§ General. Provisions.
§
Provided that—
(a) in the case of an order establishing or varying the constitution of a river board, it shall not be necessary to serve a notice on the council of any county district not specified in the order or on any navigation authority, conservancy authority or harbour authority, except such an authority from
78
whom functions are to be transferred to the board by the order; and
§ 2. Before making the order the Ministers shall consider any objections which may be duly made to the draft order and may in any case cause a public local inquiry to be held with respect to any objections to the draft order.
§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONThis Amendment is to cover our intention to bring in the Port of London Authority so that they can carry objections to Parliament. The original wording apparently did not cover this, so we have altered it. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 26, leave out from ("except") to ("and") in line 27, and insert ("the Port of London Authority in a case where the area affected by the order includes the whole or any part of the areas originally excluded from Section one of this Act")—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)
§ Lord ROCHESTERI want to thank the Government on behalf of the Port of London Authority for this Amendment and also, to save speaking again, for the consequential Amendment on page 30, line 17, which covers the same point. We are very grateful to the noble Earl for his personal interest in this matter, and are only sorry that it may appear to some other dock and harbour authorities not quite so beneficial as to the Port of London Authority.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONThe next is really a drafting Amendment. When the river boards come into operation fishery boards will be dissolved, so there is no necessity for mentioning them in this particular case. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 32, leave out. ("or fishery board").—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
Lord STRABOLGI moved, in paragraph 2, to omit all words after "Ministers" and to substitute:
may cause a public local inquiry to be held with respect to the provisions of the draft order, but shall cause such an inquiry to be held with respect to any reasonable objection duly made within the time and in the manner prescribed in paragraph 1 of this Schedule.
§ The noble Lord said: This is another attempt on my part, which I hope will be successful this time, to strengthen the 79 right of appeal against orders. If your Lordships would look at paragraph 2 at line 36 of page 29 you will see that the Minister "may" (and I am truncating the subsection very much) cause a public inquiry to be held, this being the case, of course, in sustained objections. The words I have put down on the Order Paper would make it obligatory on the Minister to hold a local inquiry when objections were sustained, and I hope your Lordships and my noble friend will think that is reasonable. This, at any rate, will do something to soften the blow of my noble friend's resistance to the Amendments we have tried to move to Clause 2. I hope my noble friend will find it reasonable, and I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 36, leave out from ("Ministers") to the end of line 39 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Strabolgi.)
§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONI do not quite see that the Amendment alters the position, because, after all, in the noble Lord's Amendment the words "reasonable objection" still leave the matter to be decided by the Minister; in other words, the Minister is still left with the choice as to whether he holds an inquiry or not. It would seem to be better to leave the matter open, as is usual, and for the Minister to decide in the normal way whether an inquiry is justified. However, I can certainly give the noble Lord an assurance that where there is a substantial and reasonable objection the Minister will hold a public inquiry.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONThe next is merely a drafting Amendment to rectify a slight omission in the original Bill. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 29, line 47, after ("area") insert—
("(c) in the case of an order providing that the whole or any part of the areas excluded from section one of this Act shall cease to be excluded from that section means the whole or, as the case may be, that part of those areas")—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
80§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONThe Amendment I now move is to make clear that the Port of London Authority if affected can take to Parliament objections on the defining of an area. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 17, leave out from ("except") to the end of line 18 and insert ("the Port of London Authority in a case where the river board area as proposed to be defined or altered includes the whole or any part of the areas originally excluded from section one of this Act").—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
§ Second Schedule:
§ Provisions as to River Boards, their Members, Committees, Proceedings, etc.
§ 3. Any members of the board other than the first members thereof shall come into office on the first day of November next after the day on which they are appointed, and shall hold office for a term of three years.
§ 5. If for any reason whatsoever the place of a member of the board becomes vacant before the end of his term of office, the vacancy shall be filled by the appointment of a new member by the Ministers, the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, or the council of a county or county borough, as the case may be, by whom the vacating member was appointed, and, in a case where the vacating member was appointed by a county council on the nomination of the council of a county district, the new member shall be appointed on the nomination of that county district.
§ 10.—(1) The board shall appoint a finance committee for regulating and controlling the finance of the board.
§ (2) The board may appoint a committee for any such general or special purpose as in the opinion of the board would be better regulated and managed by means of a committee.
