HL Deb 18 November 1947 vol 152 cc750-60

5.7 p.m.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The Earl of Drogheda in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Provision for registration of persons of certain categories as colonial or foreign practitioners.

1.—(1) In the case of a person to whom this section applies, the General Medical Council (in this Part of this Act referred to as "the Council") may, if they think fit and subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, give a direction that he shall be registered in the medical register under this section.

(3) Registration of a person under this section shall be either (in accordance with the subsequent provisions of this Part of this Act in that behalf) as a colonial practitioner or as a foreign practitioner.

(5) Such a direction shall not be given except in the case of a person who is resident in the United Kingdom otherwise than for a temporary purpose.

LORD HENDERSON moved, in subsection (3), to leave out ("colonial") and to insert ("Commonwealth"). The noble Lord said: This is the first of a series of Amendments designed to remedy what the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, during the Second Reading stage, called "an important matter of terminology." The Medical Register has included separate lists for colonial and foreign practitioners since provision was first made for those lists in the Medical Act, 1886. The word "colonial" was used in the draft Bill to fit in with existing usage. I share the view of Lord Altrincham that it is wrong in 1947 to use a word which, in my opinion, had already in 1886 begun to acquire its modern restricted meaning, especially following the British North America Act of 1867. The unsuitability of the word to present-day conditions is obvious, and it will be seen from Clause 9 (4) of the Bill that the draftsmen were aware of it because it was considered necessary in the Bill to say what was meant by "colonial."

I am not surprised that this method of dealing with the matter did not commend itself to the noble Lord. Nor did it allay my own doubts. I indicated on Second Reading my willingness to have the matter reconsidered. This has now been done and the result is the proposed series of Amendments which are on the Paper. I am confident that they will be particularly welcome to the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition and to my noble friend the Leader of the House, who have both been specially concerned with Commonwealth relations in the recent past. It has not been easy to find an expression which exactly fulfils the intention, but consultations with the Department of Commonwealth Relations and the Colonial Office have taken place and have led to the joint conclusion that "Commonwealth," as a general term, is the best. It is true that the term "British Commonwealth of Nations" is recognized and accepted as connoting the present association of the Dominions and the United Kingdom as independent nations, but I am advised that the word "Commonwealth" alone can properly be given the wider meaning of all territories within the Empire, including the Dominions. The series of Amendments, therefore, propose the use of "Commonwealth" and thus achieve the intention of the Bill without perpetuating the offence to the Dominions which is inherent in the terminology of the Act of 1886. I hope and believe that, in proposing this I shall have the approval and support of all noble Lords. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 19, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth").—(Lord Henderson.)

LORD ALTRINCHAM

My Lords, since I was responsible for calling attention to the use of the words "colonial" and "foreign" in this Bill, I should like to thank the noble Lord warmly for the satisfactory manner in which he has dealt with the representations which we made. I am sure this feeling will be shared in all parts of the House. The word "colonial," in referring to fellow members of the Commonwealth of Nations, is an anachronism and improper in 1947, Indeed, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, that it was improper in 1886 when it was last done. When I first saw these Amendments I was a little disturbed by the fact that the word "Commonwealth" was used to cover not only members of the Commonwealth of Nations but also the Colonial Empire, and I presume also the trust territories. It is very interesting and satisfactory to me to hear that in the opinion of the legal advisers who deal with these matters, and particularly those of the Department of Commonwealth Relations, as well as the Colonial Office, the word "Commonwealth" can be held to cover all parts of what used to be called the British Empire. I believe that we are making a new departure and it is a profoundly interesting one. So far as I am concerned, all I was anxious about the noble Lord has done. The representatives of other members of the Commonwealth nations who come to this country by this Act will now be properly described. I am most grateful to the noble Lord for the way in which he has dealt with our representations and I congratulate him in succeeding in introducing these Amendments now.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HENDERSON

This and the Amendment at line 5 are intended to give effect to a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, on Second Reading. We agree that the wording of subsection (5) of Clause 1 could be improved but considered that the form of words suggested by Lord Llewellin might be somewhat difficult in administration, since it is easier to decide whether residence is temporary than whether it is permanent. We are therefore proposing an alternative form of words which would make the subsection read as follows: Such direction shall be given only in the case of a person who is resident in the United Kingdom and is resident therein otherwise than for a temporary purpose. I think the noble Lord will agree that this is an improvement. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 4, leave out ("not be given except") and insert ("be given only").—(Lord Henderson.)

