HL Deb 27 November 1947 vol 152 cc997-1003

4.5 p.m.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The Viscount Mersey in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 [Delegation to education committee]:

On Question, Whether Clause 4 shall stand part of the Bill:

LORD SALTOUN

On this question, I would remind your Lordships that on Second Reading this Bill was described by the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, as a non-contentious measure, but since that time and only very recently, in the course of the last two days, I have received a great many communications from Scotland which show that this Clause 1s, on the contrary, very contentious. I have a letter also complaining that great difficulty has been experienced by parties interested in getting copies of the Bill from the Stationary Office in Edinburgh. As your Lordships will be aware, Clause 4 deals with a matter that has been a battle ground for more than a generation—the control of education in the counties of Scotland. It has varied from the old school boards to exceptional education authorities and to the county council education committees, and now we are faced with a further change. I am not saying it is not right. I have not had time to examine it. But I think in a matter of this kind that the parties interested should have a chance of making their representations before the Bill comes to be debuted in your Lordships' House. Therefore I beg my noble friend to arrange for an interval between Committee and the Report Stage, with liberty to bring this matter up again on Report, in order that noble Lords interested in the matter may have time to inform themselves about public opinion in Scotland and to form their own opinion on a rather thorny question.

EARL DE LA WARR

For an Englishman to intervene on a matter affecting Scotland, where Scotsmen are disagreeing, is something like an outsider daring to intervene between man and wife. But I am not going to address myself to the merits of the question. What I wish to say is simply this: I think noble Lords will agree that it is most important for the conduct of the business of this House that if we are told a matter is non-contentious, we should be absolutely sure it is so. I feel that this is due to some misunderstanding, but if the noble Lord in charge of the Bill will assist us by post-poning the date of the Report stage that would be helpful.

LORD MORRISON

I think the noble Lord who has just spoken should be congratulated on daring to intervene in a Scottish debate. At the same time, I hope this will not be the only occasion on which he will do so. The more our English colleagues take an interest in Scottish affairs, the better it will be for us. The noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, was good enough to give me notice yesterday that he proposed to raise this point, and I am obliged to him., In regard to the statement I made that the Bill, I was advised, was non-contentious, perhaps I ought to have qualified that by saying, "so far as any Bill from Scotland can be non-contentious." I had, however, during the many years in which I have not lived in Scotland perhaps forgotten that there is no such thing as a non-contentious Bill in Scotland.

What I meant was this. Let us begin at the beginning. I think your Lordships will agree that, with the exception of Clause 4, there is no question whatsoever. That limits us to Clause 4. When speaking on the Second Reading in your Lordships' House I described the extraordinary circumstances under which this Bill reached the Statute Book. It was introduced in the days of the National Government and had only just received its Second Reading and gone to the Scottish Grand Committee in another place when the National Government came to an end. That Government was replaced by what was called the Caretaker Government, and as a General Election was about to take place in a very short time, it was necessary that something should be done about the Bill. I suppose the usual channels, as they are called, agreed that, since all Parties desired the Bill, it was as well to let it go through. Therefore, there was a very short discussion in the Scottish Grand Committee and very little in your Lordships' House, but during the discussions in another place this particular clause was discussed at some length and was added to the Bill.

Since then there has been a decision in the Courts by which—without going into technicalities; I am speaking with no legal knowledge—the Clause 1s now interpreted as not carrying out what it was intended to carry out. The object of this Bill, therefore, is so to alter the clause as to make sure it really does what it was originally intended to do. The original Bill was non-contentious and the only effect of this Bill, apart from the smaller points, is to make clear what apparently was not clear before—probably due to the haste with which the matter had to be dealt with in 1945—that a county council shall delegate its powers in education in Scotland to an education committee. That position has been successfully challenged in the Courts, and it is now desired to make the matter clear beyond a shadow of doubt.

I do not think it necessary, nor do I think the noble Lord desires, that we should discuss the point at this stage. What the noble Lord asks is merely that there should be time to consider the matter. The noble Lord, Lord Polwarth, who is not here to-day, wrote me a letter in regard to the difficulty of getting copies of the Bill in Scotland, and I have replied to him. I am sorry I have not a copy of the letter which I sent in reply to the noble Lord, but the answer I gave was that there was an unexpectedly large demand for the Bill when it arrived in Edinburgh, that it was sold out very soon, and that there was a delay of a day or two before additional copies could be obtained. I would like to assure the House that there was No 1ntention whatsoever on the part of the Government to rush the Bill through, and there is no earthly reason why they should do so.

