HL Deb 12 August 1947 vol 151 cc1274-8

Page 74, line 25, at end insert the following new clause:

("Setting up of Electricity Appeal Tribunal.

.—(1) Forthwith upon the dissolution of tan Electricity Commissioners the Minister shall by order constitute a tribunal (in this Act referred to as the Electricity Appeal Tribunal) which shall consist of a chairman who shall be a barrister or solicitor of not less than seven years' standing appointed by the Lord Chancellor and two other members appointed by the Minister, one of whom shall be a person having experience in the generation and supply of electricity and the other of whom shall have had experience in commercial matters.

No member of the Central Authority or of any area board and no person employed by them shall be qualified to be a member o the Tribunal.

(2) It shall be the duty of each area board to submit to the Electricity Appeal Tribunal the tariffs from time to title fixed by them and the Tribunal after such enquiry as they think fit may either refuse to confirm any tariff or may confirm it with such alterations if any as they think fit and no such tariff shall come into force until it has been confirmed by the Tribunal.

(3) It shall be the duty of the Electricity Appeal Tribunal to consider—

  1. (a) any representation from—
    1. (i) any local authority having jurisdiction in the area of any area board;
    2. (ii) such number of consumers not being less than twenty as the Tribunal think 1275 sufficient having regard to the population of the area;
    3. (iii) any consumers who in the opinion of the Tribunal sufficiently represent any particular trade business or interest in the area
  2. with respect to the prices charged for the supply of electricity by the Central Authority or any area board;
  3. (b) any representation in regard to the matters specified in the preceding paragraph which may be made to the Electricity Appeal Tribunal by a consultative council either upon the request of any person or otherwise;
  4. (c) any question which may be referred to it for consideration by the Minister or by the Central Authority.

When the Electricity Appeal Tribunal have considered any such representation or question as aforesaid they shall report to the Minister upon their conclusions and shall make such representations to the Minister in connection with those conclusions as they think expedient.

(4) Any order made under this section may contain such incidental and consequential provisions for the payment of remuneration to members of the Tribunal by the Central Authority with the approval of the Treasury either by way of annual salary or of fees, and for determining the procedure of the Tribunal as the Minister thinks fit.

The procedure of the Tribunal shall be such as to secure that a member of the Tribunal shall not have any special interest such as may tend to interfere with his impartial consideration of the representation or question made or referred to them.

(5) The Tribunal shall be furnished by the Central Authority with such accommodation as appears to them to be requisite for the proper discharge of their functions and with such clerks, officers and staff as appear to them with the approval of the Treasury, as to numbers to be requisite for the purpose and the Central Authority shall pay to the clerks, officers and staff of the Tribunal such remuneration as they may, with the approval of the Treasury determine.

(6) The Minister and every electricity board shall provide the Tribunal with such information and other assistance as the Tribunal think expedient for the purpose of assisting them to discharge their functions.

(7) The Tribunal shall make an annual report to the Minister of their proceedings and the Minister shall lay the report before each House of Parliament together with a statement of any action which has been taken by him in consequence of any recommendation made to him by the Tribunal during the period to which the report relates.

(8) Until such time as an Order is made under this section the powers and duties conferred and imposed by this section upon the Electricity Appeal Tribunal upon its constitution shall by virtue of this provision be exercised and discharged by the Electricity Commissioners.")

The Commons disagreed to this Amendment for the following Reason:

Because the said Amendment is unnecessary and inconsistent with the provisions of the Bill.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I beg to move, That this House doth not insist on this Amendment.

Your Lordships sought to insert a new clause providing for a tribunal to be set up to investigate matters of complaint. I am moving that your Lordships do not insist on the said Amendment; but I would like to say this: I can give your Lordships an undertaking which I hope will go a long way to satisfy your Lordships' not unnatural fears. Noble Lords will remember that the Bill provides for a consultative council. If an area board, in fixing its tariffs, is in the opinion of the consultative council wrong in this, that or the other respect, the consultative council can consult with the area board; and if they get no satisfaction from the area board the consultative council can go to the Central Authority. The Central Authority have power to give orders to the area board about this and they can therefore consult with the Central Authority. If they get no satisfaction from the Central Authority they can then go and consult the Minister. The Minister is a very busy man and he very often does not have adequate time to give to the consideration of these difficult problems. Your Lordships thought therefore that there ought to be some kind of tribunal there interposed in order to be quite certain that matters were properly considered.

The Minister in another place gave what I think your Lordships will realize was a conciliatory reply. He obviously appreciated the force of this point. I feel a little guilty, because I know the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, had to go abroad on business, and before he went away I led him to suppose that we might be able to make some amendment in the Bill itself. It was only after having tried to make this amendment and coming up against technical difficulties that I sought to retreat from that position. The noble Viscount's being away made it more difficult. I am going, however, to give this assurance, in the following terms.

Where there is disagreement on any substantial issue under Clause 7 between a consultative council and the Central Authority, the Minister will remit the matter for consideration and report by a person or persons appointed by him after consultation with the Lord Chancellor.

To apply that to Scotland is rather difficult, because in Scotland there are these two bodies, the board in the north of Scotland and the Scottish area boards; but I can go as far as this—though the precise way of giving effect to it in Scotland would have to be considered. In the case of Scotland a similar appointment of an independent person or persons will be made by the appropriate Minister. I hope and believe that with that assurance your Lordships will be satisfied that the Minister, in deciding this question, will not do so lightly or inadvisedly or without proper advice as to the appropriate course to take. I beg to move.

Moved, That this House doth not insist on the said Amendment to which the Commons have disagreed—(The Lord Chancellor.)

VISCOUNT SWINTON

My Lords, I think the House will have heard with satisfaction the undertaking which the noble and learned Viscount has given, and will be grateful to him for the trouble he has taken in this matter. This is really a matter on which there is no serious issue now between us; and I would like to say that the Minister in another place met this in a very sympathetic spirit. He said: I want to say at once that with the principle embodied in this Amendment from another place I am in full sympathy. It is quite true that attempts were made to get words which could be put in the Bill; and I must say quite frankly that where you have an important issue like this it is much more desirable to have it set out in the Bill and not by way of an undertaking. I am sure the Lord Chancellor and the Minister will agree with that. But the assurance given, which I am sure will be fully carried out, really means, first of all, that there is to be a tribunal. It is common ground to us that if these things can be settled by the consultative councils, so much the better. We do not want to send things to the tribunal if they can be settled amicably and satisfactorily. If they cannot be so settled there will be a tribunal. It will, I understand, be of the kind that we proposed, with a good lawyer as the chairman. I have a great respect for good lawyers; they make very good chairmen. And there will be practical people silting on the tribunal.

The actual words of the Lord Chancellor were, I think, "any substantial issue" There are two matters which occur to me. I think the Minister in another place acceded to both. There is the question of the maximum charge, which is obviously "a substantial matter." It need not go automatically if there is agreement; if there is disagreement, then it will go automatically. The other thing is any complaint about a charge which may be within the approved maximum charge. I do not want petty matters to go. On the other hand, if the issue is substantial, a matter of real substance, then it would go. As I understand it, I have not a: all enlarged the scope of the undertaking given, as the Lord Chancellor would agree, I think, and, if that is so, then we should all like to see it in the Bill. I should like to have an assurance that I have interpreted the undertaking correctly.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The noble Lord has interpreted the undertaking as I understand it.

On Question, Motion agreed to.