhat different kind, but one—I can assure my noble friend—which was no less abstruse than many of the points which we have fired at him to-day. I would like to thank noble Lords who supported this Motion. I was interested to hear my noble friend the Duke of Montrose so warmly support nationalisation. My noble friend kept on saying that the Government ought to take over all the piers. I wondered whether it was a further reference to some new proposals for reforming your Lordships' House!
I would like to express great gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, for the reply which he has given us, and in particular the explicit declaration that he gave on the question of policy. The noble Lord said that it is no part of Government policy to evacuate these small islands; that, on the contrary, there is anxiety to see the island communities once more firmly established as part of our national life. Nothing could be more explicit, and nothing could give greater satisfaction to the communities who will read this debate. Secondly, on the question of measures of help, the noble Lord could not have been more helpful. He promised us certain things and he indicated certain measures which are to be taken. I would like to underline one point. In regard to cattle all he committed himself to—and it was pretty cautious—was that his right honourable friend would see whether any improvement could be made in the cattle-boat. He did not refer to my suggestion that they should apply to the Admiralty. I hope they will give the Admiralty a chance to look through their stocks to see if they can produce something. I am sure we can enlist the interest of the Lords of the Admiralty—seafaring men as I suppose they all are—and if that can be done I am sure they will do what they can to help.
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On one point only was I disappointed, and that was in regard to the noble Lord's reply about housing. I do not know whether he will take it as a compliment or the reverse, but I thought it was a typical Civil Service reply. We were told that it was important that the housing should be brought up to the accepted modern standards. We were told that the policy was to bring the standard of housing in Foula up to a level which would ensure the maintenance of the community. If the Government try to bring all the houses in Foula up to what they call the accepted modern standards, that will be just the way to ensure the elimination of the community in Foula. I beg the noble Lord to bring his influence to tear on his right honourable friend to induce him to consider seriously whether the administrative difficulties of having a separate standard for these remote places cannot be overcome. Administration is made for the people; the people are not made for the administration. I earnestly implore the noble Lord, knowing, as I do, that we have his good will, to try his best to see whether these Civil Service bureaucrats cannot be made to show a little more flexibility in this matter. May I add that I would not like it to be thought, because of any warmth I may have shown just now, that I am not conscious of the great trouble which the noble Lord has taken, or ungrateful for the substantial promises which he has made? I am sure that I am echoing the feelings of all my noble friends when I say to him: "Thank you very much." I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

CERTIFICATE FROM EXAMINERS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:

ROUND OAK STEEL WORKS (LEVEL CROSSINGS). [H.L.]
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
BEVERLEY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
COVENTRY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
SALFORD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee
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for the Consideration of the said Bills—namely,

E. Beatty,

V. Bridport,

L. Foley,

L. O'Hagan (Chairman),

L. Amulree:

Agreed to, and the said Lords appointed accordingly.
House adjourned at half past six o'clock.