§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONThe next Amendment deals with a slightly complicated point. Should a member of the board retire or otherwise cease to be a member and the Minister want to replace him, this Amendment would give the Minister power to consult merely the drainage area affected without having to take in the whole area of the river board. It is conceivable that in certain large areas there will be a considerable number of drainage boards and it would be a very elaborate procedure to have to consult them all, as would originally have been done. So where a member, who, perhaps, 81 was concerned with only one part of the area, falls out, this Amendment would allow the Minister to take a narrow concensus of opinion in order to replace him. It seems a wise simplification of the administration, and I hope noble Lords will agree to it. I beg to move—
§
Amendment moved—
Page.31, line 27, at end insert ("and, in a case where the vacating member was appointed to represent the drainage boards in the river board area, the new member shall be appointed after consultation with such of those drainage boards as appear to the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries to be concerned").—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ 6.8 p.m.
§ Lord STRABOLGI moved, in subparagraph (2) of paragraph 10, after board," where that word first occurs, to insert: "shall appoint a committee to exercise any of the functions of the board relating to fisheries, and", The noble Lord said: I should like to explain this Amendment very briefly. The words of the Bill are that the Bill may delegate to a committee appointed under this Bill any functions except the power over money—to borrow money, etc. That is too big in the view of the angling associations who approached me on the subject. No doubt my noble friend knows all about their objection as well. In the conversations in 1945 to which I have referred already this afternoon, the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries of the day promised that when these boards were set up there would be three committees on each board, one to deal with pollution, one with fisheries and one with land drainage. It is in order to get a special committee to deal with fisheries on each board that I am moving this Amendment. The next one is of course consequential. It will then require the board to appoint a committee to deal with fishery questions, and any other things so desired. I may say that the angling community attach a great deal of importance to this. They feel that such a committee could be very helpful to them and to the community, and I hope my noble friend will see his way to clarify the sub-paragraph in the way I suggest. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 3, after ("board") insert: ("shall appoint a committee to exercise any of the functions of the board relating to fisheries, and").—(Lord Strabolgi.)
§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONThis Amendment really alters "may" to "must"; that seems to be its object, I think. Under the Bill, river boards must appoint a finance committee and may appoint any other committees they consider to be necessary, whether for drainage or fisheries or any other purpose. I would like the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, to take into account the fact that in some areas there are practically no fishery interests, and in such areas I think it would be quite unnecessary to have a fisheries committee. It would very much restrict the powers of the boards, and I suggest that it world be better to allow the boards to choose which committees they wish to appoint. I suggest that where, clearly, fisheries play an important part in a river board area, a fisheries committee would certainly be set up by the board in their own interests. Without taking such action they could not handle problems which would come before them and get the information which they require. At the same time, it would be ridiculous to set up committees in cases where they are not required. With the assurance that fishery interests are very much in our minds, I do hope that the noble Lord will see his way to withdraw this Amendment.
Lord STRABOLGII am obliged for the explanation which the noble Earl has given, but I must say that I am not satisfied at all. The associations have certain powers and interests and when you are taking over those powers I suggest that the least that can be done is to appoint a committee to look after the special interests of these organizations. When my noble friend tells me that there are certain areas in which there are no fishery interests—
§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONAt any rate, only very small ones.
Lord STRABOLGI—or, if there are any, they are only very small ones, that makes it a little nearer to the actual position. I would point out, however, that in regard to large areas it may well be that some of them have only a very slight fishing interest because of the devastation of the rivers in the years which have passed, and that fishery interests ought, therefore, to be represented in the interests not only of fishing 83 but of food, recreation and everything else. I need not labour this point, but if I had got support for this Amendment, I am not sure that I would have let my noble friend off so lightly. In the circumstances, I can only hope for the best, and ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONThe next is a very simple Amendment. It simplifies general procedure when the Minister of Agriculture authorizes payment of the chairman of a board. It is a logical Amendment, and I hope that the Committee will accept it. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 33. line 6, leave out ("by order").—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)
§ Lord LLEWELLINDoes that mean that if it were done by order the amount that was being paid to him would be public, whereas if it is done by letter it would be private?
