§ 6.35 p.m.
§ THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON rose to move to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Church Commissioners Measure, 1946, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. The right reverend Prelate said: I am sure that I shall have the sympathy of the noble Lords in the fact that on the first occasion that I have the privilege of addressing your Lordships I have to do so at the end of so exhaustive—4 will not say exhausting—a debate. However I am comforted by the reflection that the Measure I have to bring forward has so far been found entirely without controversy. At any rate, the Ecclesiastical Committee of both Houses have examined it with their usual care, and they have found no cause for controversy in it whatsoever. Therefore I will deal with the matter as briefly as I can, consonant with the courtesy due to the House.
§ The object of the Measure is to amalgamate the two great financial organizations of the Church of England the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and Queen Anne's Bounty. I believe noble Lords are sufficiently well aware of the history and of the purpose of these two organizations, though they vary to some extent. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners were first appointed in 1836, whereas Queen 767 Anne's Bounty goes back to 1704. The Ecclesiastical Commission handle the great common fund which was derived for the most part from the proceeds of some of the greater ecclesiastical properties, and Queen Anne's Bounty handles the fund which Her Gracious Majesty handed back to the Church, consisting of the first fruits and tenths that had been taken by the Crown in the reign of Henry VIII. Queen Anne handed them back to the Church in order that they might form a fund from which the poor clergy could be helped. Since those days the Bounty has had the duty of handling tithe and the tithe rent charge.
§ It is now proposed to amalgamate these two bodies, and it seems to me there are at least three good and obvious reasons why that amalgamation should take place. In the first instance, I think that the present organization is out of date. It does not represent anything like that democratic principle which is so dear to our hearts at the present time. It deals, of course, with business concerning the rank and file of the clergy, yet the rank and file of the clergy have not been represented on these bodies since they were instituted. The great new organization of the National Assembly of the Church of England has grown up, yet that Assembly has no power of sending representatives to these bodies. In short, the present organization is out of date. It is also clumsy and unwieldy. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners constitute a body which is not very great in size, but when you come to Queen Anne's Bounty there are as many as 700 Governors. I think that most of the 700 are not aware of the honour that has been done to them.
§ VISCOUNT SWINTONNo emoluments?
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDONNo emoluments. But it does seem that the time has come when a less unwieldy instrument for arranging the finances of the Church should be found. I think, also, that we ought to recognize that at the present time there is a certain amount of overlapping. Out of 12,000 incumbents in the country, 11,000 are helped by one or other of these two bodies, and a great number of them by both. It is extremely difficult for the incumbent to know to which body he should apply for certain purposes. If he wants to get his house 768 repaired, he applies to Queen Anne's Bounty; if he wants to get it improved, he applies to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners; if he wants to sell his house, he applies to Queen Anne's Bounty; if he wants to sell any of his glebe he goes to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. There are many occasions when the poor man does not know to which body he should apply, and very often he ought to apply to both.
I think it is clear that there is a good case for the amalgamation. What is it that it is proposed to do? It is proposed to make a new organization which shall be less unwieldy, but it is expected, if the arrangements are carried out as suggested, that the new organization will embody the old principle of incorporating into the Governors a number of high officers of State. We should be very sorry indeed to lose the old historical connexions with the high officers of State. There is no necessity for those officers to be members of the Church of England. In the past they have been very ready to accept the honour, and often have performed very great services to the Church. I understand that in this case they have already been approached, and have signified their readiness to serve. The new organization will also embody a democratic principle because the Church Assembly will have an opportunity of sending its representatives direct to it.
The organization will consist of about 100 Commissioners who will meet once a year, or more often if it is found necessary. The monthly business will be done by a Board of Governors, consisting of twenty-seven—quite an ample number for that type of work—but the day-to-day work will be done by an Estates and Finance Committee, consisting of seven members. I think the organization promises to be business-like and there is good reason to believe that it will meet the needs of the Church far better than the two organizations which are functioning at present can do so long as they remain separate. I think that is all I need say at the present moment, but if your Lordships would like to put any questions I can only say that I will endeavour to answer those questions to the very best of my ability. But if your Lordships receive this Measure with the same unanimity with which it has so far been received I shall indeed be a happy man.
§ Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Church Commissioners Measure, 1947, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(The Lord Bishop of London.)
§ VISCOUNT SWINTONMy Lords, I think it is singularly appropriate that this proposal to amalgamate these two great corporations should come before us when we have just concluded our discussion of a Companies Bill dealing with amalgamation and consolidation. I am sure that this Measure will commend itself to your Lordships. I hope that this consolidation will be a great success. It will certainly be a comfort in one department of life, at any rate. In these days the incumbent will know to which Department of State he has to apply—a thing he seldom knows at the present time. I trust that its consolidated accounts will show a most admirable result.
LORD RENNELLMy Lords, may I associate myself with what has been said by the noble Viscount who has just sat down. After a long and somewhat laborious session, this is a Measure which should not pass unnoticed, because here there is something of great historical significance. Some may regret the passing of old institutions. To those of us who have followed this Measure at all, it has been overdue for many years, so that in the regret that we may have at seeing a piece of our antiquity pass into history we can congratulate those who have succeeded in getting unanimity for this Measure.
§ LORD WALKDENMy Lords, on behalf of those associated with me on these Benches, I should like to say that we very heartily welcome this Measure. I do so personally as a Churchman. I am most anxious to see the position of the Church enhanced in the eyes of the public. This very business-like arrangement will certainly help in that direction. I trust that great blessings may come from the new arrangement, and that incumbents will be happier and less worried. I hope that the new arrangement will be able to put them in a more comfortable position in life. Many of them are living under considerable hardship, and I am sure that the public would wish to see them in a happier position than that in which they 770 are at the present time. I have great pleasure in supporting this Motion.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to and ordered accordingly.