HL Deb 05 August 1947 vol 151 cc941-9

3.3 p.m.

LORD HENDERSON

My Lords, I beg to move, That the Special Order on the National Health Service (Superannuation) Regulations, 1947, as reported from the Special Orders Committee, on the 17th July last, be approved. The broad purpose of these regulations is to set up a superannuation scheme for all persons engaged in the National Health Service. The scheme will provide benefits, substantially the same as those of the Civil Service, to all employees of regional boards, governing bodies of teaching hospitals, executive councils, and other bodies set up under the Act; and also the practitioners providing the general medical and dental services—a total of about 300,000 persons. The scheme is on an insurance basis, with contributions reckoned on remuneration—six per cent. for the employee and eight per cent. for the employer, except in the case of manual workers, where the rates are five per cent, and six per cent. respectively. The Exchequer will pay the employers' contributions from the accounts of hospital boards, and other bodies. As in the case of Civil Service pensions, there is a lump sum retiring allowance as well as a pension. Provision is also made for a death gratuity for death during service, a pension for incapacity and an injury allowance. Benefits are based on length of service and final average remuneration. As a variation from the Civil Service scheme, a widow's pension will be issu-able in substitution for a part of the married man's retiring lump sum allowance.

As your Lordships will have seen, the regulations are long and intricate. This was found to be unavoidable in view of the very wide field covered and the unique provisions that have been made for interchangeability, which is complete between the various parts of the Health Service, local government, Civil Service and teaching service. In this connexion, I might point out that two important objects have been kept in mind in the preparation of the scheme. The first was to preserve existing rights, so far as possible, of all who come into the scheme, and to ensure that nobody will be worse off than they were before. The second was to ensure, while keeping the needs of the various services in mind, that the scheme will be of definite value in enabling participants to secure wider experience by transferring from one kind of work to another. In view of the complexity of the regulations, I am glad to be able to tell your Lordships that an explanatory booklet is now being prepared and will soon be available to all who ire interested. It will contain typical example; of how the scheme will work out. It is. also proposed to issue leaflets to help those who will have to exercise options.

The interchangeability provisions will entail the extension and modification of the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1937, and many Local Act superannuation schemes will be similarly affected. Officers who have been subject to non-statutory superannuation provisions will, in some cases, and may in others, at the Minister's discretion, continue in their present scheme in the same conditions as hitherto. The most important of these non-statutory schemes are the Federated Superannuation Scheme for Nurses and Hospital Officers, and the Federated Superannuation System for Universities. Those subject to other schemes will be allowed to carry on with them if they can show that otherwise there would be undue hardship. An under- taking has been given that any dispute as to hardship will be referred to tribunals set up to deal with compensation under Section 68 of the Act. Some, voluntary hospital officers have only an expectation of pension after long service, with no actual entitlement. The regulations provide that this expectation will be recognized and assessed, and, with Treasury approval, a supplementary payment will be made in addition to pension earned under the new scheme. This provision will be administered generously and sympathetically.

Finally, my Lords, I should point out that the regulations have been discussed in draft with some sixty-five representative bodies and have met with general satisfaction, and, so far as I am aware, no opposition. This can, I think, be taken as a certain indication of their completeness and soundness. I think, I may fairly claim that the scheme is an agreed scheme. I feel sure, therefore, that your Lordships will welcome these regulations as providing a superannuation scheme which will he of great value in promoting the efficiency and security of those entering the new Health Service. I beg to move.

Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on the 17th of July last, be approved.—(Lord Henderson.)

3.8 p.m.

THE EARL OF MUNSTER

My Lords, these regulations, for which you are asked to give an affirmative Resolution this afternoon, are highly complicated in character and very formidable in detail. Although a memorandum was submitted by the Minister of Health to the Special Orders Committee which slightly simplified the meaning of these draft regulations, it was regrettable that towards the end of last week there were insufficient copies placed in the Printed Paper Office by the Minister, and indeed there were no further copies for distribution. As the noble Lord himself has said, this draft Order affects some 300,000 people and, besides this vast number of individuals who are anxious to comprehend and understand the scheme, it is also the duty of both Houses of Parliament closely to scrutinize the contents of the Order. It seems, therefore, if I may say so, slightly unfortunate that this simplified version which the noble Lord tells us is now in course of preparation was not available to noble Lords and to another place before the consideration of this massive document. I sincerely hope that, if any further complicated regulations are made under this Act, the understanding of them may be made easier for your Lordships by the circulation well in advance of some simplified form of the Order.