§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONThat is not the point. There is quite elaborate machinery, and it would not be secret in any event. This Amendment just simplifies the machinery.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONThis Amendment is on the same subject as the previous one. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 33. line 8, leave out ("may be specified in the order") and insert ("the Ministers think fit").—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONMy last Amendment on this Schedule is to allow reasonable expenses which can be paid to a board. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 33. line 11, at end insert—
("18. A river board may pay any reasonable expenses incurred by members or officers of the board or of any committee thereof in attending a conference or meeting convened by one or more river boards, or by any association of river boards, for the purpose of discussing any matter connected with the discharge of the functions of river boards, and any reasonable expenses incurred in purchasing reports of the proceedings of any such conference or meeting").—The Earl of Huntingdon.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ On Question, Whether the Second Schedule, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
§ Lord ADDINGTONMay I raise one point on the third paragraph regarding the date at which members of boards come into office? I think that November 1 is, a very inconvenient date from the point of view of county boroughs. One third of the members of the councils are only elected on that date, and the usual time for members of committees to be appointed by county boroughs is at the November meeting, which takes place on November 9, or on the nearest suitable subsequent day. I do not know if there is any particular point in having November 1 as the date here, and I wonder whether January 1 would not be a more convenient date on which to allow members elected on November 1 to be eligible for appointment for the next three years. I wish to raise one other point and that is whether it would not be well to have it provided that members of river boards nominated by counties and county boroughs should retire as soon as they cease to be members of the councils by whom they are nominated?
§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONI shall be very pleased to look into the noble Lord's first point. In regard to the second, I would join issue with the noble Lord. We have discussed this before, and I think I made it clear that the conception we have in mind about these boards is that there should be individuals on them who will act not in a sectional interest but in the general interests of the river board areas. It would be completely in contradiction of this to make local authority members retire from the boards 'when they cease to be members of their local authorities. We look to the boards as single units and not as representing sectional interests.
§ Lord ADDINGTONWould it not have some effect on agreement with regard to rating, that a man who has to agree upon the rate has ceased to be a member of a council? It might well be difficult for him to agree a rate for an area which he has ceased to represent—perhaps because he has been turned out by the ratepayers.
§ Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
85§ Third Schedule:
§ Application of Enactments in Relation to River Board Areas.
§ Enactments relating to Land Drainage.
§ 2. Section one, subsections (1) to (3) of Section two, and Sections … of the Land Drainage Act, 1930, and the First and Sixth Schedules to the said Act, and Section one hundred and eighteen of and the Twelfth Schedule to the Transport Act, 1947, shall not apply to a river board or a river board area, but without prejudice to their application (so far as applicable) to drainage boards (other than catchment boards) for drainage districts wholly or partly included in any river board area.
§ 15. References in Section eight of the Rivers Pollution Prevention Act, 1876, to a sanitary authority and to a district of a sanitary authority shall be construed as references to a river board and a river board area, respectively.
§ Lord SHEPHERDI understand that the Government are likely to accept this Amendment to paragraph 2, to insert the words "except subsection (3) thereof" after "Section one." In view of that I move it formally.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 33, line 38, after ("one") insert ("(except subsection (3) thereof)").—(Lord Shepherd.)
§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONAs a matter of fact, on mature consideration, and in view of the eloquence of the noble Lord on this subject, we are prepared to accept the Amendment.
§ Lord LLEWELLINMight we know from one noble Lord what it does?
§ Lord SHEPHERDIt extends, or at least it continues many of the powers provisionally held by the catchment boards under the Land Drainage Act of 1930. This subsection (3) provides that a drainage board shall exercise general supervision over all matters relating to drainage on land within its districts, and shall have such other powers and perform such other duties as are conferred on drainage boards by this Act. It is submitted that the river boards as successors of catchment boards should have the same powers.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
86§ The Earl of HUNTINGDONThe point at issue in the next Amendment is that while we may transfer powers regarding pollution to them we do not want the river boards to maintain sewers, or to take over powers regarding them which local authorities have. That is the intention of this Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 35, after ("in") insert ("Section six and").—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)
§ Lord LLEWELLINI must say I think that this is right. A whole lot of the argument in this House to-day has been to the effect that too many of our rivers bear too much resemblance to sewers, but I am very glad that it is not going to be further mixed up by including the matters upon which the noble Earl is now moving this Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Lord SHEPHERDIn view of the Amendment just made, I shall not move my Amendment to leave out "Section eight of" in paragraph 15 of the Amendment to add a proviso regarding Section six. May I take this opportunity of expressing my gratitude for the very great tolerance your Lordships have shown to me to-day?
§ Third Schedule, as amended, agreed to