I come to the short point which the noble Lord has been good enough to put before your Lordships. I am sure he will appreciate that I have no authority to interfere with the time-table fixed for getting the Bill through the various stages in your Lordships' House but, in view of what the noble Lord has said, I will gladly give a promise to use my best endeavours to secure an extension of the normal time which elapses between the Committee stage and the Report stage here, so as to enable organizations and local authorities especially interested in this matter to consider the Bill and consult together should they so desire. I have reason to think that there will be a slightly longer period than usual before the next stage of the Bill, during which time it will be quite in order for any noble Lord to raise this point and discuss its merits. I hope the noble Lord will be satisfied with that.

LORD SALTOUN

I am obliged to my noble friend. The very fact that there has been an unprecedented demand for the Bill indicates the extensive interest in the matter in Scotland. I beg to withdraw my objection to the clause now.

On Question, Clause 4 agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Schedule [Minor Amendments]:

LORD MORRISON moved to insert at the beginning of the Amendments to the principal Act:

"Section eleven … In subsection (3) for the words 'or junior college' there shall be substituted the words 'junior college or other educational establishment', and at the end of the subsection there shall be inserted the words 'or for other activities of the school, college or establishment for which special clothing is desirable'".

The noble Lord said: May I say that all the Amendments to the Schedule deal with very minor matters. The purpose of this Amendment is two-fold. First, it is to enable education authorities to provide clothing suitable for physical exercise for pupils attending any educational establishment under their management, instead of for pupils at schools and junior colleges only, as at present. Secondly, it is to give similar power with regard to special clothing which is desirable for other activities of the school, junior college, or other educational establishment. Some of the work carried out in schools, including special schools, technical colleges, continuation classes, and so on, is of such a character that special protective clothing is desirable. The existing powers of education authorities are not wide enough to enable them to make this available. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 5, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

The purpose of the next Amendment is to enable the Secretary of State to direct that the premises of new educational establishments, as well as those of existing establishments, need not conform to the building regulations in cases where it would be unreasonable to require conformity. When a new school is being built in a built-up area it will often not be possible to secure a site or to erect buildings which conform in all respects to the building regulations. This Amendment is to cover exceptional cases that may arise. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 4, line 9, at end insert:

("Section twenty. In subsection (2) in the proviso after the words 'educational establishment' there shall be inserted the words ' (whether existing or proposed to be established) '").—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, lines 24 and 25, leave out ("an educational establishment") and insert ("a school").—(Lord Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

The purpose of my next Amendment is to enable an education authority to have a child medically examined where they think that he may require to be dealt with under the Mental Deficiency Acts after leaving school. At present authorities have the power to require the parent to submit the child for medical examination when it enters school, in order to enable the authorities to decide whether the child requires special educational treatment or is uneducable. It is desirable that the authority should likewise be able to obtain a medical opinion as to the mental condition of the child before they decide whether he is likely to require to be dealt with under the Mental Deficiency Acts after leaving school. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 6, line 17, at end, insert: ("Section fifty-seven— At the end of the section there shall be inserted the following subsection:— ' (2) The provisions of subsections (2) and (3) of Section fifty-four of this Act shall apply for the purpose of the duty of an education authority under the last foregoing subsection 1n like manner as those provisions apply for the purpose of the duty of the authority under subsection (1) of the said section'").—(Lors Morrison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MORRISON

The next Amendment deals with two small matters relating to Section 28 and Section 32. The purpose of the revised Amendment of Section 28 is to provide that the minimum age for employment is thirteen when the school-leaving age is fifteen, and fourteen when it is sixteen. The purpose of the revised Amendment of Section 32 is to make it clear that the minimum age for taking part in entertainments is the same as that for other forms of employment—namely, thirteen when the school-leaving age is fifteen, and fourteen when it is sixteen. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 8, leave out lines 3 to 13, and insert: ("Section twenty-eight— For paragraph (a) of subsection (1) as amended by the Fourth Schedule to the Education (Scotland) Act, 1945, there shall be substituted the following paragraph:—

Section thirty-two— In subsection (3) for the words from 'grant a licence' to 'residing in their area' there shall be substituted the words 'while the upper limit of the school age within the meaning of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1946, is. fifteen, grant a licence to a child who has actually attained the age of thirteen years and is residing in their area, and, while the said upper limit is sixteen, grant a licence to a child who has actually attained the age of fourteen years and is so resident'").—(Lord Morrison.)

EARL DE LA WARR

I should simply like to make it clear that we on this side of the House welcome this position and think it will be an improvement.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

House resumed.