It is not our intention to divide on this Resolution, but there are various questions I should like to ask and some criticisms I should like to make, and I have given notice to the noble Lord accordingly. This scheme, it is true, is a contributory scheme based upon remuneration and, as the noble Lord says, it is very similar to the one in operation for the Civil Service. I feel sure that the Government have every desire to be fair and equitable to all concerned. Indeed, if that were not so, the task of the Minister of Health to bring into the working of the Act those who have not yet decided to come in would be made infinitely more difficult. I think it would be well to recall that the medical profession, although having been brought into the discussion by the Minister, is not committed in any way whatever to the details embodied in this Order, nor indeed will they be so committed until they have further knowledge of all the other details which are necessary to deal with the Government's proposals under the principal Act, and, furthermore, until they have ascertained the views of the profession.

The few questions that I have to ask are very brief in character, and the first one is about transfer and interchangeability. As I understand this scheme, it provides a reasonable measure of interchangeability between the various parts of the Health Service and the other services which are subject to statutory superannuation schemes, including, I believe, the Civil Service and the local government service. But if your Lordships have followed this document carefully you will have observed that there is no provision at all for a medical officer who transfers from local government service to university service. It did seem to me that there might be one possible solution, if the universities had been regarded as employing authorities for the purposes of the draft regulations so far, and only so far, as the medical members of their departments were concerned.

My next point deals with the somewhat technical question of what are called the "added years." I do myself believe that some concession should be made to doctors for their long period of training and, therefore, the relatively late age of entry into this scheme, winch in fact must prevent them from qualifying for the maximum possible pension at the normal retiring age. The non-medical staff can enter this scheme quite freely at the age of eighteen, and every day of their service counts for remuneration, but that is not the case with the medical officer, who is penalized, and bound to be penalized under this scheme, for the years which are spent in qualifying for his profession and which are not to be reckoned at all. It stands to reason that he cannot possibly enter the service before he is about twenty-three or twenty-four, and that he will be forced to retire at a later age than members of the non-medical staff who, as I have said, enter the service at eighteen.

So much for the young practitioner. As for the older doctor, I should myself have liked to see some concession by way of added years for the elderly doctor who will enter the service on the appointed day. Most of the pension benefits which are described in the Order are available after ten years, and if the retiring age were settled and stated to be sixty-five, the general effect would be to exclude from all the benefits most of the practitioners who were over the age of fifty-five on entry. It is clear that the noble Lord cannot concede me either of these points in these draft regulations, because your Lordships have to accept or reject them as a whole; you cannot amend them. But, if he is unable to concede me these points, perhaps he could give me an assurance that no medical practitioner who is entitled to enter the service will be denied the opportunity for superannuation because his age is such as to make him unable to complete the varying periods for the particular benefits which are mentioned. I attach some importance to that assurance, and I trust that the noble Lord will be able to give it to me.

Finally, I would refer your Lordships to the immediate cover proposals. In the draft regulations there is no form of immediate cover provided at all. The benefits are dependent entirely upon the qualifying period of ten years or five years, as the case may be, and it does frankly seem to me that it would have been wiser to provide immediate cover for the practitioners against permanent incapacity and for the widow of a medical practitioner in the event of his death. At the same time, I should have liked to see embodied in this scheme a provision For an immediate minimum pension which would operate immediately on entry, even if such a scheme involved a higher rate of contribution to all concerned.

I apologize for delaying your Lordships for these few moments on these Orders, when there are other important matters to be dealt with. But, as the noble Lord has rightly said, these proposals are of the greatest importance to over 300,00o persons, and it is the responsibility of Parliament to examine carefully all of these draft Orders, more especially those draft Orders which amend other Acts of Parliament. As the time goes on this scheme may require considerable modification, and I certainly trust that the Minister will consider the proposals which have been, made during our brief discussion here and during the discussion which took place in another place. If it is not possible for him to accept any of these proposals to be embodied in these regulations, then at least he can give us the assurance that, in the event of the regulations having to be modified, the Minister will carefully consider all the points and all the proposals which have conic to mind during the course of our discussions. With those few remarks, I, on behalf of the noble Lords on this side of the House, support the Motion made by the noble Lord.

3.18 p.m.

LORD HENDERSON

My Lords, I would first like to express my gratitude to the noble Earl for indicating that the draft regulations are not to be opposed, but will be accepted. I would also like to express my grateful appreciation to him for having been good enough to give me advanced notice of the particular points which he proposed to raise. .As we are all aware, the scheme is a very intricate and difficult scheme, but his action has enabled me to give, although not answers that will be wholly satisfactory to him, at least answers which do indicate that the points he has raised have been seriously considered.