LORD LLEWELLIN

I did draw attention to the great difficulty of understanding Clause 1 (5) as originally drawn in this Bill. I am one of those who dislike double negatives and that was the way in which it was drawn. I put down some Amendments to deal with this matter but frankly I prefer those put down by the noble Lord opposite. I think they are much better than mine and completely meet the point I made on Second Reading. The noble Lord said it was easier to discover whether residence was temporary than whether it was permanent, but I do not see how one is easier than the other. I think he must have meant to say that it is easier to decide when residence is temporary than when residence is intended to be permanent, which were my words. That difference I can see. If you decide that one is temporary, you are surely deciding that it is not permanent. I am much obliged to the noble Lord. I think we have improved the phrase so that it is more understandable of the people and that ought always to be the aim of this House.

VISCOUNT MAUGHAM

I rise only to say that, having given some attention to this particular point, and observing the difficulty which the original word occasioned, I am quite satisfied with the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, and I think it should be accepted.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HENDERSON

My Lords, I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 5, after ("Kingdom") insert ("and so resident").—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 [Persons registered under Defence Regulations or 10 & 11 Geo. 6. c. 19]:

LORD HENDERSON

I beg to move the three following Amendments, which are consequential.

Amendments moved—

Page 2, line 14, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth");

Page 2, line 34, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth");

Page 2, line 44, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth").—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 [Persons who have served in a medical capacity in His Majesty's forces overseas]:

LORD HENDERSON

I beg to move the two Amendments to Clause 3, which are also consequential.

Amendments moved—

Page 3, line 8, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth");

Page 3, line 13, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth").—(Lord Henderson)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4:

Other qualified persons in the U.K. in war circumstances.

4.—(1) Section one. of this Act shall apply to persons, other than such as are mentioned in the two last preceding sections, who, before the fourth day of August, nineteen hundred and forty-seven, have been permitted to enter, or to remain in, the United Kingdom in view of circumstances attributable to war, as to which, in case of doubt, a certificate of the Secretary of State shall be conclusive:

(2) The giving of a direction in the case of such a person shall be conditional on his satisfying the Council either—

  1. (a) that he holds some recognised colonial or foreign diploma or diplomas, or

and that he is of good character, and on his having been selected for employment in a medical capacity in a hospital or other institution for the time being approved by the Minister of Health or the Secretary of S: ate for the purposes of this section.

LORD HENDERSON moved, in subsection (1), to leave out ("apply to persons") and insert: ("apply—(a) to persons"). The noble Lord said: I would like to take the next four Amendments together because they are associated.

They meet a difficulty which has arisen in relation to the registration of Polish doctors under the Polish Resettlement Act. This Act authorizes the registration of Polish doctors, subject to certain conditions, up to the end of 1947. This date was inserted to correspond with the termination of temporary registration under the Defence Regulations. It was expected that all Polish doctors eligible under the Act would have arrived by that time and the majority have, in fact, arrived. There are, however, a considerable number of Poles who are still awaiting transfer to this country and with them a number of doctors, some of whom—43 is the present figure I am given—are not registered; and it appears probable that some of these will not arrive here by the end of the year. There is nothing in the Bill, as it stands, which would permit registration of these doctors, but we must clearly provide for them. The first Amendment enables such doctors to be registered by virtue of Clause 4.