First of all, the noble Earl referred to the memorandum by the Minister which was attached to the draft regulations, and I can only say I am sorry if any noble Lord was unable to obtain a copy of this memorandum. I am not sure where the responsibility lies in such a matter but, if there is any fault resting with the Ministry of Health, I have no hesitation in offering an apology on their behalf. As regards the issue of the explanatory booklet, to which the noble Earl referred, I have a good deal of sympathy with him on this point. I think that both his August Bank Holiday task arid mine would have been much simpler if we had had a guide to the regulations that we are discussing this afternoon. But I think the noble Earl will realize that explanatory material for general distribution could not safely have been prepared and circulated until the scheme was in the form approved by Parliament. As I said earlier, the booklet and leaflets and other material are in course of preparation and will shortly be issued. This will greatly assist those who are concerned to understand arrangements which may affect their future careers.

As regards the question of transfer and interchangeability, the noble Earl pointed out that the scheme does not make any provision for medical officers who transfer from local government service to university service. That is quite true. The simple fact is that such interchange cannot be dealt with in these regulations. To provide what the noble Earl has in mind would, I am advised, be ultra vices the powers in the Act under which the regulations are made. But I should like to add that the Ministry are in sympathy with the point and it will be borne in mind when an opportunity offers itself for legislation amending the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1937.

As to the suggestion that the scheme should cover the staffs of medical schools, the terms of the Act are such that it can only cover those actually engaged in Health Services: its scope cannot be extended beyond the officers of such Services. The noble Earl also appealed for added years in respect of practitioners' training. I am afraid I cannot hold out my hope of this preferential treatment being given to doctors. Most professions require a lengthy training period, and if a concession allowing training years for doctors to be counted were made the same concession would have to be accorded to every profession. No such concession appears in any existing scheme. All doctors in their last year in hospital after qualification will enter the new scheme. In the normal case this will mean that they are twenty-three or twenty-four years of age, and can look forward to forty years' service and to earning their full pension on retirement. That being the position, I do not think the arrangement involves any injustice or unfairness to the doctor.

LORD LLEWELLIN

I have it at the back of my mind that when we had occasion to recruit additional technical men at the Admiralty—civil engineers and people of that sort—we did have some requirement for giving added years.

LORD HENDERSON

I will certainly have the point looked into, but my information is that there is no public scheme at present under which it is done. The next point raised by the noble Earl was that of the elderly doctor. He invited me to give an assurance on that point. I cannot believe he had any great expectations that I should do so. This is another case where preferential treatment cannot be given. To give a concession would have repercussions on other groups within the scheme. The elderly practitioner has counted upon the proceeds from the sale of his practice to provide for his retirement. He can no longer sell his practice, but in lieu he will receive compensation under the Act. He will not be any worse off under this arrangement, but in addition he may earn something in the future under the new scheme. He may, for example, continue for an extra year or two instead of retiring at sixty-five in order to complete the qualifying period of ten years for pension.

THE EARL OF MUNSTER

Provided the Minister allows it.

LORD HENDERSON

That is so, but I think I can give an assurance that the Minister will deal with it in a sympathetic and understanding manner. In any case, after five years, he will be entitled to any of the lump sum benefits. I think in these circumstances it does not appear that the case is unjust, as the noble Earl tended to indicate.

I come to the two points—the immediate cover and minimum pension. Both these points are aimed at securing a right to a minimum benefit immediately on entry into the scheme without any qualifying period. The provision with regard to a qualifying period is contained in all existing public service schemes and there does not seem to be any good reason for departing from it in the present scheme. The matter was carefully considered when the principles of the scheme were being settled, and I cannot hold out any hope of the scheme being modified at this stage to provide for immediate cover and minimum pension. I will, however, bring the arguments of the noble Earl to the attention of the Minister, who will I am sure bear them in mind when the operations of the scheme are being reviewed.

The noble Earl finally asked whether the suggestions which had been made in the discussions in this House and elsewhere would be taken into consideration. Well, my Lords, no scheme can be regarded as definitive for all time. However much care is taken it is impossible to foresee everything. I suggest that the scheme before your Lordships is a good piece of work, but even so there may come to light defects which require amendment in the light of experience. Whatever modifications are found to be necessary will be made so that we may have a scheme that will be to the best advantage of all employed in our National Health Service. I think I have covered the various points raised by the noble Earl, and I hope that your Lordships will now be ready to give your approval to the regulations.

On Question, Motion agreed to.