The Amendments at lines 36 and 39 require any such doctor to fulfil the same conditions as have applied to registration of other Polish practitioners coming over under the Polish Resettlement scheme. Registration will be provisional in their case, as in the case of other doctors covered by Clause 4. The time limit of twelve months for application should allow ample time for the arrival of the Polish doctors concerned. I feel sure noble Lords will accept this Amendment, in view of its limited application. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 16, leave out ("apply to persons") and insert ("apply—(a) to persons").—(Lord Henderson.)

LORD LLEWELLIN

I think this is perfectly right if I may say so. There is just one question I would like to ask. Are these forty-three doctors, about whom my noble friend has spoken, with the Polish Forces, and coming back with the rest of the Polish Forces who are gradually being brought back to this country?

LORD HENDERSON

Yes.

LORD LLEWELLIN

Then quite clearly it is right that they should have exactly the same advantage as those who came back with units which were ordered to this country earlier. If it is to meet that case, I am certain that everybody will be in complete agreement.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HENDERSON

This is the first consequential Amendment of which I spoke. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 3, line 22, at end, insert— ("and (b) to persons not falling within the preceding paragraph but falling within paragraph (a) or (b) of subsection (3) of Section five of the Polish Resettlement Act, 1947 (which specified the classes of persons to whom that section applied):").—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HENDERSON

This also is consequential. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 36, after the second ("and") insert ("in the case of a person falling within paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of this section").—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HENDERSON

This is the fourth of the Amendments to which I referred., I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 39, at end insert ("or, in the case of a person falling within paragraph (a) or (b) of subsection (3) of Section five of the Polish Resettlement Act, 1947, on his being employed, or having been selected for employment, in a medical capacity for the care solely or mainly of persons being members of any of the Polish resettlement forces or otherwise as mentioned in paragraph (i) of that subsection").—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HENDERSON

The next two Amendments are consequential on an earlier Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Page 4, line 31, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth");

Page 4, line 43, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth").—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 [Registration fees]:

LORD HENDERSON

This is a similar consequential Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 5, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth").—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7 [Appeal to the Privy Council against refusal of application]:

LORD HENDERSON

These are similar consequential Amendments. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Page 5, line 23, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth");

Page 5, line 25, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth").—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8:

Power to register as colonial or foreign practitioners certain persons in the U.K. temporarily for employment in hospitals.

8.—(1) In the case of a person who satisfies the Council that he is or intends to be in the United Kingdom temporarily for the purpose of employment in a medical capacity in a hospital approved by the Council for the purposes of this Section, and that he holds some recognised colonial or foreign diploma or diplomas, the Council may, if they think fit, give a direction that he shall be registered in the medical register under this section, and a person as to whom such a direction is given shall be registered in the medical register without examination in the United Kingdom.

LORD LLEWELLIN moved, in subsection (1), after "hospital" to insert, "or other institution." The noble Lord said: On the Second Reading I pointed out that Clause 8, which everyone welcomed most heartily in this Bill, allows distinguished foreign medical men to come and practise in this country in association with our own doctors without there being any kind of breach of professional etiquette because those men were not on our medical register. In that Clause 1t: is provided only that they shall be so brought on to the register if they have employment in a medical capacity in a hospital. In Clause 4 (2) we deal with "a hospital or other institution" for the purposes which are dealt with in Clause 4. I pointed out that if you include "or other institution" in one clause of the Bill, and do not include it in this Clause 8, if one of these men happens to be working in some medical institution which is not technically a hospital, the provisions would not apply to him. I do not think that is what the Government or anybody means to imply. If "or other institution" had not been put in Clause 4 (2) it might not have been necessary to put it in here, but having inserted it there, I do suggest, in order to be quite safe, that we should have it in Clause 8 as well. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 40, at end insert ("or other institution")—(Lord Llewellin.)

LORD HENDERSON

In practice I understand that the occasion for approving institutions, other than hospitals, will very rarely arise, but I agree with the noble Lord and I am happy to accept his Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HENDERSON

The next two Amendments are similar consequential Amendments to those already agreed. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Page 5, line 42, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth");

Page 6, line 11, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth").—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

LORD HENDERSON moved, after Clause 8 to insert the following new clause:

" Substitution of" Commonwealth" for "colonial" in Part II of the Medical Act, 1886.

(1) In Part II of the Medical Act, 1886, for references to a colonial medical diploma and to a colonial practitioner, there shall be substituted references to a Commonwealth medical diploma and to a Commonwealth practitioner respectively, and references in any document to a colonial medical diploma and to a colonial practitioner shall be construed accordingly.

(2) References in section two of this Act to registration as a Commonwealth practitioner and to a Commonwealth diploma shall be construed as if the preceding subsection had been in force at the time of the registration in question."

The noble Lord said: This proposed new Clause 1s very simple. The first part of the Amendment is really consequential on the acceptance of the first Amendment, and it brings Part II of the Act of 1836 into harmony with the Bill as so amended. The second part of the Amendment applies the word "Commonwealth" where appropriate to persons who were temporarily registered under war-time regulations. I beg to move

Amendment moved— After Clause 8 to insert the said new clause.—(Lord Henderson.)

LORD LLEWELLIN

This is clearly consequential on the very wise Amendment with which the noble Lord started the proceedings on this Bill to-day.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 9 [Provisions as to interpretation of Part I]:

LORD HENDERSON

The next two Amendments, again, are consequential Amendments. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Page 6, line 29, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth");

Page 7, line 5, leave out ("colonial") and insert ("Commonwealth").—(Lord Henderson.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10:

PHARMACISTS.

Provision for registration as pharmacists of persons holding qualifications granted outside the United Kingdom.

10.—(1) The power of the Council of the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain to make by-laws under Section two of the Pharmacy Act, 1852, shall include power to make by-laws as to the registration as pharmaceutical chemists or as chemists and druggists under the Pharmacy Act, 1852, and the Pharmacy Act, 1868, of persons holding or having held a diploma as a pharmacist granted in a place outside the United Kingdom, or having passed the examinations necessary for obtaining such a diploma, providing for their registration (subject to such conditions as may be prescribed by the by-laws) either—

  1. (a) without examination in the United Kingdom, and without satisfying any requirements to which they would be subject apart from this section under by-laws made by virtue of paragraph (a) or (c) of Section four of the Poisons and Pharmacy Act, 1908 (which relate to preliminary practical training and to periods and courses of study); or

LORD HENDERSON moved, in subsection (1), after ("conditions") to insert ("as to character and otherwise"). The noble Lord said: This Amendment again meets a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, on Second Reading, when he urged that the Bill did not specifically require evidence of good character in the case of pharmacists to be registered under the Bill, though it does so in the case of doctors covered by Clauses 3 and 4. I understand that in the case of pharmacists the whole matter of conditions is left to the Pharmaceutical Society, and it is for them to lay down a condition as to good character, as they did in the case of bylaws made under Defence Regulation 32C. The words of the Amendment are inserted to ensure that the Pharmaceutical Society have power to insert such a condition, doubt having arisen, in view of the fact that the Defence Regulation specifically authorized such a condition, whether the wording of the Clause 1s sufficiently explicit. A further reason, if I may say so, was that my noble friend Lord Llewellin seemed to feel on the Second Reading a preference that if he were to receive poison he should have it from a chemist of good character! I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 29, after ("conditions") insert ("as to character and otherwise").—(Lord Henderson.)

LORD LLEWELLIN

I am obliged to the noble Lord once again for meeting my point. I believe that what I said was that with a man who had a lot of dealings with poison it was rather a good thing that he should be a man of good character. I thought that if that were so there was less chance, not only of myself but of any other noble Lord, and many other people of the populace, having administered to them the poisons which are in the care of these gentlemen. I was not thinking particularly of myself, but perhaps trying to safeguard all of us from having people without that good character in this extremely responsible position of a chemist or pharmacist.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

House resumed.